MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

[Cat]

I don’t see the connection between “On Eagles’ Wings” (which reminds me of Abba) and Latin. Is there a Latin version of the song that got mistranslated somehow?

Or is this just another cheap shot against the official language of the Church?

Not a cheap shot at all. A serious observation.

Many of the proponents of using Latin for everything make their case by claiming that there are no translation difficulties with Latin. They say that everything would be clear and uniform if Latin were used.

Well, I don’t believe that. Even though the language itself hasn’t changed, our culture has changed. What IS “sacred popular song?” It’s a good question.

What I’m saying is that I don’t believe common use of Latin will bring about uniformity of practice and harmony of discipline in the Catholic Church.

I would like you to get something straight, ProVobis. I personally don’t like Latin and other foreign languages in Mass. I like my own language. But I completely understand that Latin is the Official Language of the Catholic Church. I respect that. I understand the practical reasons for it. I think that the study of Latin is a great discipline not only for priests and other religious, but for laypeople, and I think that it would be a great thing for the United States if the study of Latin and Greek were restored to the curricula of public and private schools; it is offered at the private school where I sent my children, and many of the Latin scholars at the school scored Summa cum laude with a Gold medal on the National Latin exam.

And if for some reason, the Church should decide to make the TLM the norm for all Masses, I would gladly submit to their ruling and continue to attend Mass with a humble and grateful heart.

I do wish you would stop assuming that I am anti-traditional Catholicism. I am not. I am an ex-evangelical Protestant with a different background and perspective than you. I will never have the emotional connection to the Latin, Gregorian chant, and other Catholic traditions that you have because they were not part of my past and I have no love for them as you do. I have great love for the traditions of MY past–gospel music, testimony time, altar calls, etc, that YOU will never have any love for or emotional connection to. I am NOT proposing that my traditions be incorporated into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am merely saying that I have missed out on what you have experienced all your life and I do not “feel” what you feel or get emotional about what makes you emotional. I hope you can come to a place where you can understand that and not take it as an insult to the Catholic Church.

I can’t help what I was. I can only be grateful that at this later time in my life, I of all people was privileged to be led home to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit. And I can submit in humility and joy to the teachings of the Catholic Church, even though they are very different than what I was taught for 47 years.

Of course, it is somewhat difficult to submit to the teachings of the Catholic Church and Her human authorities, the priests and bishops, when I am continually reminded that these fellows are ignorant and rebellious. That is why I try to ignore those naysayers who insist that the apostles of the Church of Christ are somehow lacking in wisdom, and that laypeople must take up the slack. I am the one who is lacking in wisdom.

But one thing that I did learn from my sojourn in the evangelical Protestant churches is that it is not wise to listen to someone who has no authority. That is what I did for 47 years, listening to pastors and teachers who have no more authority from Jesus than I have. No wonder I am suspicious of those who are not ordained, and doubt their self-proclaimed wisdom. I’ve seen it all my life.

Jesus Christ has established authority in His church in the form of a human leadership base (the clergy–the Pope, the Bishops, and the Priests) for MY protection. If I choose to disregard their teachings and listen instead to people that I don’t even know from Adam, then woe is me. How can I expect the Lord to protect me, an ignorant and foolish ex-Protestant who barely escaped the Reformation with my soul, if I choose to accuse HIS ordained ones of being disobedient or rebellious?

Heaven forbid,

I choose to put my trust in the established authorities of the Church, my bishops and my priests and if there is error or irreverence, I will trust that the Holy Spirit will lead those men back onto the right path and help them to restore the Order that God prefers.

If there are those among you who are intelligent and gifted in interpreting the documents of the Church, and you have been led by the Holy Spirit to work to help the priests and bishops correct errors, then God bless you in your work. Far be it from me to accuse you of wrong-doing or improper behavior. As long as you are working under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, you are doing the right thing and like St. Catherine, you are helping the Church of Jesus Christ and therefore, deserve my respect.

But I do not know you. I cannot see you. I cannot talk to you. I don’t even know if who you are online matches who you are in real life. Therefore, please do not chastise me for choosing a prudent course and not immediately accepting what you say as the absolute truth. I, like many Protestants, have been fooled many times in the past by sweet-sounding words from people who seemed to be Christians, but who were not. I do not wish to be led astray again. Do your work, and if it is of the Lord, it will prosper and all of us will reap the benefits of your work. And if no one thanks you, and if people like me are suspicious of you, then you should rejoice, because even if others like me do not appreciate your efforts, GOD does and HE will reward you.

 

[pnewton]

If you have ever listened to someone who actually translates for a living, you would hear that it is almost impossible to translate perfectly. The Vatican does its best, however, to stick to the Latin as much as possible.

There are few downsides to Latin, but here we see on small issue. It is limited, as are all languages by the number of words. Here we really need separate words and do not have them.

Of course the easy solution is to accept regionaly authorities in areas that are not clearly defined. But every time I bring up something like Sing to the Lord, one would think I was quoting Martin Luther for the disdain the USCCB receives. For me and my parish, we will trust our bishops in regards to liturgical music.

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes, it has been known various words have been misspelled and yet there is no attempt to correct them. (Sound familiar in our English world? )

The one that is probably the most prominent is the misspelling of the world “seculorum” on our own dollar bills. It’s written as “seclorum.” But who has the courage to tell the U.S. government its currency is illegal?

-]Yeah, totally – Novus Ordo money is of highly questionable validity at best./-]

Actually, “seclorum” is a legitimate syncopated form. See Lewis & Short; the “less correctly” refers to mutating the ae into long e, but this is a standard feature of later Latin.

 

[snowlake]

OK, I’ll bite.

I would suggest that “On Eagles’ Wings” is a sacred popular song.

No one can say that “On Eagles’ Wings” is secular–I would ask them for documentation when they heard it on the secular radio stations or even the Protestant Christian radio stations. I had never heard this song before becoming Catholic./QUOTE]

It doesn’t have anything to do with a song being heard in a secular setting. It has to do with the actual notes and harmonies. I really like the song too, but it is (the music itself)
composed in a non-sacred style. It should be used (I’m only referring to the music itself,
not the text, which is a different subject matter) but not at Mass. It could just as easily be a James Taylor song.

 

[snowlake]

Of course, it is somewhat difficult to submit to the teachings of the Catholic Church and Her human authorities, the priests and bishops, when I am continually reminded that these fellows are ignorant and rebellious. That is why I try to ignore those naysayers who insist that the apostles of the Church of Christ are somehow lacking in wisdom, and that laypeople must take up the slack. I am the one who is lacking in wisdom. ]

They are not lacking in wisdom, but as they are not up on “everything there is to know about everything”, they need to consult w/ experts in other fields. It’s their job to decide, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, how this is related to the Gospel. Also, the bishops cannot go against something from Rome. If they could, we would not be
looking forward to the new translation of the Mass.

I’m not suggesting that lay musicologists write the documents or make anyof the decisions, but they need to be consulted for the language used so that the result is clear enough that we don’t have to have arguments like this!

You said that, from your Protestant experiences, you have learned not to listen to those who do not have any authority. But we listen to them every Sunday at Mass when
we are forced to participate in something planned out by a liturgy committee that does its own thing w/o regard to any regulations whatsoever. I’m referring to my own parish (Haugen’s Mass of Creation, loud rock-style banging on amplified piano, blue-grass music,
solos of Celine Dion songs, etc.).

 

[snowlake]

–I would ask them for documentation when they heard it on the secular radio stations or even the Protestant Christian radio stations.

It’s what is brought IN to the Mass from secular sources (compositional styles, etc.) that is the problem, not whether or not something has gone OUT and made it to the top 40. If this were the case, then Gregorian Chant would be secular - remember about 10 yrs ago (?) when the Santo Domingo de Silo (I hope that’s the right name) recording became very popular?

 

[ProVobis]

-]Yeah, totally – Novus Ordo money is of highly questionable validity at best./-]

Purely coincidental.

 

[ProVobis]

I would ask them for documentation when they heard it on the secular radio stations or even the Protestant Christian radio stations.

It doesn’t have anything to do with a song being heard in a secular setting. It has to do with the actual notes and harmonies. I really like the song too, but it is (the music itself)
composed in a non-sacred style. It should be used (I’m only referring to the music itself,
not the text, which is a different subject matter) but not at Mass.** It could just as easily be a James Taylor song.**

That too.

Here are the Abba lyrics. lyricsfreak.com/a/abba/eagle_20002818.html

Compare with the hymn lyricstime.com/josh-groban-on-eagles-wings-lyrics.html

I wonder which one inspired which.

 

[pnewton]

I really like the song too, but it is (the music itself)
composed in a non-sacred style. It should be used (I’m only referring to the music itself,
not the text, which is a different subject matter) but not at Mass.

Except, that it is not on any list of proscribed songs. Therefore, this is nothing but an opinion. Considering how many bishops and priests allow this song, it is a minority opinion. You said:

They are not lacking in wisdom, but as they are not up on “everything there is to know about everything”, they need to consult w/ experts in other fields. It’s their job to decide, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, how this is related to the Gospel.

The key there is that it is** their** job to decide. You and I have no idea as to the amount of consultation they get individually. It matters not that we do not know. At the end of the day, or job remains the same. We listen to our leadership.

 

[ProVobis]

If this were the case, then Gregorian Chant would be secular - remember about 10 yrs ago (?) when the Santo Domingo de Silo (I hope that’s the right name) recording became very popular?

Reminds me of the Singing Nun singing Dominque 30 some years ago. I wonder if that inspired the guitars in church.

 

[snowlake]

. I will never have the emotional connection to the Latin, Gregorian chant, and other Catholic traditions that you have because they were not part of my past and I have no love for them as you do.

Cat, I am really coming to like you because of your sincere revelations about yourself
and your love for the Catholic church, which you stick to even if this means that you have to “give up” some things that you are attached to. And I hope you are not offended when I
offer my opinions.

That said, it might be important for you to be assured that life-long Catholics (if under the age of about 55) are in the same boat as you are! You may have been exposed to more Gregorian Chant than the average Catholic American (by the way, Happy 4th of July).

My Dad was a convert, he converted right when all of the amazingly crazy things were
going on, and persevered until his cancer death 3 years ago. He fought the good fight
(or as the translation says now , he “competed well”(ugh) ) and kept the faith. I mention this because it might help you. Although you are dealing w/ music problems, he had to deal with really whacky things. He was a professor in a Catholic college, and had to witness such things as a priest professor OPENLY living w/ a woman (a religious sister!),
a Bishop who was very much aware of the latter and never did a thing about it (!), a priest who blessed the cigarette ashes in the faculty cafeteria ash tray and put them on my Dad’s head on Ash Wednesday (my Dad couldn’t make it to the Ash W. service that day).
And religious sisters who said of the Pope “He’s not MY Pope”, etc.

My point is this: although it is true that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, they will sure try. And it’s individual souls that get ensnared, even bishops. Yes, there is such a thing as a bad bishop. There have even been bad Popes. That’s why it is so important to educate ourselves - read the Catechism, church documents, etc., and try to find out how the Holy See interprets things.

I think it’s great that you love those hymns, etc., from your past. What’s to keep you from
singing them all day long outside of Mass?

Maybe some extra catechesis (not just for you, but for most Catholics) on the Mass is
needed. As you know, the Mass is not the same thing as a Protestant service. We truly are participating in the real sacrifice of Calvary, and it is holy ground.

The great thing about chant (and I’m not referring to TLM or Latin at all for that matter, although I know it IS important for us to have at least a minimal knowledge of it) is that
it isn’t tied to any secular style whatsoever. The “emotional” umbilical chords don’t come into play (it’s not cocktail style, coffee-house style, folk,pop, or even the CLASSICAL that you have such bad associations with). It’s simply sacred and universal. You say you don’t have any connection w/ it because of your past, but neither do most of us. But we don’t need to! It’s something to learn, to look forward to, a centuries old thing to become
part of, to insert ourselves into.

I’m just suggesting very simple things: the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, Sanctus. It would take a good while to incorporate even these.

 

[snowlake]

Except, that it is not on any list of proscribed songs. Therefore, this is nothing but an opinion. Considering how many bishops and priests allow this song, it is a minority opinion. You said:
The key there is that it is** their** job to decide. You and I have no idea as to the amount of consultation they get individually. It matters not that we do not know. At the end of the day, or job remains the same. We listen to our leadership.

I didn’t know there was a list. I’ve been told that the Mass of Creation is not to be used,
but am unaware of anything else. Where can I get said list?

The bishops “allow” things based on a half-complete analysis. They check the text to see if it is in accord w/Catholic doctrine. I’ve yet to see their analysis of the music itself. This is because the vast majority of them do not have the background to do so. This is not meant to be a disrespectful comment - just an observation. They can consult others as much as they want, but if those that they rely on are simply “liturgists” w/ an agenda (whether it be liberal OR conservative), they will get nowhere. In order to get facts straight
about music theory, composition, history and the attendant terminologies, they need to consult truly learned people.

You said “we listen to our leadership”. Yes. I agree. And what our leadership has said is so vague and so linguistically murky that we end up typing back and forth for eons on Catholic Answers forums.
In my opinion ( and I can always be wrong - I too will go along w/ the bishops in union w/ the Pope), the same thing is going to happen that happened w. the English translation of the Mass… we are going to be “corrected”. It will be a good test of who is actually going to follow Christ in the Church (as He set it up to be) and those who will follow their own inclinations, likes and wants.

 

[snowlake]

And I hope to be out of town when it happens. Say, on some remote island.

 

[snowlake]

I’ve been avoiding this, but have finally succumbed to the temptation to analyze a “song”
from the current repertoire. First, let me start w/ the following disclaimers:
1. I actually LIKE the song, and will not be held responsible for those who
misinterpret my intentions.. The main purpose of the analysis is to discover
the actual genre of the piece.

    2. I wasn't a Music Theory major, so my analysis might not be impeccable.
        Corrections are welcome. 

    3. This was a quick scanning of the piece. All that was available to me was 
        a lead sheet and lyrics. It was easy enough for me to provide the melody
        notes  myself.

The song chosen is: ON EAGLES WINGS by Joncas

The first verse starts with a dissonance on the the heaviest beat of the measure,
which resolves on the second beat, echoing many a pop song.

Still on line 1, the word “shelter” is accompanied by a tonic Major 7th chord, a pop chord that is derived from jazz.

Line 2 echoes the first line as far as the dissonance and tonic Major 7th is concerned, but adds another nod to pop/jazz: the syncopations on the second half of beats 1 and 3.
(on the word “in” and on the second syllable of the word “shadow”.) The ear immediately picks up on this pop cliche.

Line 3 sports a modulation worthy of Barry Manilow himself. Have we gone to the parallel minor and started out w/ the major III chord, or have we actually modulated
to F major ?(The lead sheet is in the key of D)

Now let us treat of the refrain. In the writer’s opinion, this is the stanza that everyone goes
ga-ga over.The first verse is awkward and quite homely compared to it.The refrain is true comfort food. Not only are the lyrics tres comforting, but the music
is as well. Lush harmonies, downbeat dissonances that resolve, jazz elements…let us begin our journey:

The first line sends us immediately into pop-heaven : the tonic major 7th is compounded by the adding of the 9th in the melody ( on the word “raise”, which is brilliantly lengthened
this time. Instead of it being short-long, as in the sycopations above, it is long-short, allowing us to bask in the luxury of the cushy sound for a longer period.)

The next line contains a jazz 9th chord when including the melody note on the word
“bear”. This is followed by a chord that has an added 6th on the word “breath”, another
convention of the jazz idiom.

At this point I concluded my analysis.
According to the facts found, this is a piece of music written in a secular style called
“pop”.
I submit my findings to the committee.

 

[Canto]

Interestingly, many members of this board have stated that “On Eagles’ Wings” is not appropriate for Mass.

Michael Crawford does a nice recording for those interested. The lyrics may flow from the Old Testament, but the melody (just looking at it know) is secular in nature.

Hey, I thought Latin was supposed to make everything clear as a handbell because it’s an unchanging language. I guess not.

Latin itself is a dead language or in other words an eternal language.
Latin itself is unchanging, but translations are not always the best.

The Popes pre and post Vat II have noted the unity of Latin, one only need read the GIRM.

 

[snowlake]

another nod to pop/jazz: the syncopations on the second half of beats 1 and 3.
(on the word “in” and on the second syllable of the word “shadow”.) The ear immediately picks up on this pop cliche.

For those who are not sure what this type of syncopation sounds like, think of the the first two words of “Give my regards to Broadway”. The word 'give" is short and the word"my"
follows close on its heals, and is lengthened, thereby giving a sort of off-beat emphasis.

 

[snowlake]

Addenda to analysis of “On Eagles Wings”

A more in-depth (if we can call it that) look at the song reveals several more
specific features that affect our research. The 1st and 3rd measures revolve back and forth (in the sung melody) between the submediant and the leading tone degrees of the scale, thereby emphasizing the tonic major 7th chord.

A most enchanting discovery is found in the melody at the end of measure 2 (an octave leap), and in the refrain (the second full measure has an interval of a 7th followed by
a jump of a 6th). In my brief search of “regular” hymns (such as “Holy, Holy, Holy”,
“Holy God We Praise Thy Name”, and the like) the intervals are never larger than a 5th.
The actual range of the pieces can be quite wide, but maneuvering from one pitch to another is not as “far-reaching” as in pop pieces. Considering these facts, this is not a good selection when in one of those Franz Gruber/Silent Night situations. If the accompaniment is absent, he entire congregation will end up off-key. Or rather in multiple keys.

The last observation is the fact that the piece has a lead sheet to begin with. This indicates piano and/or guitar, the much loved instruments of the pop world.

This only further confirms the writer’s thesis that the piece is written in a non-sacred
style known as “pop”.

 

[snowlake]

QUOTE=snowlake;6810161The first verse starts with a dissonance on the the heaviest beat of the measure,
which resolves on the second beat, echoing many a pop song.

An example of such would be the opening lyric to “Dancing Cheek to Cheek” on the
word “Heaven”. An example of an extended tonic major 7th chord sound would be that which accompanies the word “me” in the Errol Garner tune “Misty”: Look at meeeeeeeeeeee,
I’m as helpless as a kitten up a tree.
Same effect.

 

[HollyMustardSee]

man, this thread totally confused me.

I was hoping to get some answers…

 

[snowlake]

further findings in Eagles’ Wings analysis:

The second measure harmony combined w/ the melody notes are lifted from the opening of “What’s it all about Alfie”. That settles it!