MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[diggerdomer]

Read my initial post, diggerdomer.

I did. I read it again before I posted previously. My question still stands: what instruments are specifically prohibited at Mass? I just don’t see anywhere that the Magisterium, or the CDWDS prohibits, specifically, this or that instrument. Do you?

 

[Melchior_1]

I did. I read it again before I posted previously. My question still stands: what instruments are specifically prohibited at Mass? I just don’t see anywhere that the Magisterium, or the CDWDS prohibits, specifically, this or that instrument. Do you?

It doesn’t prohibit SPECIFIC instruments, it speaks of instruments that are “secular” in nature. From what I have seen on these boards there are three lines of thinking with this;

1. Provided the proper authorities are contacted there is a degree of flexibility as it pertains to the use of instruments (which is why none are specifically listed). There are several times within the documents that people post where exceptions can be made. One such example apparently is Mozart the Mason’s Requiem Mass that everyone loves so much (despite the fact he was a Mason). In the link that Elizium23 provided there are some of these exceptions, although s/he didn’t feel it was necessary to post that.
2. Nothing is allowed except the Organ. Period.
3. If the Organ is a secular instrument, people’s heads explode (this is a joke, people. I expect you to laugh).

 

[diggerdomer]

It doesn’t prohibit SPECIFIC instruments, it speaks of instruments that are “secular” in nature. From what I have seen on these boards there are three lines of thinking with this;

1. Provided the proper authorities are contacted there is a degree of flexibility as it pertains to the use of instruments (which is why none are specifically listed). There are several times within the documents that people post where exceptions can be made. One such example apparently is Mozart the Mason’s Requiem Mass that everyone loves so much (despite the fact he was a Mason). In the link that Elizium23 provided there are some of these exceptions, although s/he didn’t feel it was necessary to post that.
2. Nothing is allowed except the Organ. Period.
3. If the Organ is a secular instrument, people’s heads explode (this is a joke, people. I expect you to laugh).

Where does it say nothing is allowed except the organ? Gee, if that’s true, every Catholic Mass I have ever attended has been illicit.

 

[Melchior_1]

Where does it say nothing is allowed except the organ? Gee, if that’s true, every Catholic Mass I have ever attended has been illicit.

Or heretical. Or modernist. Maybe a dash of progressive liberalism too. And heaven forbid you think that other instruments other than the Organ are fine.

But I have some good news for you! You’re about to be bombarded with walls of text! Have fun reading.

 

[Cat]

By their very nature of common associaton with secular music, drums, electric guitars, bongos, electric bass guitars and the like are not suitable for sacred music. The bottome line is this, what you see being used at a concert featuring Miley Cyrus, Green Day, REM, Duran Duran, Van Halen, Taylor Swift, Carrie Underwood and the like is not suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Just because an instrument was mentioned in the psalms, or was in use at the time of Christ, that does not necessarily make it fit for liturgical use. Remember that the directives were very specific for what could and could not be done during Ancient Israel’s cultic sacrificial worship. Furthermore, whatever King David was doing in front of the Ark was not a part of Ancient Israel’s cultic sacrificial worship. The cultic sacrificial form of worship used by Ancient Israel was dictated directly by God, Himself, because it pointed to the supreme Sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass makes us present at Calvary. It is the Church’s supreme form of prayer. It should be treated with the dignity, solemnity and majesty it deserves. The Venerable Pope John Paul II rightly obseved this in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

Unfortunately, as I have experienced it, publishing houses seem to think that they have carte blanche to do whatever they see fit with regards to the music that is used at the Mass. What really saddened me was when I had to leaf through Spirit and Song. The last song that OCP has in that book (which is supposed to be meant for use for the Mass) is “Lean on Me”. Yes, that “Lean on Me.” That is a secular song, covered by both R&B and Reggae bands. Can you honestly say with a straight face that this song is suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? If you say yes, then, I will make a case that we could very well use U2’s Gloria, since that song at least has Latin in the refrain.

The artists and genres that you mentioned did not originate the instruments that they used. Long before they picked up guitars and drums, the instruments were in use in sacred/religious settings.

Therefore it is not the Church that is using secular instruments, it is the secular musicians who have borrowed the sacred instruments.

And therefore, I think it is very appropriate and admirable for the Church to take those instruments back again and use them for their original sacred purpose.

 

[ProVobis]

The artists and genres that you mentioned did not originate the instruments that they used. Long before they picked up guitars and drums, the instruments were in use in sacred/religious settings.

Therefore it is not the Church that is using secular instruments, it is the secular musicians who have borrowed the sacred instruments.

And therefore, I think it is very appropriate and admirable for the Church to take those instruments back again and use them for their original sacred purpose.

I’d like to go on record to say that I oppose the playing of the piano in the Church. I love the instrument, I learned to play when I was young, and I gave two school recitals, but I just don’t think it’s appropriate in Church. Maybe concert halls and bars but not church. I’d take a lousy organist over a highly skilled piano player anytime. Sorry.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I have to chuckle at the discussion about the organ being THE sacred instrument of choice. I guess none here ever listen to jazz where the organ is one instrument of choice, can’t get more secular than that! Please don’t use the argument that the jazz organ is disqualified from the discussion because it is electronic or electric because the majority of church organs are as well.

Any instrument can and will be defined as secular by someone so I concentrate on those instruments that fit the culture of the particular parish as acceptable.

I also dislike the piano at Mass, especially when there is a fantastic pipe organ right across the choir loft from it!

 

[benedictgal]

The artists and genres that you mentioned did not originate the instruments that they used. Long before they picked up guitars and drums, the instruments were in use in sacred/religious settings.

Therefore it is not the Church that is using secular instruments, it is the secular musicians who have borrowed the sacred instruments.

And therefore, I think it is very appropriate and admirable for the Church to take those instruments back again and use them for their original sacred purpose.

Cat, with all due respect, that is a stretch. These instruments have a primary association with secular music. If you see drum kits, electric guitars, bass guitars and the like, set up in a hall, or in an arena, you know good and well that it’s for a pop/secular concert.

You are also failing to look at the genre, which is also key, and, also something that every Pope since Pope St. Pius X has brought up. Pope Paul VI, himself, noted that not everything is fit to cross the threshold.

Inasmuch as Protestants use these for their services, that does not necessarily make them fit for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

I have to chuckle at the discussion about the organ being THE sacred instrument of choice. I guess none here ever listen to jazz where the organ is one instrument of choice, can’t get more secular than that! Please don’t use the argument that the jazz organ is disqualified from the discussion because it is electronic or electric because the majority of church organs are as well.

Any instrument can and will be defined as secular by someone so I concentrate on those instruments that fit the culture of the particular parish as acceptable.

I also dislike the piano at Mass, especially when there is a fantastic pipe organ right across the choir loft from it!

Then, with all due respect, you are chuckling at the Church, because she has said this in her documents:

The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things.

And, Pope Benedict, as well, who said this, according to an article from Zenit:

On Sept. 13, 2006, in his visit to that city, the Pontiff blessed the organ of the “Alte Kapelle” [Old Chapel] there, where his brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, was once director.

Benedict XVI told his visitors he was pleased with their visit. “It revives in me the memory of that wonderful day, in which I was able to bless the new organ, the ‘Benedikt-Orgel,’ in the ‘Old Chapel,’” reported the Vatican press office.

He said: “I have an indelible memory of how – in the harmony of that wonderful organ, of the choir conducted by Kohlhaufel, and the luminous beauty of the church – we experienced the joy that comes from God. Not just the ‘spark of the gods’ of which Schiller speaks, but truly the flame of the Holy Spirit that brought us to feel in our innermost being what we also know from the Gospel of St. John: That he himself is joy. And this joy was communicated to us.”

The Pope added how pleased he was that this organ “continues to play and to help people perceive something of the splendor of our faith – a splendor kindled by the Holy Spirit himself. With it, the organ carries out an evangelizing function, proclaims the Gospel in its own way.”

In another report, this time from CNA, the Holy Father had this to say about the organ:

the Holy Father arose and spoke to the importance of music in the liturgies of the Church emphasizing the “king of musical instruments,” the organ.

“Music and song are more than an embellishment of worship,” said the Pope, “they are themselves part of the liturgical action.”

The organ, "transcending the merely human sphere, as all music of quality does, evokes the divine. … It is capable of echoing and expressing all the experiences of human life. The manifold possibilities of the organ in some way remind us of the immensity and the magnificence of God."

Pope Benedict continued, offering an analogy between the organ and the Church itself explaining, “Just as in an organ an expert hand must constantly bring disharmony back to consonance, so we in the Church, in the variety of our gifts and charisms, always need to find anew, through our communion in faith, harmony in the praise of God and in fraternal love.”

I would have a very hard time chuckling at these references.

It’s also not about the culture of a particular parish; rather, it’s what the Church sets forth in her liturgical documents.

 

[benedictgal]

I did. I read it again before I posted previously. My question still stands: what instruments are specifically prohibited at Mass? I just don’t see anywhere that the Magisterium, or the CDWDS prohibits, specifically, this or that instrument. Do you?

Diggerdomer, there is a huge difference between secular and sacred music. Pretty much what you see at a secular concert (Mily Cyrus, Green Day, U2, etc) should not be used at the Mass. It’s that simple. Just because OCP has music that uses these instruments, that does not necessarily mean that these are okay. They are not.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Perhaps the Vatican doesn’t listen to jazz! Let’s just face the fact that any and all instruments are used in secular music and, in the case of the organ, even preferred by secular musicians of a particular genre. Regardless of what some may think, reverence is in the heart not the ear. There are far more important and potentially devastating Church issues to worry about than an electric guitar at Mass!

 

[benedictgal]

Perhaps the Vatican doesn’t listen to jazz! Let’s just face the fact that any and all instruments are used in secular music and, in the case of the organ, even preferred by secular musicians of a particular genre. Regardless of what some may think, reverence is in the heart not the ear. There are far more important and potentially devastating Church issues to worry about than an electric guitar at Mass!

Actually, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is at the heart of the Church. It is the source and summit of our life as the Church. If we get that wrong, then, everything else really does not matter. The problem, as I see it, is that there seems to be casualness among not a few people regarding the Mass who tend to have the attitude, as I have read these posts in other threads, that anything goes during the liturgy. They seem to ignore what the Popes have written about the importance of genuine sacred music. That is a shame.

The Church has a centuries-old relationship with the organ. Of recent date, Supreme Pontifffs from Pope St. Pius X to Pope Benedict XVI have consistently extolled the organ as the musical instrument par excellence of the Church. No other musical instrument is mentioned in the documents except the organ,

 

[ProVobis]

Regardless of what some may think, reverence is in the heart not the ear. There are far more important and potentially devastating Church issues to worry about than an electric guitar at Mass!

To an extent that is true. But the Church has to tell us the limits of how far to take the issue or avoid it. After all profanity, and that is exactly the issue here, is against divine law, not Church’s law. There is no reason to risk profanity, which is implied by all the secular nonsense.

 

[Jennifer_J]

The organ is used at baseball games, in jazz, to accompany silent movies, and so forth. It was created in the 3rd century BC, it was a secular instrument then.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the organ and think it should be used as much as possible. Beautiful, IF played correctly. However, to say that the organ ISN’T a secular instrument and somehow the piano, or bongo drums (they are ethnic, not secular, per se) and so forth ARE by their NATURE SECULAR, is not to understand how instruments have come to be and have been used over the centuries. Do I think that electric guitars are appropriate for Mass? No, but I think there is a ton more leeway than you list, Benedictgirl. Your list is subjective, it’s what YOU think, because there is NO official list. Other than saying that the organ should be used most of the time, there are not hard and fast guidlines. With all due respect to the Bishops…defining a secular instrument is very difficult–because the organ would have to be included (along with flutes, violins, pianos, and pretty much every instrument out there, because they have been used by secular artists over time).

 

[ProVobis]

The organ is used at baseball games, in jazz, to accompany silent movies, and so forth. It was created in the 3rd century BC, it was a secular instrument then.

The pipe organ is used at hockey games in some indoor and outdoor concerts as well. And it may even be playing hymns at those concerts. That’s not the point. It’s not just the pipe organ but how it’s played and its context that dictates whether it’s suitable for actual worship or not.

 

[benedictgal]

The organ is used at baseball games, in jazz, to accompany silent movies, and so forth. It was created in the 3rd century BC, it was a secular instrument then.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the organ and think it should be used as much as possible. Beautiful, IF played correctly. However, to say that the organ ISN’T a secular instrument and somehow the piano, or bongo drums (they are ethnic, not secular, per se) and so forth ARE by their NATURE SECULAR, is not to understand how instruments have come to be and have been used over the centuries. Do I think that electric guitars are appropriate for Mass? No, but I think there is a ton more leeway than you list, Benedictgirl. Your list is subjective, it’s what YOU think, because there is NO official list. Other than saying that the organ should be used most of the time, there are not hard and fast guidlines. With all due respect to the Bishops…defining a secular instrument is very difficult–because the organ would have to be included (along with flutes, violins, pianos, and pretty much every instrument out there, because they have been used by secular artists over time).

Again, as Pope Paul VI stated (and, this is the very Pontiff under which the OF of the Mass was brought about), not everything is fit to cross the threshold insofar as music is concerned.

What you do not seem to understand is that the organ is the only instrument specifically mentioned in the authoritative documents of the Church. It is actually the only instrument that has been extolled by the Supreme Pontiffs. It’s almost as though Pope Benedict’s own words on the organ are lost on not a few people.

I stand by what I have written. Furthermore, the particular secular genres that employ the use of electric guitars, drums, bass guitars and the like have no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Again, according to Pope Benedict XVI:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

The problem is that, unfortunately, statements made by the Pope tend to get ignored by the publishing houses. They are the ones who publish the songs that use these instruments, trying to pass them off as something legitimate when they really are not.

 

[OraLabora]

Perhaps the Vatican doesn’t listen to jazz! Let’s just face the fact that any and all instruments are used in secular music and, in the case of the organ, even preferred by secular musicians of a particular genre. Regardless of what some may think, reverence is in the heart not the ear. There are far more important and potentially devastating Church issues to worry about than an electric guitar at Mass!

Respectfully, I disagree. Part of the purpose of the liturgy is to draw us from the profane world to the sacred world, and to impart a sense of God’s transcendence. Sacred music with traditions going back centuries or millennia have stood the test of time. Moreover, in particular Gregorian chant, the music is there to enhance the Word, not to entertain or be the highlight in itself, thus deviating attention from the Sacrifice of the Mass. Apart from hymns of the Divine Office (and these were largely written to combat heresy, starting in the time of St. Ambrose), virtually all of the chant repertoire of the Mass is drawn directly from scripture, with a strong emphasis on the psalms but also from the other books of the Bible.

There is simply no peer for that. As Benedictgal says, the Mass is at the heart of our entire faith. For me, an electric guitar at Mass would probably send me quickly to the exits looking for another parish. And I say that as someone who does like rock music. But it doesn’t have its place at Mass, and with all due respect to composers, man-made lyrics simply have no peer compared to the Word of God.

I’m not fully blocked to non-Gregorian music. I have heard beautiful and reverential acoustic guitar at Mass, as well as very nice non-Gregorian hymns. But my preference is decidedly Gregorian chant and I’m not alone: it is the Church’s as well. I would rather attend a reverential Mass with no music than one with loud/bad/non-pertinent music.

 

[jamanne]

I guess the bagpipes are out

 

[ProVobis]

I guess the bagpipes are out

Unless they’re stops on the organ.

 

[benedictgal]

Respectfully, I disagree. Part of the purpose of the liturgy is to draw us from the profane world to the sacred world, and to impart a sense of God’s transcendence. Sacred music with traditions going back centuries or millennia have stood the test of time. Moreover, in particular Gregorian chant, the music is there to enhance the Word, not to entertain or be the highlight in itself, thus deviating attention from the Sacrifice of the Mass. Apart from hymns of the Divine Office (and these were largely written to combat heresy, starting in the time of St. Ambrose), virtually all of the chant repertoire of the Mass is drawn directly from scripture, with a strong emphasis on the psalms but also from the other books of the Bible.

There is simply no peer for that. As Benedictgal says, the Mass is at the heart of our entire faith. For me, an electric guitar at Mass would probably send me quickly to the exits looking for another parish. And I say that as someone who does like rock music. But it doesn’t have its place at Mass, and with all due respect to composers, man-made lyrics simply have no peer compared to the Word of God.

I’m not fully blocked to non-Gregorian music. I have heard beautiful and reverential acoustic guitar at Mass, as well as very nice non-Gregorian hymns. But my preference is decidedly Gregorian chant and I’m not alone: it is the Church’s as well. I would rather attend a reverential Mass with no music than one with loud/bad/non-pertinent music.

Agreed.

For the past couple of weeks, I have had to fill-in for the young lady who has begun singing at my father’s parish. She uses a guitar. She means well, but, the musical selections are tawdry, more along the lines of the SLJ and she strums loud and proud. She was preparing the music for the Solemnity of the Holy Trinity, strumming and singing, when the visiting priest emerged from the confessional and gently told her that he would prefer that the parts of the Mass be sung acapella. Furthermore, he told her that he would lead the singing for these and the Gospel Acclamation. He also asked her not to strum “Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above.” He even led the singing for the opening hymn because she did not know “Holy, Holy, Holy”. The people were very receptive to singing the parts of the Mass along with the visiting priest. They were simple English chants that the faithful picked up. They even joined in for “Holy, Holy, Holy”. When the young lady plays and sings, no one sings.

The pastor asked me to help out for two Saturdays. We did it accapella, singing traditional hymns and the Mass settings by Richard Proulx. Everyone sang. Even at Communion, quite a few people kept up the hymn long enough to give me a chance to receive Holy Communion.

For the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul, my dad’s parish will be getting an organist.