MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[Cat]

That said, I’d have to disagree with your theory. If this was the case, they’d be leaving many Protestant churches which preach the same thing. I work with many classically trained musicians in the Church and outside of it. Yes, there are homosexuals in the arts, but never have I ever heard of my heterosexual and homosexual colleagues and/or friends talk about leaving because of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. Also, I can honestly say that most of the male pianists I’ve worked with at Catholic parishes (To date I’ve worked in many throughout 5 different states as a freelancer - so I’ve been to a lot of parishes, in which I’ve lost count, and have met and have gotten to know a lot of different musicians) have been gay and there are still a lot of pianists in churches. Those who are gay understand the Church’s and almost any other Protestant church teachings on homosexuality. Some may not agree with it, but they are also practical and understanding about it. It’s just a given to them that most religious institutions will teach this. Many are not even open about it to those at the parishes or not even practicing.

I’m not talking about the hired professional musicians at the parishes. I’m talking about the lay musicians. These people left our parish in droves, by the dozens, after the gay music minister was fired. They left other parishes in our city, too. And this HURT. These are the people who used to cantor, teach choir, sing solos during holidays, train teenagers and children to cantor, sometimes teach the congregation, help plan the music “strategy” for the entire year, make sure the piano/organ were tuned and well-maintained, recommend music, order music, etc.

And now they’re gone, and the church is left with ex-Protestants like me, who apparently make some of you throw up with disgust.

I was evangelical Protestant for 47 years, and I agree that many evangelical churches teach that homosexuality is a sin and would never hire an openly-practicing homosexual, or allow such a person to serve in a teaching position.

But there are many mainline Protestant churches that teach that homosexuality is a “gift of God” and that God Himself created some people homosexual and intends for them to fully enjoy their sexuality.

The code word is “inclusive.” When you see this word describing a church, you know they’re talking about welcoming homosexuals.

Examples of Protestant denominations that are totally accepting of practicing homosexuals are United Methodist, Episcopalian, United Church of Christ (not the same as the Church of Christ), some Lutheran synods, some Presbyterian sects.

There are other Protestant denominations that still include teaching against homosexuality in their Statements of Faith, but in daily practice welcome practicing homosexuals and even go so far as to deny their Statement of Faith in favor of an “inclusive” theology. Some of the Reformed churches (Reformed Church in America) are like this–yes, the doctrine of the Reformed Church in America is definitely that homosexuality (and all sex outside of marriage) is a sin. But in actual practice, there are some Reformed Churches that have become extremely liberal. Some of the Congregationalist churches have also become liberal in their teaching. And even some Baptist churches have become “inclusive.”

And then there are the non-denominational Protestant churches. You have to take them on an individual basis, because some are very firm in their stand against homosexuality, but others have learned that accepting homosexuals is a good way to increase the membership (and the offerings). Some are very “new age.” Without a denomination to keep them in check, they can teach anything they please.

Another group of “churches” that has provided a haven for many of the classical musicians in our city are the churches that I grew up calling “cults.” The main one is the Unitarian Church–many MANY musicians attend the huge Unitarian church in our city and make beautiful music. Also the Christian Scientist church–they are known in our city for their classical music and many of my friends regularly play or sing there.

ALL of the churches that I just mentioned are very happy to pay a handsome salary and benefits to their church musicians. I played piano for a while at the Reformed Church in our city back in the 1990s, and back then, I was paid $120 for one worship service. No Mass parts or liturgical songs, other than the Responsive Psalm. Just a few hymns–$120! Woo hoo! And that was a very tiny church, only a few hundred members.

When I was growing up in the Conference Baptist church in the 1970s, the Music Pastor received an annual salary of sixty thousand dollars. That was back in the 70s! The Music Pastor that they had in the 1990s was receiving a lot bigger salary than that. And our Conference Baptist Church is relatively small (around 500 members) compared to some of the big evangelical churches in our city, which have several thousand members.

Compare that to the salary of one of my friends who is currently the music director at one of the Catholic parishes in our city–in spite of her years of experience in liturgical music, she is payed a whopping salary of twelve thousand a year. She makes most of her living playing funerals, which generally pay $150 to the organist. Sad.

 

[Canto]

Jubalte deo?

Is this the correct spelling, please?

Jubilate Deo. Sorry.

Nume notation from the UK Bishop’s site
liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/Music/Jubilate/JD-Mass.pdf

Modern notation
ceciliaschola.org/notes/jubilatedeo.html

Audio files
adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

 

[Sarabande]

You will see the pendulum swing back when children begin taking organ lessons again, which at the moment, doesn’t seem too likely considering how expensive organ training is.

Organ lessons are about as much as any other musical training -. It’s a matter of people’s priorities and how it is encouraged. It also hinges on the parents’ willingness to take their child every day to a church to practice the organ, which most parents wouldn’t be willing to do. Based on how much I have to pay for lessons and knowing how much pianists/organists in my area charge for lessons, there isn’t much of a difference at all except for area (Manhatten vs small town, USA)

It’s a vicious cycle. If kids hear badly trained organists, they won’t want to take lessons because they’ll be turned off by the organ

 

[Monty61]

Yes, that “Lean on Me.” .

When I went to a OF Mass recently (about 5 months ago) where I live, the final song was a rousing rendition of "Blowin in the Wind! " Yes, that 60’s Vietnam protest song, Blowin in the Wind. With electric guitars, drums, electric bass, the whole 9 yards. Made me think in Jenny in Forest Gump.

 

[Canto]

The reason the organ is not played is that there are not enough people left who know how to play it.

There’s no spiritual crisis or encroaching modernism or anti-tradition rebellion here–it’s just a practical issue. If there are no organists, there will be no organ.

Then let’s sing a Capella. Accompanied singing isn’t necessarily better.

No need for a guitar to sing and also with you, Lord have mercy, thanks be to God, priase to you Lord Jesus Christ, Alleluia, Amen, Our Father who art… etc

In our city of 150,000, as far as I know (I’m very involved with local classical music scene and know many of the church organists and pianists), there is not one organ student. I personally do not see a revival of interest in pipe organ in the near future and so I predict that Catholics will see even less organ in Mass. I recommend training your ears and heart to learn to appreciate if not enjoy piano and guitar music.

Love and play piano. Love guitar too. Not at the sacrifice of the Mass though.

The reason that Gregorian chant is not used is that people don’t know how to “do it.”

Again, no spiritual problems or crisis here. It’s all practical. If people aren’t trained in this kind of singing, they won’t do it because they don’t know how and they don’t know where the music is or what’s appropriate or anything.

Then Priests and people should be taught, especially in Catholic schools. Vat II said that steps should be taken so we can sing Mass in Latin.

Simple chants are much easier to sing than modern syncopated hymns with lyrics that often don’t rhyme.

Most of the trained and competent musicians (sacred music) are working in Protestant churches that actually pay a living wage. I’m not sure why there are so few competent lay musicians left in the Catholic Church; in another thread, I proposed a theory that many classically-trained musicians have departed the Catholic Church to show solidarity with their fellow musicians against the Church’s dogma forbidding homosexual sex. Another reason why many Catholic lay musicians have left the Catholic Church is that their musical opportunities are greater in other churches and they have more freedom to compose new pieces and perform them in church settings (which means more income).

So many have left the Church becuase they support a sinful behaviour and oppose Church teaching?

BTW, I see nothing wrong with a musician wanting to make a living wage from his/her art. This is not worldly or evil, it’s practical. A musician wants to support him/her self and family just like everyone else.

I do see a possibility of a revival of interest in Gregorian chant, as it only takes one musician to train others.

Cool.

 

[snowlake]

(In regard to Cat’s comments) Leaving certain topics aside that are better suited to the Apologetics/Moral Theology Forum, I think that our Bishops need to be informed about the huge pay discrepencies between Catholic and Protestant church musicians.

That said, I personally don’t think it is the primary reason that the state of music in the Catholic Church is in such dire straits. Nor do I think it has to do with the exodus of those who disagree with the teachings of Christ (“He who hears you, hears Me”). The problem
is with those who might disagree with any number of things but STAY and hijack the liturgy to promote their own agenda, while (either willfully or ignorantly) ignoring or re-interpreting practically every Church guideline that has ever been written! This isn’t fair to those who actually do believe and accept everything that the One , Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith teaches and holds to be true ,and wish to worship freely in a manner encouraged by the Church for millenia. It’s very much like being held hostage.

 

[Cat]

Then let’s sing a Capella. Accompanied singing isn’t necessarily better.

No need for a guitar to sing and also with you, Lord have mercy, thanks be to God, priase to you Lord Jesus Christ, Alleluia, Amen, Our Father who art… etc

Love and play piano. Love guitar too. Not at the sacrifice of the Mass though.

Then Priests and people should be taught, especially in Catholic schools. Vat II said that steps should be taken so we can sing Mass in Latin.

Simple chants are much easier to sing than modern syncopated hymns with lyrics that often don’t rhyme.

So many have left the Church becuase they support a sinful behaviour and oppose Church teaching?

Cool.

In regards to acapella singing–I think for various reasons that the level of musicality of most people in the U.S. is abysmal.

The first reason is that many public schools and also private schools have cut music education to the point where it’s only once a week or so, and depending on the teacher, that little bit of time is often not spent training children how to sing. I also believe that some home school settings do not provide a child with adequate musical education, although if the parent/teachers are diligent, they will seek out opportunities for their homeschooled children to learn music. But there are many music “teachers” out there who really don’t train children in music and teach them how to read music and sing correctly, but merely teach them new songs and choreography–fun for the kids, but not an adequate music education. Homeschool families are especially vulnerable to coming under the influence of these musical “personalities.”

A second reason for the decrease in musicality is the rise of a “spectator” culture rather than a “participation” culture. In the U.S., we used to sing, dance, play, act, and enjoy our own home-made and home-grown entertainment. Many homes had a parlor piano, or someone played the violin or the guitar, and the family would gather for family sing–a-longs in the evening, and guests were invited too. Children’s games used to involved singing (Ring Around a Rosy, Uncle John, London Bridge, etc.) People sang while they worked and while they relaxed. Community choirs, music societies, and music clubs flourished across the country. And of course, in church, at least in the Protestant churches, singspirations used to be a frequent church experience.

Now we “watch” other people entertain us. We go to “concerts” instead of creating our own music. And Catholics want to return to a time when we merely listened to others sing. Ah, me. Is it possible that this desire of Catholics to not make music in church is not so much a hearkening back to tradition as it is symptom of the insidious nfluence of popular culture? We have been trained or perhaps more accurately, brainwashed–to listen to rather than make music. I think it would be a bad thing for the Church. The Bible tells us that we should speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord. (Eph. 5: 19)

A third reason for decreasing musicality is singing along with amelodic songs on the TV, computer, and radio. The ear does not get trained to match pitches, and many rock, jazz, and country songs “bend” the pitches as part of the style, so people essentially are learning to sing “off-key.” I don’t listen to much recorded music, and I never play music in the car or at work.

A fourth reason for decreasing musicality is the early exposure of children to polyphonic music instead of monophonic (one voice) music. In the past, a child would hear a mother or other loving relative or care-giver sing a simple, melodious lullaby, and this would be the beginning of a rich musical education. Now children are exposed to rock, pop, country, hip-hop, R&B, classical (especially Mozart, one of the most complex of the composers) and other confusing music styles from the time they are born and even before they are born! Children have a very difficult time picking a melody out of polyphonic music, and when they are exposed to this music and not the single voice of a person, or a single instrument, they don’t learn how to sing or stay on pitch. Hence the rise in numbers of children who truly cannot sing a song. These children grow up to become adults who cannot sing a song.

There are probably other reasons why people in the U.S. are amusical. My point is, it’s very difficult for people in the U.S. to sing acapella. It’s an unpleasant thing to hear because people sing incorrectly (often through their noses), and sing off-key.

I know the Lord will enjoy the musical offerings of His children even if they are nasal and off-pitch. Whether or not His children will enjoy the cacaphony is another question. I will be honest and admit that I really don’t enjoy caterwauling. But after all, the Mass is not about what I enjoy, so maybe bad singing from badly-trained people would build up my faith and help me to strive even harder to be worthy of heaven.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not talking about the hired professional musicians at the parishes. I’m talking about the lay musicians. These people left our parish in droves, by the dozens, after the gay music minister was fired. They left other parishes in our city, too. And this HURT. These are the people who used to cantor, teach choir, sing solos during holidays, train teenagers and children to cantor, sometimes teach the congregation, help plan the music “strategy” for the entire year, make sure the piano/organ were tuned and well-maintained, recommend music, order music, etc.

Thank you for clarifying this, as the original post made it seem like you were putting this on all classically trained musicians. Your city still must be an anomaly, though, as I have never heard of anything like this where droves of volunteer or amateur musicians all over the city leaving because of the firing of this man. That is amazing and I don’t mean than sarcastically. Although, I can imagine it occurring in the parish, itself, especially if the organist was well-liked on a personal level.

And now they’re gone, and the church is left with ex-Protestants like me, who apparently make some of you throw up with disgust.

I apologize. I’m a little confused with this quote. Can you please clarify or elaborate? Are you saying that prior to this event all the parishes in the city had volunteer classically trained musicians who did traditional music, well-trained choirs, well-trained organists, etc, and because they all left in droves after this firing, the dynamic of the music programs at all the parishes changed? I just want to be sure I’m not misunderstanding something because it’s a rare thing that one has a city which would have so many parishes with so much musical talent.

But there are many mainline Protestant churches that teach that homosexuality is a “gift of God” and that God Himself created some people homosexual and intends for them to fully enjoy their sexuality.

I understand that. That’s why I didn’t say all Protestant churches. I’d say more on this, but I don’t want this thread to become about homosexual musicians and how they work don’t work in the Church. That can be another thread.
.

Also the Christian Scientist church–they are known in our city for their classical music and many of my friends regularly play or sing there.

I used to work at a Christian Scientist church myself which paid pretty well. I didn’t know much about the religion or the reputation they had for high calibre music at the time. When I was interviewed, my prayer life and spirituality was very important to them. They didn’t want to just hire someone with talent, but the musician had to have a strong prayer life. I was very clear that I was devoutly Catholic, so they wanted to be sure that I would be able to attend mass, which I was. It wasn’t until after I left the position that I learned how big of a deal it was to get a music position at a Christian Science church. If I could have found a paying position at a Catholic church in the area, I would have done it.

Compare that to the salary of one of my friends who is currently the music director at one of the Catholic parishes in our city–in spite of her years of experience in liturgical music, she is payed a whopping salary of twelve thousand a year. She makes most of her living playing funerals, which generally pay $150 to the organist. Sad.

Yup. Pretty sad.

 

[Cat]

Organ lessons are about as much as any other musical training -. It’s a matter of people’s priorities and how it is encouraged. It also hinges on the parents’ willingness to take their child every day to a church to practice the organ, which most parents wouldn’t be willing to do. Based on how much I have to pay for lessons and knowing how much pianists/organists in my area charge for lessons, there isn’t much of a difference at all except for area (Manhatten vs small town, USA)

It’s a vicious cycle. If kids hear badly trained organists, they won’t want to take lessons because they’ll be turned off by the organ

Sarabande, I disagree with this. Most other instruments have an option for group lessons, at least in the early phases. We have a Music Academy in our city where children begin at age 3 to learn strings and piano (Suzuki method), usually with their parents. It’s very reasonable, and many children get started with this Academy and advance to become excellent musicians that fill the Youth Symphony and the regular symphony. I have a lot of competition winners who train at the Academy.

Most schools, except our public schools, offer band and orchestra, often beginning at 6th grade. There’s a nominal fee, but it’s not much, and it’s a great place to get started.

Many instruments can be rented instead of purchased, and the fee is cheap. Even a piano can be rented.

The school that my children graduated from (age 3 through high school) is now offering group piano classes. Cost is reasonable.

Organ is simply a different animal. As you say, the parents usually must transport a child to a church or university to be able to practice. And as the number of good pipe organists decreases, these musicians are able to charge higher fees, since they are “rare!”

Of course, an organist can make that money back again as soon as they are able to play simple hymns and liturgical music. Many churches and funeral homes would love to hire an organist on a part-time basis. There is still a demand for live organ even for Protestant funerals. And there are ball parks who still use live organists. And theater organists can still get gigs in cities like ours that have a real theater organ (restored).

 

[ProVobis]

Organ is simply a different animal. As you say, the parents usually must transport a child to a church or university to be able to practice. And as the number of good pipe organists decreases, these musicians are able to charge higher fees, since they are “rare!”

That’s true. As I once aspired to be a church organist (got turned down since there was a greater demand for guitars and pianos as I’ve noted before), I can say that one must be piano and keyboard proficient in order to play the pipe organ. The big problem I would say is the finding of a suitable pipe organ in which to practice. There is very little standardization in organs. Different stops, different placement of stops on the console, the number of keyboards, even the curvature of the pedals all make a particular organ unique. And then there is this little thing about electromagnetic stops. There’s a slight delay in hearing the sound of the pipe whose key you’re depressing, especially when the pipes are on the other side of the church. I know that blew me away the first time. So you can’t just play your organ at home and call yourself a church organist, though that is better than nothing.

 

[pnewton]

Then let’s sing a Capella. Accompanied singing isn’t necessarily better.

No need for a guitar to sing and also with you, Lord have mercy, thanks be to God, priase to you Lord Jesus Christ, Alleluia, Amen, Our Father who art… etc

That is surely one option. I prefer the support of an instrument to help maintain pitch and rhythm. If we had an organist and an organ, they would get first choice. If we get another piano player in the parish, they will be second choice. Use of guitar for us is better,* in our case*, than nothing.

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande, I disagree with this. Most other instruments have an option for group lessons, at least in the early phases. We have a Music Academy in our city where children begin at age 3 to learn strings and piano (Suzuki method), usually with their parents. It’s very reasonable, and many children get started with this Academy and advance to become excellent musicians that fill the Youth Symphony and the regular symphony. I have a lot of competition winners who train at the Academy.

(Edited for brevity by me…)

Organ is simply a different animal. As you say, the parents usually must transport a child to a church or university to be able to practice. And as the number of good pipe organists decreases, these musicians are able to charge higher fees, since they are “rare!”

Yes, we have something similar in our area who are taught by musicians from the cities’ orchestras. But I don’t think the entire picture is being viewed. This is where I also part of the vicious cycle I spoke about. If priests, parents, etc. encourage organ playing, you can have the group lessons again and eventually good students. My organist friend grew up having group lessons with his classmates at his Catholic school. Other organists I know had the same thing. They’d actually vie to have their turn practicing on the organ after school they were so excited to practice and play. It was viewed upon as important for Catholic musicians to learn organ then because they were the next generation. But something changed. Many organists were pushed out of Catholic churches either because of money or because they wanted the folk music and such back in the 70s and 80s, you got less good organists, thus less interest, less people caring about music in general… the vicious cycle.

Although, I can see how some organists (and other instrumentalists) may charge higher fees if they are rare, honestly, the organists I know who teach, don’t charge much at all, some charging just what the person can afford. Why? Because they have a vested interest in wanting to keep the art form alive. It’s the “desperate times call for desperate measures” idea. And it does work to a certain extent, but again, you need the support of the parents, the priests and the congregation.

Also, as a music student gets older and more serious about his/her art, though, the rates equal itself out for almost every instrument because they will take private lessons. It’s not unusual for a voice student in my area to pay between $85 - $200 an hour and there are tons of voice teachers. It’s worth it for a professional like myself to pay that kind of money in order to keep myself fine-tuned, and I usually have 1 1/2 to 2 hour lessons, but I know that many singers as well as instrumentalists who are just students in their teens and college age will pay that much along with their lessons at school.

Of course, an organist can make that money back again as soon as they are able to play simple hymns and liturgical music. Many churches and funeral homes would love to hire an organist on a part-time basis.

Yes, the one friend I spoke of, all the children would start playing for masses around 10 or so and be paid a small stipend which would be tons of money to a kid. A young family friend of ours who is getting her doctorate in organ performance, started around the same age and was playing simple Bach organ works at a young age for preludes and postludes at mass, along with the typical hymns and such.

There is still a demand for live organ even for Protestant funerals. And there are ball parks who still use live organists.

And there is still a demand for organ at Catholic funerals and weddings as well. I know that because I make a huge bulk of my music income doing these and they are almost always with organ. Again, we live in an area which still have churches that have good organs and we still have decent to excellent organists. They are also much more affordable (between $75 to $300) than hiring a harpist (between $300-$500 in my area) or a string group (between $800 to $2000 in my area).

And theater organists can still get gigs in cities like ours that have a real theater organ (restored).

That’s pretty cool.

 

[Sarabande]

That’s true. As I once aspired to be a church organist (got turned down since there was a greater demand for guitars and pianos as I’ve noted before),** I can say that one must be piano and keyboard proficient in order to play the pipe organ. **The big problem I would say is the finding of a suitable pipe organ in which to practice. There is very little standardization in organs. Different stops, different placement of stops on the console, the number of keyboards, even the curvature of the pedals all make a particular organ unique. And then there is this little thing about electromagnetic stops. There’s a slight delay in hearing the sound of the pipe whose key you’re depressing, especially when the pipes are on the other side of the church. I know that blew me away the first time. So you can’t just play your organ at home and call yourself a church organist, though that is better than nothing.

So true. I can always tell when an organist is piano trained. I much prefer their style of playing than an organist who just trained on an organ. Also true about what you say regarding different organs. You really have to learn your organ that you will be playing most of the time - all the “tricks”, “idiosynchrosies”, etc. It’s one of the reasons why when I hire outside organists for different clients, they will always want to have time to play on the organ to get used to the feel of it.

 

[damooster]

I am not a musical expert; I am not musically gifted; I like sacred music, but I very seldom hear it at Mass. This has become a HUGE annoyance to me, and I can’t seem to get beyond it. My pastor is a faithful, reverent, and holy priest who ALWAYS celebrates the Sacred Liturgy BY THE BOOK (semenarians, deacons, priests PLEASE, PLEASE don’t add to or subtract from our Sacred Mass!) but his reverent celebration is often surrounded by clunky, discordant, profane, non-melodious and difficult to sing *hymns. The question (2 parter):

1. Any suggestions? 2. When, oh when, will we see the pendulum swing back?

Peace be with you!

Unfortunately, V2 allowed for contemporary music. I just read through Musicam Sacram and, although it suggests that sacred music should be used, it also states that contemporary music can be used too. When you give progressive music directors that nod, they’re going to run with it and force everyone else to define “sacred.”

All I can recommend is that you speak with both the music director and pastor, but there’s obviously no guarantee that anything will happen. You could leave that parish but I cringe at the thought that people have to search out new homes because their parish has become too progressive.

Otherwise, you’re at the mercy of that music director.

 

[snowlake]

   I've also seen it where the pastor feels like he has his hands tied even if he'd want the sacred music back because he has a fairly volatile congregation who'd protest with their feet if they try to bring back some of that kind of music.

I wonder if the congregation would really care as much as he thinks…maybe it would just be the musical gestapo who’d be all huffy. If they think everything is relative, debatable and
“arguable”, then they should give sacred music equal time. With their line of thinking, this should only be fair. And if they give the erroneous and silly excuse that this is “turning back the clock”, then perhaps we should respond that this interpretation is “arguable”.

Your comment only solidifies my belief that the contemporary pastoral music scene is often led by those who often use scare tactics and are holding people (whether it is a priest or a parish) against their will. If the musicians do leave, perhaps the attitude should be “Free at last, free at last…” instead of “Let’s give in to their demands.” The fact that those on that side of the debate actually do sometimes leave is very telling anyway. What happene to the attitude “Where else would I go? You have the words of eternal life.”

 

[snowlake]

Unfortunately, V2 allowed for contemporary music. I just read through Musicam Sacram and, although it suggests that sacred music should be used, it also states that contemporary music can be used too. When you give progressive music directors that nod, they’re going to run with it and force everyone else to define “sacred.”

So true that they would “force” everyone else to define “sacred”. My response to them would be (after just having reviewed Musicam Sacram) that the document starts out by listing the types of music it will be referring to and this DOES include what it calls “sacred popular music, be it liturgical or simply religious.” HOWEVER, this type of music is discussed in

46 when speaking of music for POPULAR DEVOTIONS! Mass is not a “popular devotion”. Nor is it the only “liturgy”- the Liturgy of the Hours proves that.​

 

[snowlake]

damooster;6799961:

"sacred popular music, be it liturgical or simply religious." (preface to Musicam Sacram)

Again, an example of what was meant by the above term would have been helpful. My idea of “sacred popular music” may not be the same as yours. Our ideas are “arguable”
I find this a really wierd term. It seems like an oxymoron (I hope that’s the right term). Do the bishops consult w/ musicologists to make sure that the right terminology is used? I wonder what it really means. “Sacred” means something that was written specifically for the Mass according to the norms set forth by the Church…“popular” means something else.
Has anyone run into this term in any of the other documents? Or is this a term unique to Musicam Sacram? Can anyone help me define “sacred” popular music?

 

[snowlake]

Sorry for all the postings, but I keep having to go to the internet to read sources, and then come back. I would rather have put it all in one post. Maybe there’s a way to do that w/o
leaving this page, but I’m not computer-literate enough to know how to do it.

I just saw that Musicam Sacram was written in 1967. What was considered “sacred”
popular music at that time? Of course it would be different in different countries. In our own, what was that referring to? I only know of the Haugenesque things in the 70s/80s. That really was not yet in vogue in 1967 was it? Maybe it meant something like…“On this day, O Beautiful Mother”?..for a May crowning or something?

 

[snowlake]

I just saw that Musicam Sacram was written in 1967. What was considered "sacred"popular music at that time?

I was 7 at the time, and I remember my First Holy Communion…I don’t remember ever hearing anything like sacred “popular” music in those days, and I did not belong to a conservative parish. I’m trying to put myself back in “the days”…could that be referring to things like “Immaculate Mary”? Things that were not chant, but also not extremely “hymn-like”? I never heard anything really strange until about the 6th grade when the organist( electronic) played “I don’t know how to love him” from Jesus Christ Superstar after Communion. That would have been about 1971? Boy, things really changed quickly
between the late 60s and 1970!

I have a theory, and it is that the “sacred popular” music loophole is grossly misinterpreted. When did “Glory and Praise” come out? I never heard it until college - late 70s, early 80s. That type of music certainly couldn’t be what was referred to in 1967.

 

[snowlake]

My posts #s 153 -157 are probably way off the mark. I was just conjecturing, since I really don’t have the background in liturgical music that the rest of you have - just classical and a bit of jazz. But I’m more than happy to be corrected and taught! I really want to learn.