MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[snowlake]

The organ is used at baseball games, in jazz, to accompany silent movies, and so forth. It was created in the 3rd century BC, it was a secular instrument then.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the organ and think it should be used as much as possible. Beautiful, IF played correctly. However, to say that the organ ISN’T a secular instrument and somehow the piano, or bongo drums (they are ethnic, not secular, per se) and so forth ARE by their NATURE SECULAR, is not to understand how instruments have come to be and have been used over the centuries. Do I think that electric guitars are appropriate for Mass? No, but I think there is a ton more leeway than you list, Benedictgirl. Your list is subjective, it’s what YOU think, because there is NO official list. Other than saying that the organ should be used most of the time, there are not hard and fast guidlines. With all due respect to the Bishops…defining a secular instrument is very difficult–because the organ would have to be included (along with flutes, violins, pianos, and pretty much every instrument out there, because they have been used by secular artists over time).

Good grief, where are you getting your information!!! True, the organ is used in the situations you mentioned, but it DEFINITELY was first (and exclusively) used as an
instrument for religious worship, and that is still its primary use today. It is the opposite
phenomena that causes problems: the bringing into the sacred liturgy things that originated and are primarily used in secular music, be it classical or popular. These might be o.k. in other religious venues ( prayer meetings, religious gatherings outside of the Mass).
And you’re right about piano - it IS a secular instrument. It didn’t even come into existence until the mid 1700s. It’s my favorite instrument, and my entire life has been involved with it…all of my college education and employment. However much it contributes to God’s
glory through the dissemination of truth, goodness and beauty, it is still not something connected to the Sacred, even though it can lead others to God.
Many things are good, and lead us to God: beautiful paintings, sunsets, beautiful secular music, etc., etc. But that doesn’t mean that they are to be used in a worship setting.
The piano repertoire is vast, and is made up of more than 99% secular music. Beautiful as it can be, it is primarily connected to the secular sphere.
A good distinction can be found in the writings of Jacques Maritain. He distinguishes between religious art , Christian art and Sacred art. They’re all good, but not the same thing.

 

[Melchior_1]

It strikes me that a lot of people’s complaints could be rectified if the overall skill of musicians (“contemporary” and “traditional” alike) improved and if people picked music that fit the readings at Mass. I go to Mass with my wife on Saturdays and the “traditional” choir there that does chants and “traditional” songs does a rather terrible job. The songs fit the readings, but their execution is terrible.

Oh, and The Mass IS the holy sacrifice on Calvary of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of sacrifices, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Prior to this, sacrifices were offered in the Temple. I doubt if they were offered to the tune of Zum gali gali. They were offered in reverence and awe. is a bad example. Throughout the Old Testament there was a lot of music and other things that some would deem irreverent. In fact, that’s why several people disregard the Old Testament’s take on music and worship (because we all know Jesus abolished the Old Laws and the Old Ways, right?)

EDIT: Has there been any time that the Church has taken something secular and incorporated it? Why yes it has. There’s a few instruments that are permitted, with the ban on them being lifted due to better play styles and increased skill in using them.

 

[snowlake]

I have to chuckle at the discussion about the organ being THE sacred instrument of choice. I guess none here ever listen to jazz where the organ is one instrument of choice, can’t get more secular than that! Please don’t use the argument that the jazz organ is disqualified from the discussion because it is electronic or electric because the majority of church organs are as well.

Any instrument can and will be defined as secular by someone so I concentrate on those instruments that fit the culture of the particular parish as acceptable.

I also dislike the piano at Mass, especially when there is a fantastic pipe organ right across the choir loft from it!

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you, benedictgal. I’m glad you’re up on all of this. I would like to learn much more
and don’t know where to start. My college background is in music (piano performance and pedagogy), but not in Sacred Music. I don’t even know how to play the organ, which would help since it could legitimately get me involved in the parish music scene.Having no background in choral conducting doesn’t help either.

To be fair though, none of the parish musicians or liturgy committee members at my parish have any musical education at all !! The pianist plays by ear mostly, and accompanies all the hymns (of course, “contemporary” ones) with very loud (and
amplified!) bangy chords.

It would be good to suggest the creation of a traditional choir or schola, but in order to have a good one there needs to be a leader who knows what he/she is doing! Any suggestions on how I can acquire some basic skills so that I can become involved and hopefully try to make a difference?

The problem is that most people do not, or will not, read the authoritative documents of the Church when it comes to music. Unfortunately, as well meaning as these folks may be, they do not realize that as far as music is concerned, “one song is not as good as another” (Pope Benedict XVI in Sacramentum Caritatis).

You don’t need a degree in music to realize that what passes off for music at the Mass is not necessarily fit to “cross the threshhold” (Pope Paul VI).

 

[snowlake]

To Bob Aliano re: “had to chuckle” etc. You’re “chuckling” at the successors of the apostles. By the way, you most certainly CAN get “more secular than that”. The use of organ in African-American gospel music came before its use in jazz and is connected to it. It is the opposite situation that is the problem: using insruments that have their primary origin and use in non-sacred situations in the Mass. This doesn’t mean that they are “bad”… I’m a jazz lover myself, and play it
every Fri/Sat night at a local gig spot .
This is the problem: we lack respect for the guidelines of the successors of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ on earth. They are not stupid, and are quite aware of what is sacred and what is secular, what constitutes reverent worship and what does not.

 

[Melchior_1]

This is the problem: we lack respect for the guidelines of the successors of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ on earth. They are not stupid, and are quite aware of what is sacred and what is secular, what constitutes reverent worship and what does not.

The current Vicar of Christ supports the Charismatic Renewal, which is known for using different instruments. Several other programs and groups are in communication with Rome and thus far haven’t had their music crushed.

Maybe people are also aware that music can evolve, and that throughout Church history we have seen the Church’s stance on music evolve as well. A look at the documents BG was mentioning actually shows a clear evolution of music and with time that certain prohibitions lifted.

Music at Mass is something that changed with time. And the onslaught of time is constant.

 

[benedictgal]

The current Vicar of Christ supports the Charismatic Renewal, which is known for using different instruments. Several other programs and groups are in communication with Rome and thus far haven’t had their music crushed.

Maybe people are also aware that music can evolve, and that throughout Church history we have seen the Church’s stance on music evolve as well. A look at the documents BG was mentioning actually shows a clear evolution of music and with time that certain prohibitions lifted.

Music at Mass is something that changed with time. And the onslaught of time is constant.

Even your argument is suspect, Melchior. While the Holy Father may support a particular movement, that is not necessarily indicative of his support for their particular manner in carrying out the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He supports, for example, the Neocatechumenal Way, but, he gave very strict and direct orders to them regarding their errant liturgical practices and withheld approving their charter until they stopped the abuses.

As for the documents, again, with all due respect, your interpretation is flawed. The music and the instruments have to fit certain parameters to be used in the Church.

 

[Melchior_1]

As for the documents, again, with all due respect, your interpretation is flawed. The music and the instruments have to fit certain parameters to be used in the Church.

The other day I heard something funny about the true meaning about “with all due respect”, and I immediately thought of you

“With all due respect”, it is your interpretation that is flawed if you look at the historical context with both the Church and Music.

 

[snowlake]

It strikes me that a lot of people’s complaints could be rectified if the overall skill of musicians (“contemporary” and “traditional” alike) improved and if people picked music that fit the readings at Mass. I go to Mass with my wife on Saturdays and the “traditional” choir there that does chants and “traditional” songs does a rather terrible job. The songs fit the readings, but their execution is terrible.

Oh, and The Mass IS the holy sacrifice on Calvary of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the sacrifice of sacrifices, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Prior to this, sacrifices were offered in the Temple. I doubt if they were offered to the tune of Zum gali gali. They were offered in reverence and awe. is a bad example. Throughout the Old Testament there was a lot of music and other things that some would deem irreverent. In fact, that’s why several people disregard the Old Testament’s take on music and worship (because we all know Jesus abolished the Old Laws and the Old Ways, right?)

EDIT: Has there been any time that the Church has taken something secular and incorporated it? Why yes it has. There’s a few instruments that are permitted, with the ban on them being lifted due to better play styles and increased skill in using them.

I appreciate your response, but would like to point out that the “take” on music and worship by the Pope (and the world’s bishops in union with him) holds more weight than
the “several people” you mentioned. They represent our Lord in a very special and unique way. The documents of Vatican II and the writings of our present Holy Father, and even
Pope John Paul II, are not only to be seriously considered , but adhered to. The breadth of the learning of the Pope (and his predecessor) is amazingly vast and worthy of respect.
On top of all of that, both are/were very holy and good people with the best of intentions.
You mentioned that the traditional chants/hymns sung by your parish choir are terribly executed. Maybe you could help them in this regard.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

To Bob Aliano re: “had to chuckle” etc. You’re “chuckling” at the successors of the apostles. By the way, you most certainly CAN get “more secular than that”. The use of organ in African-American gospel music came before its use in jazz and is connected to it. It is the opposite situation that is the problem: using insruments that have their primary origin and use in non-sacred situations in the Mass. This doesn’t mean that they are “bad”… I’m a jazz lover myself, and play it
every Fri/Sat night at a local gig spot .
This is the problem: we lack respect for the guidelines of the successors of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ on earth. They are not stupid, and are quite aware of what is sacred and what is secular, what constitutes reverent worship and what does not.

Don’t ever again imply that I lack respect for the Pope or any clergy for that matter, that is going far beyond anything you may think you know about me. There is considerable separation between an obvious tongue-in-cheek remark and disrespect.

Either the Vatican bans certain instruments or it doesn’t; if it doesn’t, then all instruments are acceptable under appropriate circumstances such as the culture of a particular parish or possibly the nature of a particular feast day or solemnity. We often have full or chamber orchestras on major feast days including organ, piano, brass, woodwinds, strings and percussion including tympani and hand-bells. Most major classical Masses were composed and arranged for just such orchestration . In addition, most parishes have youth Masses with clearly secular instruments to attract and hold teens, nothing wrong with that idea in this modern environment. Those of us who don’t like that music stay away from teen Masses. I attend a Mexican heritage parish when I travel to a certain city in Colorado, there guitars are the norm, doesn’t strike me as a bit odd or unacceptable.

 

[snowlake]

The current Vicar of Christ supports the Charismatic Renewal, which is known for using different instruments. Several other programs and groups are in communication with Rome and thus far haven’t had their music crushed.

Maybe people are also aware that music can evolve, and that throughout Church history we have seen the Church’s stance on music evolve as well. A look at the documents BG was mentioning actually shows a clear evolution of music and with time that certain prohibitions lifted.

Music at Mass is something that changed with time. And the onslaught of time is constant.

The fact that “different instruments” are used in the Charismatic Renewal or any other group that is approved by the Holy See has no significance whatsoever to the topic at hand, except for the fact that they too must heed Church guidelines and apparently are not doing so. The fact that nothing has been done about it is par for the course, as nothing has really been done about the abuses in our regular parishes.
Sacred Music has certainly changed throughout the history of the Church, but it was
always a development of just that: SACRED Music.
If the Church decides to institute changes, then so be it. But until then…give it the honor
and respect it deserves as the Body Of Christ, and give the Vicar of Christ and the Bishops the honor and respect that they deserve. They are our parents in Christ and
we should avoid acting like juvenile delinquents who have to take issue with everything they say. Really, they’re not stupid.

 

[snowlake]

Don’t ever again imply that I lack respect for the Pope or any clergy for that matter, that is going far beyond anything you may think you know about me. There is considerable separation between an obvious tongue-in-cheek remark and disrespect.

Either the Vatican bans certain instruments or it doesn’t; if it doesn’t, then all instruments are acceptable under appropriate circumstances such as the culture of a particular parish or possibly the nature of a particular feast day or solemnity. We often have full or chamber orchestras on major feast days including organ, piano, brass, woodwinds, strings and percussion including tympani and hand-bells. Most major classical Masses were composed and arranged for just such orchestration . In addition, most parishes have youth Masses with clearly secular instruments to attract and hold teens, nothing wrong with that idea in this modern environment. Those of us who don’t like that music stay away from teen Masses. I attend a Mexican heritage parish when I travel to a certain city in Colorado, there guitars are the norm, doesn’t strike me as a bit odd or unacceptable.

 

[Melchior_1]

.give it the honor
and respect it deserves as the Body Of Christ, and give the Vicar of Christ and the Bishops the honor and respect that they deserve.

I’m the second person now you’re casting this at. Out of charity I’ll echo what Bob said in his earlier post both about disrespect and about his comments regarding instruments.

 

[snowlake]

snowlake:
To Bob Aliano: I don’t think I know anything about you,and didn’t need to in order to write my response to your post. All I know is what you said: you “chuckled” about organ being considered primarily an instrument for sacred worship.
The documents of Vatican II give the organ pride of place. The documents were written
by the Fathers of the Council and approved by the Pope. It wasn’t my idea( or the idea of anyone else who thinks that the Fathers and the Pope just might know what they were talking about) to include this in the documents.
Your thinking was backwards. Just because something sacred (be it music, art, or
anything else) is used in a secular setting sometimes, doesn’t mean that secular things should be used in a sacred setting. I take holy water home from church and use it there as well as in church, but I don’t take lemonade from home and fill the holy water font with it. Those are two different things.

 

[Melchior_1]

Your thinking was backwards. Just because something sacred (be it music, art, or anything else) is used in a secular setting sometimes, doesn’t mean that secular things should be used in a sacred setting.

But this is what happened. Kettle-drums and stringed instruments are but two examples of items which were approved in accordance with the improved manner of usage and skill. Explain to me why this happened over time.

 

[snowlake]

I’m the second person now you’re casting this at. Out of charity I’ll echo what Bob said in his earlier post both about disrespect and about his comments regarding instruments.

I’m not “casting” anything at anyone. I’m simply defending the Pope, bishops and the Church. However, it does seem that you and Bob were casting a few things that required a frank reply. I’m not judging your intentions, perhaps you have not read any of the information that has been provided for us by the Church and are relying on second and third hand opinions.
Please do not take such offense at people who are trying to be faithful to what has been requested of all of us by none other than the Pope! I’m sure that everyone who is involved in the secular-style music in the Catholic Mass has good intentions, but that still doesn’t make it right. The Mass is not just a prayer meeting or a Protestant Praise and “Worship”
session. Those are good things, but not the Mass.

 

[Melchior_1]

I’m not “casting” anything at anyone. I’m simply defending the Pope, bishops and the Church. However, it does seem that you and Bob were casting a few things that required a frank reply. I’m not judging your intentions, perhaps you have not read any of the information that has been provided for us by the Church and are relying on second and third hand opinions.
Please do not take such offense at people who are trying to be faithful to what has been requested of all of us by none other than the Pope! I’m sure that everyone who is involved in the secular-style music in the Catholic Mass has good intentions, but that still doesn’t make it right. The Mass is not just a prayer meeting or a Protestant Praise and “Worship”
session. Those are good things, but not the Mass.

Yes, you are. You can deny it as much as you want but saying things like “give it the honor and respect it deserves as the Body Of Christ, and give the Vicar of Christ and the Bishops the honor and respect that they deserve.” is a fairly direct way of questioning our beliefs and how we feel about the Body of Christ and about the leaders of the Church.

You’re assuming something here (the lack of reading documents), as I’ve mentioned a few things from those documents (of which you have yet to respond to). I’ve read the information in the Church documents, and like others here I have came to my own conclusions, which differ from yours.

This doesn’t make me a modernist or a heretic (although some may say it does), it makes me an orthodox Roman Catholic who plays drums at Mass.

Speaking of drums, apparently during the canonization of the Uganda Martyrs some African Drums were played at St. Peter’s. Before you say “it’s in their culture” keep in mind that unless some violent science happened Rome is not in Africa, which means the “cultural clause” is not in effect.

 

[snowlake]

But this is what happened. Kettle-drums and stringed instruments are but two examples of items which were approved in accordance with the improved manner of usage and skill. Explain to me why this happened over time.

It doesn’t MATTER why it happened over time. If the Church is to make these changes
it’s up to her, not us! By the way, the use of kettle-drums is a far cry from the use of a trap set which has far more associations with rock music and everything that goes along with it.
Since, according to you, this “IS” what happened , maybe I SHOULD suggest lemonade as the blessed liquid of choice for the next Easter Vigil.

 

[snowlake]

I’m the second person now you’re casting this at. Out of charity I’ll echo what Bob said in his earlier post both about disrespect and about his comments regarding instruments.

How could you be “the second person, etc.” when the comments were specifically directed to someone else? And this, only because something that is held in high esteem by the Church was being ridiculed. Maybe I too should get all “offended”? B.A. said what he said, and it is in plain view for everyone to see. He ridiculed the Church’s stance on organ at Mass and offered us all an illogical reason for it (the instrument is used in jazz).
Is this a respectful thing to do? If so, please explain.

 

[snowlake]

I’ve read the information in the Church documents, and like others here I have came to my own conclusions, which differ from yours.

This doesn’t make me a modernist or a heretic (although some may say it does), it makes me an orthodox Roman Catholic who plays drums at Mass.

Speaking of drums, apparently during the canonization of the Uganda Martyrs some African Drums were played at St. Peter’s. Before you say “it’s in their culture” keep in mind that unless some violent science happened Rome is not in Africa, which means the “cultural clause” is not in effect.

You have indeed come to different conclusions. In all sincerity, I would like to ask you what you think the Pope/ bishops mean when they state that some things have crept into
the music of sacred worship that shouldn’t be there. In your opinion, what is being referred to here? And if certain unspecified instruments should be avoided, if it isn’t electric guitar and a drum/trap set, what is it? I’m sincerely asking you because I really want to know.
Certainly there hasn’t been a rash of Tuba or Kazoo Masses that prompted these remarks from our leaders. What instruments do you think were being referred to?

It’s also not just the instruments, but the suitability of the musical style itself that is
being called into question.

You said “speaking of drums”, but in the previous comments I was responding to comments made about the organ. Nevertheless, I have a few things to say on that
topic. You mentioned the canonization of the Ugandan Martyrs, and then told me what not to say in response (that it was part of their culture).But I’m going to say it anyway: it was
part of their culture. And I’m sure that many people from Uganda and surrounding African
countries were there.
Sometimes we point out every “exception” to the rule to use it as an excuse to do what we want.
Again , I ask you, if the style of music that is being used in many parishes (such as that composed by Haugen, Haas, Joncas, etc., etc.) is not what was being referred to in the documents, then what was? There isn’t anything else that is wide-spread enough to warrant being mentioned. And if electric guitars and trap sets are not among the unsuitable instruments, then what are? I really do want to know.