MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[pnewton]

I’m sure that everyone who is involved in the secular-style music in the Catholic Mass has good intentions, but that still doesn’t make it right. The Mass is not just a prayer meeting or a Protestant Praise and “Worship”
session. Those are good things, but not the Mass.

Prohibitions against the secular do not necessarily apply because something is Protestant. Music common to other Christians may not be Catholic, but that also not secular. Many of the music in hymnals today have roots in other faiths. They may stink musically, but they are not secular. Thus, they do not fit the prohibitions that the Church has given.

As you pointed out, we must be attentive to the Church, but we must also be accurate.

 

[snowlake]

Excuse me but since the Church has left the choice of appropriate instruments up to the local congregation, the diocese at best, anything can be argued as culturally acceptable.

How do you come to this conclusion? Musicam Sacram asks that instruments that are
primarily used in secular music NOT be used (the exact words are “altogether prohibited”)
in the Mass, in fact, not even in popular devotions! Obviously some instruments are not acceptable.
What instruments might these be? Obviously they exist or they would not have been prohibited.

 

[snowlake]

Prohibitions against the secular do not necessarily apply because something is Protestant. Music common to other Christians may not be Catholic, but that also not secular. Many of the music in hymnals today have roots in other faiths. They may stink musically, but they are not secular. Thus, they do not fit the prohibitions that the Church has given.

As you pointed out, we must be attentive to the Church, but we must also be accurate.

Thanks p for pointing out my lack of clarity. I didn’t mean actual Protestant music, but
actual “Catholic” music that is written (I mean the notes and compositional techniques)
in a secular style. It is the same “style” that is used in the praise and worship bands in the newly popular protestant mega-churches.

 

[snowlake]

The artists and genres that you mentioned did not originate the instruments that they used. Long before they picked up guitars and drums, the instruments were in use in sacred/religious settings.

Therefore it is not the Church that is using secular instruments, it is the secular musicians who have borrowed the sacred instruments.

And therefore, I think it is very appropriate and admirable for the Church to take those instruments back again and use them for their original sacred purpose.

And if you were the Pope or if your view was in concert w/ a bishops’ synod then we would have to agree with you. By the way there is a difference between a “sacred” setting and
a simply “religious” setting. Also, “long before” the present day, when were guitars or electric guitars used in the sacred setting of the Mass? I’m not familiar w/ the former, and am quite sure the latter was’nt until the advent of electricity and the invention of said instrument.
It’s hard to use something for a “sacred purpose” if it’s primary connection is with secualr rock music.

 

[benedictgal]

And if you were the Pope or if your view was in concert w/ a bishops’ synod then we would have to agree with you. By the way there is a difference between a “sacred” setting and
a simply “religious” setting. Also, “long before” the present day, when were guitars or electric guitars used in the sacred setting of the Mass? I’m not familiar w/ the former, and am quite sure the latter was’nt until the advent of electricity and the invention of said instrument.
It’s hard to use something for a “sacred purpose” if it’s primary connection is with secualr rock music.

There is also a big difference between religious music and sacred music. Not all religious music is sacred, that is to say, fit for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[snowlake]

There is also a big difference between religious music and sacred music. Not all religious music is sacred, that is to say, fit for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Yes, and I think this is one of the primary misunderstandings that one generally runs into.
I’m afraid that even some of our priests are not aware of this distinction, so poor was their
seminary training. It’s hard to know about it unless one is taught, and we’re certainly not
gaining this information from the average parish priest.

I was unaware of this distinction myself until about 20 years ago when I began reading on the subject. The works of the late French philosopher Jacques Maritain are very helpful
and describe with clarity the distinctions that need to be made.

Perhaps we need to constantly define our terms when discussing these topics. For instance, when we speak of Sacred Music, we might need to define it as music that is
proper to Divine Worship (Mass) as opposed to simply songs w/ religious sentiments
by Christian composers.

I’m beginning to wonder why the specifics of these topics have not yet been addressed
in a clearer manner by the Bishops. Perhaps one reason might be that, having been led
astray by one of their own in the past ( a former archbishop whose career came to a rather disgraceful end)on such topics, they are
hesitant to speak out now. And once they do speak out, can you imagine the fallout?Will the Praise Bands be content to play only for non-liturgical gatherings? Will they comply once they get the clarifications that they say are necessary?
Things have been allowed to go on like this for decades. Some young adults (already
married and w/ children of their own) have never known anything else! No wonder they play trucks w/ their cheerio-eating kids during Mass. They may have no idea what’s really going on, and considering the musical environment, it’s no wonder.

Maybe all of this, no matter what side of the issue we’re on, need to send a serious S.O.S.
to the Bishops.

 

[Canto]

when we speak of Sacred Music, we might need to define it as music that is proper to Divine Worship (Mass) as opposed to simply songs w/ religious sentiments by Christian composers

I always say that just because a text/lyric mentions Jesus, doesn’t make it sacred music. Wasn’t it Pope Pius XII who spoke of a distinction between sacred and religious music?

I hope that those who are trying to find every loophole…

No doubt people mean well but Vat II said we should be able to sing the Mass in Latin, with the GIRM noting the dialogue is of the first degree. Yet how many parishes do the four hymn sandwich instead?

Vat II said Gregorian chant should be given first place in liturgical services, but because other types of sacred music are not excluded you barely hear G-Chant if at all?

Vat II spoke of G-Chant and Sacred Polyphony as Sacred Music that should not only be preserved but actively fostered - being her greatest art and a priceless treasure. My understanding of other types of sacred music was that for example if you were of Vietnamese heritage and there was a sacred music tradition to your culture it could be used. Not that a parish full of Anglo white people in the USA could start singing Kumbaya.

Vat II said Organ to be held in high esteem, yet many hold it in little or no esteem, simply because it adds…

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and **consent of **the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

How does a strummed guitar, like some Dylan or Baez or pop song, accord with the edification of the faithful and the dignity of the temple. Same for drums during the Agnus Dei as we’re about to receive Communion, or the Sanctus as we’re about to kneel at the foot of the Cross.

Drums, bass, guitar are fine outside of Mass if people want to get together and sing the latest P&W songs, or Here I am Lord and it’s like (maybe having a special choir, like some gather for rosary or scripture), but are such instruments that necessary for Mass, at your ordinary Parish?

Dialogue is of the first degree and that is sung a Capella. I forget which Pope or document, but it says accompanied singing is not necessarily better or more desired.

 

[Melchior_1]

Enough is enough. Seriously, this is enough. I’ve had it.

I’m afraid that even some of our priests are not aware of this distinction, so poor was their seminary training. It’s hard to know about it unless one is taught, and we’re certainly not gaining this information from the average parish priest.

There’s some poor Priests and I’m sorry that you have had bad experiences with some of them. But I’d dare say the “average” parish Priest is, I don’t know, trying their best to lead their flock. I know several great Priests in my city, far more than poor ones.

I’m beginning to wonder why the specifics of these topics have not yet been addressed in a clearer manner by the Bishops. Perhaps one reason might be that, having been led astray by one of their own in the past ( a former archbishop whose career came to a rather disgraceful end)on such topics, they are
hesitant to speak out now.

Maybe it hasn’t been specifically addressed because there’s no need to do it, perhaps all the documents are already there. Or perhaps they are waiting a bit like previous Popes/Cardinals/Bishops did. You take a look at those documents and you can clearly see some time in-between the documents. This is a big enough deal they will not rush lightly into.

And once they do speak out, can you imagine the fallout?

Can you imagine the fallout if they specifically approve other instruments, like they have in the past? I imagine there was an uproar when the Organ first appeared, when Latin was first spoken in the Church, when strings and kettle-drums were re-introduced. Always an uproar.

Will the Praise Bands be content to play only for non-liturgical gatherings? Will they comply once they get the clarifications that they say are necessary?

In some cases probably not, but in most cases yes. The sincere “praise bands” will take things in stride.

Maybe all of this, no matter what side of the issue we’re on, need to send a serious S.O.S. to the Bishops.

Maybe it’s vague for a reason.

Things have been allowed to go on like this for decades. Some young adults (already married and w/ children of their own) have never known anything else! No wonder they play trucks w/ their cheerio-eating kids during Mass. They may have no idea what’s really going on, and considering the musical environment, it’s no wonder.

This. This…this is highly insulting. I’ve been playing drums at Mass for around seven years now and you’re blaming me for parents not keeping tabs on their kids or playing with their kids at Mass.

And not just this, but because I have had an active role in the faith formation of hundreds of teens the last several years, some of them are now older and are getting married soon. Some of them look after their siblings. And this isn’t counting the work I’ve done with RCIA. You mean to tell me that it’s MY FAULT that people are like how you describe? Or that the whole generation is like that?

The whole generation is not like that. And contemporary music has not caused the ills within the Church, it is merely a scapegoat that some use. Just because you’ve seen some things do not presume, and don’t blame people like me. Seven years I’ve toiled in the “fields” of a high-stress/high-risk Ministry and I must say I’m damn proud of “my kids” and what they’ve done. They’ve become sincere young adults serious about their faith and doing wondrous things, giving back to the Church Body.

I haven’t failed the Church, and I haven’t failed them.

Go eat some Cheerios, it might make you feel better.

EDIT: Don’t bother replying to this post, I’m checking out of this thread before I blow a gasket. Seriously. I’m not going to bother reading people who toss around stuff like what you did.

 

[snowlake]

I’m so glad to meet people who take this seriously. Although it seems that many people are attached to using pop styles in Mass, I think it is because it is all that is offered. Generally speaking, people in church are very kind and easy-going, and will accept just about anything just to be nice. But if they were exposed to true sacred music more often, I’m sure they would be able to tell the difference it makes, and I’m sure they would be “nice” about that too. It’s only the “pastoral” musicians who would be upset.

I long for a chance to attend a Mass in which I’m not so totally distracted by the music
offered. It is truly painful for me, no matter how hard I try to excuse it all. I was so happy to discover the writings of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul on the subject, then I knew
for sure that I wasn’t crazy and that my thoughts on the subject were not “outmoded”.
And now I’m happy to meet you!

 

[snowlake]

Enough is enough. Seriously, this is enough. I’ve had it.

There’s some poor Priests and I’m sorry that you have had bad experiences with some of them. But I’d dare say the “average” parish Priest is, I don’t know, trying their best to lead their flock. I know several great Priests in my city, far more than poor ones.

Maybe it hasn’t been specifically addressed because there’s no need to do it, perhaps all the documents are already there. Or perhaps they are waiting a bit like previous Popes/Cardinals/Bishops did. You take a look at those documents and you can clearly see some time in-between the documents. This is a big enough deal they will not rush lightly into.

Can you imagine the fallout if they specifically approve other instruments, like they have in the past? I imagine there was an uproar when the Organ first appeared, when Latin was first spoken in the Church, when strings and kettle-drums were re-introduced. Always an uproar.

In some cases probably not, but in most cases yes. The sincere “praise bands” will take things in stride.

Maybe it’s vague for a reason.

This. This…this is highly insulting. I’ve been playing drums at Mass for around seven years now and you’re blaming me for parents not keeping tabs on their kids or playing with their kids at Mass.

And not just this, but because I have had an active role in the faith formation of hundreds of teens the last several years, some of them are now older and are getting married soon. Some of them look after their siblings. And this isn’t counting the work I’ve done with RCIA. You mean to tell me that it’s MY FAULT that people are like how you describe? Or that the whole generation is like that?

The whole generation is not like that. And contemporary music has not caused the ills within the Church, it is merely a scapegoat that some use. Just because you’ve seen some things do not presume, and don’t blame people like me. Seven years I’ve toiled in the “fields” of a high-stress/high-risk Ministry and I must say I’m damn proud of “my kids” and what they’ve done. They’ve become sincere young adults serious about their faith and doing wondrous things, giving back to the Church Body.

I haven’t failed the Church, and I haven’t failed them.

Go eat some Cheerios, it might make you feel better.

EDIT: Don’t bother replying to this post, I’m checking out of this thread before I blow a gasket. Seriously. I’m not going to bother reading people who toss around stuff like what you did.

Melchior, is there some reason why you take so many things personally?1.No one said anything about poor priests, only about poor seminary training in liturgical music.2. If these “other” instruments are approved, then fantastic. We’ll all have to get used to it.
3. Good heavens! No one was insulting YOU, nor did anyone say it was YOUR fault.
No need to get paranoid here.The comment was about the psychological effect of a specific type of music . Casual music makes for casual behavior. 4. Who on earth said you failed the church or “your kids”? Where are you getting this stuff? Where are the phantom comments that you are referring to? These were simply general comments.
It’s not necessary to take offense, let alone such great personal offense, when someone is simply stating facts as they see them.
Although people including myself have disagreed with you and have attempted to promote the ideas of the current and last Pope and some liturgical guidelines, we haven’t taken
any personal offense to your comments. What’s up with all of this?

 

[Canto]

1963 - Gregorain chant should be given first place in liturgical services - Sacrosanctum Concilium Vat II

1967 - Gregorian chant, as proper to the Roman liturgy, should be given pride of place - Musicam Sacram

1974 - all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants - Voluntati Obsequens PVI

Fastforawrd a few decades and has anything changed…

2003 - Among the musical expressions that correspond best with the qualities demanded by the notion of sacred music, especially liturgical music, Gregorian chant has a special place. The Second Vatican Council recognized that “being specially suited to the Roman Liturgy”[17] it should be given, other things being equal, pride of place in liturgical services sung in Latin[18]. St Pius X pointed out that the Church had “inherited it from the Fathers of the Church”, that she has “jealously guarded [it] for centuries in her liturgical codices” and still “proposes it to the faithful” as her own, considering it “the supreme model of sacred music”[19]. Thus, Gregorian chant continues also today to be an element of unity in the Roman Liturgy. - Chirograph JPII

2007 - All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. - GIRM note: at some of the Parishes I’ve been to, becuase the music is too folk/pop and syncopated, the faithful don’t actively participate in the music

**2007 **- nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. - Sacramentum Caritatis BXVI

Is anybody listening? Or will we keep having the four hymn sandwhich?

 

[snowlake]

I’m so glad to meet people who take this seriously. Although it seems that many people are attached to using pop styles in Mass, I think it is because it is all that is offered. Generally speaking, people in church are very kind and easy-going, and will accept just about anything just to be nice. But if they were exposed to true sacred music more often, I’m sure they would be able to tell the difference it makes, and I’m sure they would be “nice” about that too. It’s only the “pastoral” musicians who would be upset.

I long for a chance to attend a Mass in which I’m not so totally distracted by the music
offered. It is truly painful for me, no matter how hard I try to excuse it all. I was so happy to discover the writings of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul on the subject, then I knew
for sure that I wasn’t crazy and that my thoughts on the subject were not “outmoded”.
And now I’m happy to meet you!

I’m sorry, I forgot to address the above to Canto.

 

[snowlake]

] Is anybody listening? Or will we keep having the four hymn sandwhich?

I have the same question, Canto. It is quite perplexing. A lot of trouble went into writing the above guidelines. They didn’t write it just to pass the time of day…I think the resistance to it in certain quarters is so great that those in authority are actually afraid to implement for fear that some will fly off the handle. And , of course, then the press will
have a field day.

To follow the guidelines would imply certain theological things that many groups have labored against for decades. There is more to it than just the music.

Something should have been done a long time ago. The longer our leaders wait, the harder it will be to implement anything.Quite frankly, I think the average person in the pew would not resist these beautiful guidelines. After all, who doesn’t like beauty? It’s built into our souls to worship God in this manner.It’s only the “pastoral” machine that gets so worked up over it.

 

[Canto]

I have the same question, Canto. It is quite perplexing. A lot of trouble went into writing the above guidelines. They didn’t write it just to pass the time of day…I think the resistance to it in certain quarters is so great that those in authority are actually afraid to implement for fear that some will fly off the handle. And , of course, then the press will
have a field day.

To follow the guidelines would imply certain theological things that many groups have labored against for decades. There is more to it than just the music.

Something should have been done a long time ago. **The longer our leaders wait, the harder it will be to implement anything.**Quite frankly, I think the average person in the pew would not resist these beautiful guidelines. After all, who doesn’t like beauty? It’s built into our souls to worship God in this manner.It’s only the “pastoral” machine that gets so worked up over it.

Thanks Snowlake.

Singing the Mass as opposed to singing at Mass is the goal. On the rare occasion when the Mass has been sung, I have found it so heart lifting, and more spiritual than (not) singing a few verses of a syncopated hymn that is too hard to sing and has lyrics that are boring and often don’t even rhyme.

Compare the approved antiphons (virtually always a direct quote from scripture) to the texts of the unapproved hymns that get sung at Mass and you’ll see which are superior, and (not that one’s looking at a watch) shorter.

In fact how many people are aware that it is a liturgical abuse to sing Here I am Lord? The GIRM says the texts for the Entrance, Offetory and Communion Chants have to be approved by the conference of Bishops.

For 30 odd years we’ve given chant the boot for dodgy hymns. Some people, in good faith, are accustomed to the tunes that are whistled night and day at Mass, with guitars, drums etc and if you seek to change this, some, thats some, accuse you of going against Vat II and wanting to turn back the clock to the 1950s and living in the dark ages - just look at some of the oppostion to the Re-translation of the Roman Missal for English speakers.

I say we should all be forced by Papal bull to learn Jubalte Deo

Then maybe people will see just why the council said that G-Chant should be given (and more fully in the Latin obtain, maintain) first (foremost, original, most necessary) place (position, heirachy) in liturgical services.

 

[snowlake]

Thanks Snowlake.

Singing the Mass as opposed to singing at Mass is the goal.

Speaking of singing the Mass, have you ever attended a Byzantine Rite Mass? Many
of my relatives belong to the Byzantine Rite. They put us to shame in the reverence category. I’ve been wondering how they have been able to maintain all of this throughout
the centuries, and not get caught up in all of this craziness.

Their take on the Divine Liturgy can serve as a corrective for us. Maybe all Pastoral Musicians and liturgists should be required to take a “field trip” to a Byzantine Mass.
The stark contrast might awaken some consciences.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

Yes, that’s what we need to do. Instead of being vague about instruments and songs… we need to ban all instruments and only chant… although I think we need to add Byzantine to our Gregorian. Oh yeah, but do it mostly in English.
[Ok it’s just my wishful thinking!! ]

btw after the Priest and “Through Him, With Him, In him…” the “band” played some gawd-awful guitar thing for the great amen… it totally didn’t flow… was extremely hard to sing along to (decending triplets with a strange cadence) and just was horrible…]]

 

[mariyka]

Yes, that’s what we need to do. Instead of being vague about instruments and songs… we need to ban all instruments and only chant… although I think we need to add Byzantine to our Gregorian. Oh yeah, but do it mostly in English.
[Ok it’s just my wishful thinking!! ]

I’m good with that!

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, that’s what we need to do. Instead of being vague about instruments and songs… we need to ban all instruments and only chant… although I think we need to add Byzantine to our Gregorian. Oh yeah, but do it mostly in English.
[Ok it’s just my wishful thinking!! ]

haha! Personally, as a few of us have been saying, I believe it would be better if the Church just clarify which instruments are permitted and which aren’t. The same goes with certain styles of music and styles of playing music. It has worked in the past when the Church did this. What it did was make the musicians and composers strive towards creating music or playing the instruments that would be as close as possible to what the Church gave in more detailed and concrete guidelines. And if it didn’t work, then it wasn’t allowed. Over and done. There was always a distinct line between the secular and sacred throughout the history of sacred music, even though people are no different today as they were 100, 200, 300 + years ago.

New music and new instruments always have and always will work itself into the liturgy because of the natural love of music by most and our emotional and spiritual connection to certain kinds of music. What always needs to be done, though, is to strive towards what the Church dictates in her rules and guidelines and we musicians need to be honest with ourselves as to what the Church wants and not what we feel emotionally and spiritually connected to, whether that’s an orchestrated mass by Haydn or a P&W song by Matt Maher. And right now, because of the ambiguity of the most recent documents, it is creating the debate that we’ve been constantly seeing over the past 40 + years. I know that some dioceses and individual parishes have been trying to correct this and “reign it in” because on one level they* know* what those documents meant, but to try to convince others is difficult because of the ambiguity. But until the Vatican itself issues something that is much more concrete, definitive and detailed, we will continue to have this debate.

 

[snowlake]

New music and new instruments always have and always will work itself into the liturgy because of the natural love of music by most and our emotional and spiritual connection to certain kinds of music. What always needs to be done, though, is to strive towards what the Church dictates in her rules and guidelines and we musicians need to be honest with ourselves as to what the Church wants and not what we feel emotionally and spiritually connected to, whether that’s an orchestrated mass by Haydn or a P&W song by Matt Maher.

Hmmm. I like this. When I was reading the above it made me think about musical styles and preferences, tastes, etc. There is such a great variety that no one could ever please everyone in any single parish anywhere…and then I thought about Gregorian Chant and how it is “totally other”. The perfect music for Mass…not connected w/ any style of secular music whatsoever. The perfect unifying element. No one to argue with. It is what it is…sacred, pure…sublime.
I also think that most “regular” traditional hymns achieve a similar end when played in their original style. They “sound” like Church music, not like rock, pop, country, broadway,
commercials, etc. Another instrument of unity - the afficionados of the secular styles mentioned have no one to fight with.
Question: I vaguely remember reading years ago that Gregorian Chant is the only “non-material” sacramental in the Church. I’ve never since been able to find this statement. Did
I dream this, or is there validity to this recollection?

 

[Canto]

Canto;6792193:

Speaking of singing the Mass, have you ever attended a Byzantine Rite Mass? Many
of my relatives belong to the Byzantine Rite. They put us to shame in the reverence category. I’ve been wondering how they have been able to maintain all of this throughout
the centuries, and not get caught up in all of this craziness.

Their take on the Divine Liturgy can serve as a corrective for us. Maybe all Pastoral Musicians and liturgists should be required to take a “field trip” to a Byzantine Mass.
The stark contrast might awaken some consciences.

I haven’t been to a DL but have heard much. I like the OF text to Mass, I just dislike the inovations and secularisations that leave the Mass feeling like entering into a shopping mall instead of entering into Eternity for the holy sacrifice.