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ProVobis
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Not at all. I thought they were interesting.
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Cat
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I’m not exaggerating or dramatizing at all. This man was beloved in our city. He was and still is a fantastic organist, probably the second best I’ve ever seen in our city. Within a week after he was fired from our Catholic parish, he was hired by the largest United Methodist Church in the city, who made quite a huge publicity grab over it, bragging about their tolerance and how Jesus was tolerant.
A few years later, he moved to a larger city. But this year, one of the musical organizations in our city offers a concert by him as part of their subscription season–you see, the music community continues to bring him back to the city. He has been featured in other concerts over the last few years.
I honestly think some of this is orchestrated by various gay organizations that have discovered a way to get lots of publicity and look very tolerant and loving while making the Catholic Church look narrow and hate-filled. They are milking this situation. I honestly think they bring the organist back to the city to flaunt in the face of the diocese. I’m not sure if I will attend his concert or not. I probably will. He’s really good and worth hearing.
I think that the classical music community in our city has a very “union” feel to it. They stick together. I’m “in” it, but only because I’m willing to be involved with youth music and in charge of the large music competition for youth that will celebrate its 50th year this year. Also, I happen to like a lot of the classical musicians–I grew up with some of them. They are pro-gay because that’s the way the arts community is. There are many gay musicians, actors, artists, etc., and they stick together and are very loyal to each other. You hurt one, you hurt them all. If you have not found this to be true, then I would say that your city is the anomaly.
Yes. I would say that a lot of the good music in the Catholic parishes in our city–the “GOOD” music, the kind of music that many of you long for and claim is truly Catholic–was done or at least facilitated by these musicians. When they walked, what was left was people like me. I play piano. That’s all. I can play classical piano, but as you know, there are not a lot of classical sacred pieces written for piano, other than gospel. And I’m definitely not a conductor. I don’t know enough about music literature to faciliate.
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Cat
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It would be closed in a day. Yet I do believe that this is one of the reasons why there is so little good music in the Catholic churches. I think that the classical music community backs the gay movement and backs AWAY from Catholicism. Maybe it’s different in Europe/Rome where Pope Benedict XVI lives and moves. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again–he doesn’t understand the United States. I’m not saying he should back down. I’m just saying that unless the Catholic Church does some kind of initiative to train up more classical musicians and organists, and probably does so in their own Catholic colleges that are orthodox when it comes to dogma about homosexuality–we’ll see even less classical/traditional music in the Catholic Church.
BTW, I figured out something yesterday. I figured out that one reason why I am not really cool with classical/traditional music in the Mass is that to me, as an ex-Protestant, THIS was the type of music that we would hear in the mainline LIBERAL churches. In the evangelical churches, which strived to be true to the Bible, we played gospel and traditional hymns and of course, contemporary and rock. But in the LIBERAL churches, the ones who taught that Jesus wasn’t God, and that Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, and that it was OK to worship earth goddesses, and that homosexuals were created by God and should live out their glorious gift of homosexuality with others that they loved–etc. etc.–THESE churches offered the classical music, the pipe organ, the Mozart, Bach, Faure, Palestrina, etc.
No wonder I associate this kind of music with spiritual pap and dangerous teachings and liberalism and theatrics.
We did not get involved with these churches because of their dangerous and un-Biblical teachings. I would go to hear the concerts in their churches, but I wouldn’t have dreamed of attending their churches.
So to ME, the music that is most spiritual is the gospel, contemporary, traditional hymns (Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Holy Holy Holy, etc.), and of course, the rock. I associate the classical stuff with liberalism.
Now I begin to understand. I can try to switch my thinking, but it’s hard to switch my heart and stomach. Just like I still think in my heart that drinking alcohol is wrong, even though I can accept the teaching that it’s OK in my head–in the same way, I believe I will always hear classical music in church and think, “Gay rights! Women’s Rights! Gay pastors! Free love! No Nukes! Jesus was just a man. The Bible is full of myths. Do your own thing.”
I think that although some of the younger evangelical Catholic converts perhaps don’t feel this way, I suspect that other evangelical Catholic converts harbor some of the same background and perhaps this is why we see a lot of support for the 50-year old songs that some of you insist on calling “contemporary.” (I call it geezer rock and I really do like it.)
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Sarabande
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Cat - I’m not going to try to negate your feelings on the association you make, because I know that one cannot help one’s feelings. But I think you are reading too much into all of this. As I’ve said before, there are a lot of homosexuals in the arts, but the classical “community” is such a variety of different people with different beliefs, you can’t say the entire “community” does the above.
At the same time, you really have to take this on a person to person basis. You can’t associate a sexuality with one style/genre of music. (I know this is your feelings which is hard to break sometimes.) I will give you an example. My husband and I know at least 6 priests who abandoned their homosexual lifestyles to become priests. In each of their parishes, with the exception of one priest who is a musician himself, they do not like or have played classical or traditional sacred at their parishes. It’s not because they associate it with their past homosexual lives. Many of them are really into musicals and other kinds of worship music as well as rock and pop - music that they were into prior to becoming priests. I can also think of many masculine, heterosexual men (some who were musicians - if there is one good thing you can say about us, we musicians also do find each other out) who chose to become priests, yet either loved the classical/traditional music or loved the exact opposite.
Again, what happened in your city is sad. I’d have to really know the dynamic of your city to truly take it in, because, as I have said before, I have just never seen this kind of thing on that grand scale happen in the cities I’ve worked and the musicians I’ve worked with.
But, let us not derail this thread. You’ve got your feelings out on this. Perhaps you should start a new thread as this is very important to you. It might be an interesting one for many musicians to comment on.
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Sarabande
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(I had missed this) No, I doubt it. I don’t just work in one city, but in various major cities as well as smaller cities/towns throughout, to date, 5 states as I am a freelance musician and will travel hours each way for music performances and gigs. So, I meet all different kinds of people and dynamics of various communities, arts/music associations, churches, etc. Musicians are just like everyone else - we come from all walks of life and there will sometimes be different “cliques”, etc. within these. I’ve found Church musicians are an entity within themselves, especially ones who mainly do church music in whatever denomination, and even then you meet all different kinds. So, a general, sweeping statement made above is not really accurate. I try to take every one on an individual basis. Most of my colleagues do the same. There are some musicians we don’t like and others we do. There are some who the most wonderful, giving and loving people and others who are nasty, catty and liars.
Since I don’t know the dynamic of your city, I will take your word of what you say about the concrete “fall out”. The conjectures posed, though, may be true, and may not be since we can only surmise. I’m just saying, at least by how you described it, that it is a very large and serious accusation made on all classical musicians throughout the country - especially those who give of their talents to the Catholic church music liturgy. If an accusation of that level is made, true, concrete evidence needs to be presented.
And I hope you don’t think I’m picking on you. I’m just trying to get my head around it. It just really is unusual based on what I’ve experienced where I spend most of my life as a musician all over the place.
Actually, I’ve seen this done at parishes which has an organ out of commission and currently use a piano. All you have to do is play the same music on the piano. For instance, today I will be singing for a wedding in which the church hasn’t raised enough money yet to fix their organ. They currently just have a piano and we’ll be doing the Mozart “Ave Verum Corpus”, a “traditional” hymn, an Ave Maria and the processional/recessional all on the piano and it will sound just as reverent because of how the pianist will play the music. So, I don’t see the problem you would have in translating that music onto the piano. And as long as the pastor and your music director is fine with it, you shouldn’t have to worry about it. Yes, chant and organ are the ultimate, but, like in your parish, you have to work with what you have.
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snowlake
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Sarabande
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That’s a good point to make. There is a lot of beautiful sacred music written within the classical music style, but that doesn’t mean all of it is acceptable. As I say all the time, it is how the music is rendered. And it’s always nice to see how music for the Pope’s masses at the Vatican is done.
I think this is a great idea. I’ve sesen it done at a few parishes. Do a sacred and religious music concert. Start out just doing one a year. Allow a mix of up and coming young musicians as well adult musicians like yourself to prepare some repertoire. There are many sacred works that have been transcribed for piano. Maybe get current choir singers from around the diocese to get together and make one large choirf for the concert. Bring it up to the pastor and music director. And use your influence on the youth music organization to perhaps get the children to play.
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Sarabande
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Quite understand. I doubt the organ will be fixed any time soon. It’s like a $100,000 repair and they’ve already been spending so much on repairing the actual church. I will say, I’ve heard many an organ played extremely irreverently and in a ‘secular’ way like one was at the merry-go-round or the ball park, so compared to that it would be much more reverent and I personally believe just as reverent. It’s not ideal and never the same as hearing a well-played organ, but one must make do with what one has at one’s disposal.
So, all that said, it goes back to the question of what makes something secular? The actual instrument? The way it is played? The music itself? Although the organ is number one, the Church does allow for different instruments if it can be rendered appropriately. The same with various styles of music. All of this has been seen throughout history and how the Church handled it.
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snowlake
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The actual instrument and the music itself (compositional style) are primarily what makes something secular.
“The way it is played” or “rendered” is usually connected w/ the compositional style itself.
Could you please define what you mean by “rendering appropriately”? I know that the church guidelines have used this term. In what manner are you using it?
This is what I’ve gathered from your use of this term in your posts (and I may be off the mark): that if, say, a piano plays something “as written” for organ, this is “rendering” it appropriately, as opposed to the pianist playing the same piece w/, say, a rock-style chordal accompaniment or a “new agey” style.
But these things have nothing to do w/ “rendering” the piano appropriately because it
is actually the compositional style that is coming into play.I guess some church musicians do use “lead sheets” and create their own accompaniments, some of which can be “rendered” more or less appropriately, but none of these rendtions can make a piano sound like anything other than what it is: a secular instrument. Some stylings are better or worse than others, but all of that has to do w/ the music itself/compositional style.
The “various styles” throughout church history have been various SACRED styles.
All of these Franz Gruber-esque situations I hear of make me wonder why an electronic keyboard (w/ speakers) isn’t being used (w/ the “organ” button pushed). It’s a synthesized sound, but so is that of electronic organs. It’s a very affordable way to go for temporary situations such as this…and you won’t even need a trained organist, a pianist will do.
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Cat
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No, I’m not “anti-trad.”
I thought that the name “trad” was forbidden on this board. I don’t ever use this term. I have not in any way denigrated traditional Catholicism. Please stop assuming that I am some kind of “modernist” just because I like contemporary (50-year old) music in the Mass.
You might not ever understand my point of view if you were not raised evangelical Protestant and experienced what I have experienced. Did you actually read what I said?
I said that while I was growing up, the Protestant churches that played “traditional” or “classical” music were the ones that taught “liberal” theology and promoted “liberal” political causes; e.g., “women’s lib and women pastors.” The churches like mine that taught traditional Christian morals and Biblical theology (Protestant, of course) used Gospel music, traditional hymns (Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, etc.), contemporary and sometimes rock.
So when I hear traditional/classical music in church, I associate it with “liberalism”.
I fully understand that other people do NOT have this assocation with this kind of music. I
I am not using my own feelings to justify anything. I’m just offering a possible explanation for why I personally feel uncomfortable with “traditional sacred” or “classical” music. I realize that others, especially Catholics, do not share my background or experience the same feelings that I experience.
I am not proposing that my personal feelings be used as the means of determining which music is appropriate for the Mass.
OK?
The way I see it–if people are allowed to express their personal feelings on this board by calling OCP (Haugen, Haas, et. al) hymns “pap” and “drivel” and “garbage” and all kinds of other insulting and demeaning names because that’s the way THEY personally feel–then surely I am allowed to share MY feelings also. Isn’t that the way dialogue and communication work?
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benedictgal
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Cat, unfortunately, you are letting your experience at your previous Protestant ecclesial community color your view of things. Inasmuch as I understand that these are your feelings, as they taught us at work, they are not necessarily facts. You need to look at things the way that the Church sees them and read the authoritative documents of the Church. Just because you seem to have a fondness for the modern and the trendy, as I read your posts, that does not mean that such a genre is compatible with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Incidentally, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in his book, “The Spirit of the Liturgy”, had no qualms about calling such music banal. In fact, when I use that word to echo the same idea, I’m simply restating what he wrote.
At some point, as I see it, you need to let go of whatever you are still carrying from your days as a member of a Protestant ecclesial community and look at things through the eyes of the authoritative documents of the Church. There is nothing wrong with reading them. That is why she makes them available to the faithful any way she can so that we can get our hands on them, read them and heed them.
Unfortunately, I cannot say that OCP, and in some cases, GIA, has done any of that. I am hoping that the Holy See will intervene, now that they will have ample evidence, especially where it relates to the parts of the Mass where Haugen, Haas, Hurd and Farrel have paraphrased the official texts of the prayers of the Church.
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Cat
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I must be incredibly muddy in my writing tonight. I thought I had made it clear that I am fully aware that these are MY personal feelings and have no bearing on what is deemed appropriate for Mass.
benedictgal, I play or sing what I am told to play or sing in Mass.
I have never, ever been involved in selecting music for a Mass, other than when a cantor does not know a hymn and asks if we can change the hymn. When that happens, I allow the cantor to select the replacement hymn.
After my experiences in this forum, I would never, ever agree to be part of a liturgical committee to select music for Masses. That would probably make me take up drinking alcohol.
So your beef is not with me, but with the dioceses that I have been privileged to attend Mass in across the U.S.A., and especially my own diocese.
It really does no good to tell me what I should or shouldn’t like in Mass because I will do whatever I am told to do, and I will enjoy the Mass because I know that it is the way Church is supposed to be done. This is what Jesus established, and I am honored to be included at His Table and come forward to partake of His Body.
That’s the reason I joined the Catholic Church–because I don’t want to be the “authority” anymore, ever again. I had enough of that in the Protestant churches, and all it did was lead to frustration, conflict, and eventually heartbreak. If you like being the authority, God love you and God help you. I hated it. It was the major reason why we rejected Protestantism. We want to be able to leave the decisions up to the ordained authorities.
So don’t tell me. I’m not in any position to do anything about it.
Tell my bishop all your findings in the documents. Tell all the other bishops in the U.S.A. (including the ones in Grand Rapids, Michigan, St. Louis, San Diego, Minneapolis, and all the other places I have visited and attended Mass. From what you say, apparently only a few bishops in the U.S.A. are doing music the way the Church wants it to be done. Do you realize how utterly discouraging that is for converts like me? I’ll be honest, benedictgal, I refuse to believe you. I simply will not accept that so many bishops are so ignorant and rebellious and spineless.
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benedictgal
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Again, Cat, with all due respect, you are making this issue about obedience and are casting stones. Disagreement does not equate with disobedience.
That you do not agree with me, that is fine. That you seem to think I am lying is a whole different matter, altogether. Cat, we have been through this back and forth on many times. At some point, we should not continue pleading ignorance about what the authoritative documents of the Church state. Unfortunately, the diocesan powers that be do not necessarily read the documents. That has been my own personal experience down here. Even if the bishops may or may not read the documents, that does not mean that we shouldn’t read them. At least in my case, I cannot, in good conscience, do something that is against the authoritative documents of the Church. My best friend, who is a priest, is of the same opinion.
As for selecting the music, you do have some control over that. Please do not mischaracterize that as being Protestant, because it is not. Use the documents as your guide. Sadly, a lot of what the publishing houses have is not at all fit for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Somewhere in this merged thread, or in another one, I posted that even the USCCB had issued some findings with respect to what is being used today, and the conference found not a few of these songs problematic.
I can understand your zeal, but, we should not get carried away with it and take it to an extreme. It seems to me that when we start to look at things through the proverbial rose-colored lenses, we are putting blinders on the realities of the situation. With all due respect, I think that this is what is happening here. Liturgical abuse, inclusive of inappropriate music, does exist. We cannot ignore it. The Church is certainly not ignoring it. If liturgical problems did not exist, then she would not have issued a document like Redeptionis Sacramentum which pretty much orders the bishops to start looking at the problems within their own diocese. If the Venerable Pope John Paul II did not think that this was such a huge problem, he would not have issued the document. If he did not consider the state of music in the Mass during this day and age, he certainly woudl not have written his Chirograph on Sacred Music.
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benedictgal
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Actually, it may not be a bad idea to join your parish’s liturgical committee. Granted, it is not all hearts and flowers. But, if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing well, and it’s worth whatever sacrifices, tears and occasional blood shedding.
That is how I learned. Of course, it did not drive me to drinking, as all I drink is Dr. Pepper. Trust me, though, you will learn a lot.
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Cat
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I don’t believe our parish has a liturgical committee. Every year, the appeal is made for the congregation to get involved, and a large booklet is given out during Mass with a listing and description of all the various opportunities, committees, etc. I have never seen a “Liturgical Committee” listed in this booklet.
You say I have control over the selection of music? Exactly how? I am not in any position to make any selections in anything. It’s not my place. There are others who have been hired to take on this responsibility.
And I will NOT write letters and make appeals to priests who have many years of seminary and training and to a bishop who has his doctorate in Canon Law, while all I have is a piddling Medical Technology B.S. and 47 years of Protestantism.
BTW, I’m not accusing you of lying. I’m just saying that I don’t believe what you are suggesting about so many of our bishops in the U.S. I think they have more chops than you give them credit for.
You say I have control over the selection of music? Exactly how? I am not in any position to make any selections in anything. It’s not my place. There are others who have been hired to take on this responsibility.
And I will NOT write letters and make appeals to priests who have many years of seminary and training and to a bishop who has his doctorate in Canon Law, while all I have is a piddling Medical Technology B.S. and 47 years of Protestantism.
BTW, I’m not accusing you of lying. I’m just saying that I don’t believe what you are suggesting about so many of our bishops in the U.S. I think they have more chops than you give them credit for.
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pnewton
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The vast majority of what has been written in this thread is opinion, so you are not alone. Mind you I am not referring to opinions of what good music is. That would be taste. I mean the documents themselves, that are authoritative are guidelines and good Catholics must disagree as to how they are best applied, as we are all in different circumstances. Hence, the guidelines and not lists.
In our desire to be “traditional” we must also respect that tradition of subsidiarity by which the Catholic Church operates.
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Dave_in_Dallas
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Anybody listen to CAL yesterday (Friday)? Hellen Hull Hitchcock from Adoremus was on discussing “The State of Liturgical Music”
I have listened recently to her on a couple of older podcasts in addition to yesterday’s show. It seemed like she was admitting that it is difficult to describe what makes music “sacred”…
There seems to be enough “abuses” (for lack of a better word) that need to be corrected first before we discuss the genre of music played at mass:
– band or choir practicing right before mass, instead of letting parishoners have time of silence for prayer and reflection
– clapping after & during mass
– clearly secular, non-church music (Mylie Cyrus, etc) in Mass
– Piano or guitar playing while the priest is saying prayer or speaking
One item she did discuss was the whole piano vs. organ controversy:
– while the organ should have a place of pride, smaller or rural parishes may not have or be able to afford one
– piano player should play it like their in a cocktail lounge – players often play the melody too high on the register and difficult to sing with
– piano can’t sustain like an organ can so is often played too fast for folks to sing along with
– the organ is better suited because the sustaining tones mimic the human voice better and easier to sing along with
Come to think of it a good byzantine/eastern choir has the highs and lows that I guess does sound like an organ a bit…
Of course some of us non-singers can’t really sustain notes for very long either so we don’t want too slow of a tempo either.
I have listened recently to her on a couple of older podcasts in addition to yesterday’s show. It seemed like she was admitting that it is difficult to describe what makes music “sacred”…
There seems to be enough “abuses” (for lack of a better word) that need to be corrected first before we discuss the genre of music played at mass:
– band or choir practicing right before mass, instead of letting parishoners have time of silence for prayer and reflection
– clapping after & during mass
– clearly secular, non-church music (Mylie Cyrus, etc) in Mass
– Piano or guitar playing while the priest is saying prayer or speaking
One item she did discuss was the whole piano vs. organ controversy:
– while the organ should have a place of pride, smaller or rural parishes may not have or be able to afford one
– piano player should play it like their in a cocktail lounge – players often play the melody too high on the register and difficult to sing with
– piano can’t sustain like an organ can so is often played too fast for folks to sing along with
– the organ is better suited because the sustaining tones mimic the human voice better and easier to sing along with
Come to think of it a good byzantine/eastern choir has the highs and lows that I guess does sound like an organ a bit…
Of course some of us non-singers can’t really sustain notes for very long either so we don’t want too slow of a tempo either.
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Dave_in_Dallas
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Recently at a mass that while it had too much guitar it at least had a couple of “real presence / Catholic” songs mixed in with a couple of songs like “Breath” (or is it Breathe) that I’d associate more with a Protestant service… The outgoing song was something horrible with a 3-chord blues/rock progression that sounded like some kids’ song…
I guess I’m happy that they retained some Catholic-character-songs at the mass and the music appealed to most other people (this service attracts a large crowd).
Hey it’s better than hearing Michael Jackson songs at the United Methodist church I had been going to for the past few years – they did 1 song for a month as a tribute after he died.
Needless to say glad to be back home
I guess I’m happy that they retained some Catholic-character-songs at the mass and the music appealed to most other people (this service attracts a large crowd).
Hey it’s better than hearing Michael Jackson songs at the United Methodist church I had been going to for the past few years – they did 1 song for a month as a tribute after he died.
Needless to say glad to be back home
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