MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[benedictgal]

I can read just fine thanks. I’ve had a fine legal career for years which requires an ability to analyze documents at a level that most people could not understand. I never said “carte blanche” or indicated any position on the instruments. I asked you for a a source for your the unsupported list that you appended to a quote of an official document as if to bootstrap some authority to what appears to be a list that you personally made for unknown reasons. If you had some official source for your list I assume that you would have posted that instead of going on the offensive against me in a knee jerk reaction to a request for some official support for your assertion.

I have lawyers appearing before me all of the time who read laws through the lens of what they would like to see versus reading it in a purely logical manner with an eye toward the legislative intent (intent of those who wrote the law). I’ll tell you what I tell them, “what you think it should be or how you see it is not legal support for your position.” Persuading a judge to rule in your client’s favor requires more than your opinion or argument and persuading fellow posters that something is the Church’s position and not merely your personal preference also requires authoritative support.

And, for the record, I worked at the Texas House of Representatives for 12 years, where I wrote a couple of bills that became law and made amendments to others.

As ProVobis stated earlier, trying to look for loopholes tends to defy the spirit of the legislation. I should know. My bosses would ask me to draft legislation to close same.

Furthermore, the liturgy and secular law are two different animals altogether. What may work in the secular world does not always work in the ecclesiastical sphere. I have given you authoritative support. You either, with all due respect, do not want to see it or are trying to find a loophole to circumvent it.

 

[MarkThompson]

Furthermore, the liturgy and secular law are two different animals altogether. What may work in the secular world does not always work in the ecclesiastical sphere. I have given you authoritative support. You either, with all due respect, do not want to see it or are trying to find a loophole to circumvent it.

BenedictGal, among other thing you’ve said that drums are prohibited from Mass. However, Mozart’s Requiem is scored for an ensemble that includes two timpani. So is the outcome of this seeming discrepancy that (1) Mozart’s Requiem is forbidden (unless, at least, rescored to omit the timpani), or (2) most drums, most of the time, are forbidden. I’m guessing the latter. But then you don’t have “authoritative support” for claiming that drums are forbidden in any particular instance – you actually have to argue the specifics of the issue, and there may well be cases in which reasonable people could disagree.

That’s exactly the problem. It’s not really an area that admits of “authoritative” conclusions from the documents in anything that might approach a close case. This should not be surprising, considering that the documents themselves use mushy, non-self-explanatory phrases like " common opinion and use" and “well integrated into the overall celebration.”

 

[4Squarebaby]

BenedictGal, among other thing you’ve said that drums are prohibited from Mass. However, Mozart’s Requiem is scored for an ensemble that includes two timpani. So is the outcome of this seeming discrepancy that (1) Mozart’s Requiem is forbidden (unless, at least, rescored to omit the timpani), or (2) most drums, most of the time, are forbidden. I’m guessing the latter. But then you don’t have “authoritative support” for claiming that drums are forbidden in any particular instance you actually have to argue the specifics of the issue, and there may well be cases in which reasonable people could disagree.

If I have been following this argument for the last few months correctly if the drummer has one or two drums it is good. If the drummer has three drums a foot pedal and maybe a cymbal, thedn bad. Unless the Church is in Africa then a different set of rules apply.

 

[benedictgal]

If I have been following this argument for the last few months correctly if the drummer has one or two drums it is good. If the drummer has three drums a foot pedal and maybe a cymbal, thedn bad. Unless the Church is in Africa then a different set of rules apply.

In Africa, there is a provision that the Church uses called inculturation. Inculturation applies to those churches established in missionary territories that serve the indigenous peoples. However, the same does not apply here in the West.

 

[MarkThompson]

If I have been following this argument for the last few months correctly if the drummer has one or two drums it is good.

Unless said single or double drum is a bongo, tom-tom, or the like, presumably!

 

[ProVobis]

However, Mozart’s Requiem is scored for an ensemble that includes two timpani.

So that should qualify under the “according to longstanding local usage” category, I would think. Unless the locals decided they didn’t want anything to do with Mozart.

 

[ProVobis]

If I have been following this argument for the last few months correctly if the drummer has one or two drums it is good. If the drummer has three drums a foot pedal and maybe a cymbal, thedn bad. Unless the Church is in Africa then a different set of rules apply.

4Square, don’t take this the wrong way but I think you’re not looking at the much larger picture here.

I can bring some rubber bands to church and strum them during Credo III or any other chant or hymn. Not a mortal sin per se. However, what were my intentions? Did I bring them to annoy my pewmates? Did I bring them so my hands would have something to do? Or did I bring them to defy the traditional rules condemning modern instruments? One could make a case that any one of these or other reasons was a violation of the first commandment even if someone around me actually liked the rubber band idea and it helped them pray better. Profanity is against divine law, not against church’s law. However, the Church can and does provide guidance in these matters. Even Protestants seem to have their own set of guidelines for musical instruments in their worship services.

 

[pnewton]

In Africa, there is a provision that the Church uses called inculturation. Inculturation applies to those churches established in missionary territories that serve the indigenous peoples. However, the same does not apply here in the West?

Do they not apply at all, or do they just apply differently. For example, there are a few situations where a pastor and a whole Church have converted. When this is a church steeped in the black spiritual culture, do they have to abandon the culture, or just adapt and follow the rules?

In my case, I live where three cultures collide. The smallest group is the the European Catholic culture. The largest group (which does not affect me often) is the hispanic. The middle group is the American Protestant culture. I rejoice that we have such a great problem and opportunity because of a far-reaching RCIA program over the years. My challenge has been to bring in more of the traditional Catholic hymnology in favor of the Protestant praise songs. However, traditional Protestant hymns are often very suitable and rich in meaning. That and they are well known and well sung.

 

[diggerdomer]

Diggerdomer, there is a huge difference between secular and sacred music. Pretty much what you see at a secular concert (Mily Cyrus, Green Day, U2, etc) should not be used at the Mass. It’s that simple. Just because OCP has music that uses these instruments, that does not necessarily mean that these are okay. They are not.

WHAT? No way! A difference between secular and sacred music? REALLY???

Are you trying to suggest that going to Church (Mass, liturgy, etc.) is somehow different than going to some run of the mill concert (whether contemporary or classical, jam band or orchestra)?

NO…REALLLY???

I had no idea.

Good GOD!

Thanks for the help.

I am definitely going to let my Bishop know about THIS!

 

[ProVobis]

WHAT? No way! A difference between secular and sacred music? REALLY???

Throw sarcasm around all you want but I’d bet most wouldn’t know the difference if they heard it.

 

[Sarabande]

Throw sarcasm around all you want but I’d bet most wouldn’t know the difference if they heard it.

I’m afraid you might be right about this. Most of the brides and grooms I’ve worked with in choosing liturgical music didn’t even know that there was such a thing as “sacred music” and “secular music”, nor did they know what “absolute music” was, although, in fairness, most people wouldn’t know what “absolute music” is. That’s a phrase many church musicians and people interested in this stuff would throw around. basically they think it’s all the same, with the slight difference of sometimes adding God or other religious text.

Some of my friends and many of my family are the same way. They don’t know about the differences and some don’t care. The only time I see people start to care is when they begin to plan their wedding liturgies and suddenly they realize that they can’t have x song sung or played because it is secular or in some parishes I’ve done these weddings, too secular stylistically. So they either comply after it is explained to them, or throw a fit. Or sometimes try to get technical about it. “Well, song x mentions God in it. That makes it a sacred song, right?” Most priests will hold their ground. Some won’t for whatever reason and allow it.

I will say the one thing they do recognize as music specifically for the church is chant. They don’t know it’s called Sacred Music, but they recognize it as such.

 

[diggerdomer]

Throw sarcasm around all you want but I’d bet most wouldn’t know the difference if they heard it.

You are right. I apologize for the sarcasm. Sorry.

 

[snowlake]

Proper instrumentation for Sacred Music is not as arbitrary as some think. First of all, there are such people as music historians, musicologists and music theorists, many with PhDs in their field. They will tell you right off that indeed there are specific instruments associated with divine worship. The Vatican II documents tell us that the organ takes
pride of place. “Sacred” means “set apart”. The musical instruments used should not be those that are very often connected w/ secular music.
The psychological effect of hearing such secular-sounding instruments (and musical styles) is one of casualness and interferes w/ our ability to enter into the REALITY that
this IS the Sacrifice of Calvary that we are entering into. We participate in this most sacred reality as if we were at a protestant praise and worship session. There would be nothing wrong with this if that is what this was, but it isn’t. It’s Holy Mass.
Even acoustic guitars and pianos are very very much associated with secular music…
and secular music isn’t just pop music, it includes much classical music as well.
I’m a classical pianist with both undergraduate and graduate degrees in music, but whenever anyone asks me to play for Mass I decline. A piano should not be used .
Unfortunately, much of the secular-style music that we sing in church only lends itself to these instruments, and when played on an organ end up sounding like merry-go-round
music.
I think it’s hoorible that any of this could ever have happened in the first place. How can it be undone?

that

 

[pnewton]

Proper instrumentation for Sacred Music is not as arbitrary as some think. First of all, there are such people as music historians, musicologists and music theorists, many with PhDs in their field. They will tell you right off that indeed there are specific instruments associated with divine worship. The Vatican II documents tell us that the organ takes

I do not think anyone has used the word “arbitrary”. The existence os musicologists (?) with PhDs does not change in the least that it is only the Church that has authority to give direction. Everything beyond that is opinion. That opinion may be arbitrary, educated or authoritative. Again, only authoritative opinion matters.

 

[snowlake]

I do not think anyone has used the word “arbitrary”. The existence os musicologists (?) with PhDs does not change in the least that it is only the Church that has authority to give direction. Everything beyond that is opinion. That opinion may be arbitrary, educated or authoritative. Again, only authoritative opinion matters.

Yes , most certainly you are correct. What I was referring to is the fact that many
people who dis church guidelines actually DO think that everything has to do with
“taste” and “opinion”. But the church’s guidelines are based on real spiritual, historical, psychological and aesthetic facts. Pope Benedict XVI is very learned in these areas,
and hopefully will someday help clarify the questions that we all have.
You put a question mark after the word “musicologists”. Does this mean you need clarif
ication of the term?
Musicology/Music History is an area of human knowledge that is quite vast. It ranks
third in this regard (after Philosophy and Medicine). It also includes knowledge of the
science of Music Theory and composition, which it uses to analyze works for their
historical, aesthetic and stylistic significance.
I am not a musicologist myself, but have studied the subject matter in graduate school,
and learned to appreciate the hugely vast area that it covers. What I was exposed to was only the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
My point is not one of academic snobbery (like I said , I’m not a musicologist myself),
what I’m trying to point out is that many “pastoral musicians” and parish liturgists think
that everything is simply a matter of preference, and that it has nothing to do with the actual compositional style and instrumentation.
Music historians and musicologists are a great help here, as they are very familiar with
church history and guidelines in this regard, and I’ve never met a single one (Protestant or Catholic) who agrees with what’s going on in today’s average parish. In fact, contemporary Catholic music for Mass is generally held in very low esteem by them.
Fr. Richard Neuhaus(sp?), convert from Lutheranism, claimed that the biggest difficulty he had after his conversion was enduring today’s Catholic liturgical music.
Hopefully, we will soon have clarification by the Pope and bishops about these issues.
The subject matter is definitely not “all relative”. The worst offenders are the “pastoral
musicians” and “liturgists” in our parishes and dioceses who have been trained in colleges
and institutes that have no regard for the mind of the Church. They really do not study
music history in depth and in an objective manner. Everything is skewed to accomodate
a certain “progressive” theology, and engineered to meet its ends.
I think this is soon coming to an end.

 

[pnewton]

The worst offenders are the “pastoral
musicians” and “liturgists” in our parishes and dioceses who have been trained in colleges

I really had no idea what a musicologist was, as I have never heard the term. I conjured an image in my mind of the very person you describe in the later part of this post. In this regard, learning is not necessarily a good thing. I agree with what you have said and it bears repeating that taste and preference have little place in making decisions regarding music, and never first place. Opinion, on the other hand, is broad and must be necessity be used. It is our job to keep our opinions informed and in concert with Church teaching.

 

[snowlake]

Excellent pun, PNewton! By the way do you (or anyone else) know the name of the
contemporary composer who wrote the Broadway musical-style sung Mass, which
contains sung parts for the priest during the consecration w/ piano accompaniment?
Our Liturgy Committee chooses this for Christmas, Holy Thursday and for Easter. It
really bugs me because I feel like I’m in the audience of a show instead of the Sacrifice of Calvary, I was under the impression that the words of consecration, if sung, must be
unaccompanied.
Unfortunately, our church musicians are unapproachable, and although the usual books
that they use are left in the church during the week, I’ve never been able to find the score to this particular composition. I was under the impression (correct me if I’m wrong) that
this particular setting of the Mass is no longer to be used.
It would help me if I could find out who the composer is.
I wish I could simply ask the liturgical music people or the priest, but they are so defensive and elusive, even when approached in a kind manner.

 

[benedictgal]

Excellent pun, PNewton! By the way do you (or anyone else) know the name of the
contemporary composer who wrote the Broadway musical-style sung Mass, which
contains sung parts for the priest during the consecration w/ piano accompaniment?
Our Liturgy Committee chooses this for Christmas, Holy Thursday and for Easter. It
really bugs me because I feel like I’m in the audience of a show instead of the Sacrifice of Calvary, I was under the impression that the words of consecration, if sung, must be
unaccompanied.
Unfortunately, our church musicians are unapproachable, and although the usual books
that they use are left in the church during the week, I’ve never been able to find the score to this particular composition. I was under the impression (correct me if I’m wrong) that
this particular setting of the Mass is no longer to be used.
It would help me if I could find out who the composer is.
I wish I could simply ask the liturgical music people or the priest, but they are so defensive and elusive, even when approached in a kind manner.

It’s by Marty Haugen. However, it is forbidden to use music during the Eucharistic Prayer. This is a serious abuse. Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

[53.] While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,132 except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below.

I faced this problem when I was visiting the Cathedral in San Antonio and they were doing just that. After Mass, I told the celebrant that I had a serious concern about this, but, he brushed me off. I then fired off a letter to the rector, but, he never wrote back. If I were you, I would bring this to the attention of the liturgy committee. What they are doing is wrong. Even if they pelt you with a bad reaction, this is a bad practice. If they and the pastor do not respond to your letter, then, correspondence to the chancery is the next step.

 

[snowlake]

It’s by Marty Haugen. However, it is forbidden to use music during the Eucharistic Prayer. This is a serious abuse. Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

I faced this problem when I was visiting the Cathedral in San Antonio and they were doing just that. After Mass, I told the celebrant that I had a serious concern about this, but, he brushed me off. I then fired off a letter to the rector, but, he never wrote back. If I were you, I would bring this to the attention of the liturgy committee. What they are doing is wrong. Even if they pelt you with a bad reaction, this is a bad practice. If they and the pastor do not respond to your letter, then, correspondence to the chancery is the next step.

Thank you, benedictgal. I’m glad you’re up on all of this. I would like to learn much more
and don’t know where to start. My college background is in music (piano performance and pedagogy), but not in Sacred Music. I don’t even know how to play the organ, which would help since it could legitimately get me involved in the parish music scene.Having no background in choral conducting doesn’t help either.

To be fair though, none of the parish musicians or liturgy committee members at my parish have any musical education at all !! The pianist plays by ear mostly, and accompanies all the hymns (of course, “contemporary” ones) with very loud (and
amplified!) bangy chords.

It would be good to suggest the creation of a traditional choir or schola, but in order to have a good one there needs to be a leader who knows what he/she is doing! Any suggestions on how I can acquire some basic skills so that I can become involved and hopefully try to make a difference?

 

[snowlake]

Perhaps the Vatican doesn’t listen to jazz! Let’s just face the fact that any and all instruments are used in secular music and, in the case of the organ, even preferred by secular musicians of a particular genre. Regardless of what some may think, reverence is in the heart not the ear. There are far more important and potentially devastating Church issues to worry about than an electric guitar at Mass!

Reverence is definitely in the heart. It is also in the ear! I understand what you are saying, but have to disagree with the assertion that an “electric guitar” in Mass is of small importance. I’m sure the musician probably has good intentions, and has what he/shethinks is “reverence” in the heart. Most people do. We’ve been conditioned so much over the past few decades by non-sacred styles that we don’t even blink an eye
when these things occur.

But this is at odds w/ the attitude of the teaching Church, and if one is a sincere Catholic,
one should attempt to understand this and learn a bit about what’s behind Church guidelines for the Sacred Liturgy.

If a painting on black velvet of Elvis Presley spurs some individuals to sincere feelings of reverence because it reminds them of their grandmothers ( Elvis fans) who were also very devout,does this mean that the local parish should hang the painting? After all, it spurs
“reverence” in the hearts of the faithful, and that is more important than a silly little issue of heeding Church guidelines on liturgical art.(?!)

The “reverence” at Mass is of a different type than would be described in personal private devotions at home or at a concert by a “Christian Band”, however good the latter may be.
The Mass IS the holy sacrifice on Calvary of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of sacrifices, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Prior to this, sacrifices were offered in the Temple. I doubt if they were offered to the tune of Zum gali gali. They were offered in reverence and awe.

The early Church derived it’s liturgical music from Hebrew Chant… .not at all the same
thing as Hebrew “folk music” (the lai la lai stuff we sometimes hear at Mass), and by the
same token today’s sacred music should not reflect secular music.

Your observations would be appropriate for some of the contemporary Protestant services.
But these are not the Mass.