MERGED: Music in Mass/Sacred Music

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dave_in_Dallas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
pnewton said:
Except, that it is not on any list of proscribed songs. Therefore, this is nothing but an opinion. Considering how many bishops and priests allow this song, it is a minority opinion. You said:
The key there is that it is** their** job to decide. You and I have no idea as to the amount of consultation they get individually. It matters not that we do not know. At the end of the day, or job remains the same. We listen to our leadership.
Click to expand...
Bless your heart, pnewton.
 
pnewton said:
The key there is that it is** their** job to decide. You and I have no idea as to the amount of consultation they get individually. It matters not that we do not know. At the end of the day, or job remains the same. We listen to our leadership.
Click to expand...
Do you know of any hymn they’ve actually disapproved? Do people actually write to them about the hymns? I don’t see it as a liturgical abuse issue so I would think most people who dislike a particular hymn just grin and bear it. But they may mention it to the priest if they think it’s overplayed. I mean “On Eagle’s Wings” may be fine once in a while but to hear it at every Mass and every verse and then the pianist might play it as a background for the rest of the canon might be a little too much.
 
I was at Mass last night and I had this thought:

Would we here be thinking differently of the music if we knew/realized we were really in the presence of God, and that our Holy, Holy, Holy are joining with the angels in heaven here on earth?

How would that color our view?

Will we clap for the angels when they’re done singing too when we get to heaven?
 
Dave_in_Dallas said:
I was at Mass last night and I had this thought:

Would we here be thinking differently of the music if we knew/realized we were really in the presence of God, and that our Holy, Holy, Holy are joining with the angels in heaven here on earth?
Click to expand...
I think we are all aware of that. I know I am. It is mentioned every Mass.
 
pnewton said:
I think we are all aware of that. I know I am. It is mentioned every Mass.
Click to expand...
I know some folks are… probablyt he fact that your on here at Catholic.com is a give away that you know or at least care more that many of the folks at Mass…

I just can’t believe that most people see the Mass as Protestant praise service… I tend to believe that most think that there is any “real” difference in the service between the Catholic and Protestants other than God is more spiritually present at our communion than in theirs… 😦

Most cradle Catholics are poorly catechized (especially from my generation – Gen X).
 
Dave_in_Dallas said:
I was at Mass last night and I had this thought:

Would we here be thinking differently of the music if we knew/realized we were really in the presence of God, and that our Holy, Holy, Holy are joining with the angels in heaven here on earth?

How would that color our view?

Will we clap for the angels when they’re done singing too when we get to heaven?
Click to expand...
Yes, with the limited human knowledge I have on this earth in this body, I would clap for the angels because that is my human way of expressing thanks and honor to those who have done well.

Once we get to heaven, perhaps clapping and other human manifestations of delight and wonder will be gone, replaced by something that we can’t even begin to imagine yet.

But we’re not there yet. We’re on Planet Earth in our human bodies, and clapping, at least in the United States, is an appropriate way to say thank you and express pleasure and awe, yes, AWE. We clap to give honor.

I’m not sure what you think an appropriate response would be to the angels or to the Presence of the Lord Jesus Christ among us during Mass. Perhaps you think that all of us should be flat on our faces in utter silence throughout the Mass. Well, go right ahead if that’s the way you personally feel. But at this point, as far as I understand things, the Magisterium has NOT commanded that all those in attendance at Mass must kneel or prostrate themselves and remain silent throughout Mass. I don’t think that they’ve come out and forbidden applause; I think ?? that this has been left up to the bishop/priest (subsidiary rule?)–if someone else knows for sure, go ahead and post the link.

My point is, we’re humans, and it’s OK if we act like it.
 
ProVobis said:
And how many of us clap to give honor to God?
Click to expand...
In church, why else would you clap?

In the Protestant churches, there is a custom of clapping with hands raised, as a sign that the applause is for God, not men.

In our Catholic parishes, if the priest asks for the congregation to express their thanks through applause, we applaud. Often this is done to honor a group of people; .e.g, the volunteers in the parish, or a staff member who is retiring.

It is understood that even though we are clapping for a person or group of people, we are ultimately giving God the glory for enabling that person or group to serve Him and the Church.

Some people are quick to ascribe evil motives to clapping in church.
 
Cat said:
In the Protestant churches, there is a custom of clapping with hands raised…
Click to expand...
I’ve never seen this in an uncrowded church but I did see people raising their hands as they were walking into a 7th Adventist Church once. I didn’t see any musicians so I assumed they were praising God from their hearts.
 
Cat, I just read something that might interest you. I never noticed this before, but am glad I ran across it:

#52. …provision should be made for just compensation for professional directors of music
ministries AND(my emphasis) part-time pastoral music ministers. They should each receive
appropriate wages AND (my emphasis again) benefits that affirm the dignity of thier work.
 
Cat said:
In church, why else would you clap?

In the Protestant churches, there is a custom of clapping with hands raised, as a sign that the applause is for God, not men.

In our Catholic parishes, if the priest asks for the congregation to express their thanks through applause, we applaud. Often this is done to honor a group of people; .e.g, the volunteers in the parish, or a staff member who is retiring.

It is understood that even though we are clapping for a person or group of people, we are ultimately giving God the glory for enabling that person or group to serve Him and the Church.

Some people are quick to ascribe evil motives to clapping in church.
Click to expand...
Then, perhaps, Cat, with all due respect, you might want to read what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote about clapping:
Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of the liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
Click to expand...
The only time, as I see it, that we, as the faithful could legitimately clap is during an ordination, where the rite calls for the faithful to give their ascent to the candidate (who is being ordaned either to the diaconate, the presbyterate or the episcopacy), an installation Mass where the rite calls for the faithful to accept their new bishop and when a diocese is erected, where the faithful accept their new status as a diocese.

Other than that, applause has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
from The Spirit of the Liturgy by Cardinal Ratzinger(now Pope Benedict VI:

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is
a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced w/ a kind of religious entertainment.” p.198

Religious entertainment. What might that be?As opposed to…sacred liturgy/music?🙂

This is not to ascribe “evil intentions”. The congregation is usually so good-hearted it will do anything asked of it…like sheep led to the slaughter?
 
A lot has been said about using secular-style music in the Mass because it has not been specifically forbidden by name in the USCCB documents. But what about actually DOING
things that they HAVE requested? (Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei in latin chant). This wasn’t just a suggestion. They said that ALL of us should be able to at least do that as a MINIMUM.

First we should do what they have asked. Only after that does anyone have a right to quibble about the other things.
 
benedictgal said:
Other than that, applause has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Click to expand...
Either do announcements, which is why they are usually at the end. It is not really practical to recess out, then come back in for announcements.
 
pnewton said:
Either do announcements, which is why they are usually at the end. It is not really practical to recess out, then come back in for announcements.
Click to expand...
Actually, the rubric in the Roman Missal specifically states that brief announcments should be made after the post-Communion prayer.
 
benedictgal said:
Then, perhaps, Cat, with all due respect, you might want to read what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote about clapping:

The only time, as I see it, that we, as the faithful could legitimately clap is during an ordination, where the rite calls for the faithful to give their ascent to the candidate (who is being ordaned either to the diaconate, the presbyterate or the episcopacy), an installation Mass where the rite calls for the faithful to accept their new bishop and when a diocese is erected, where the faithful accept their new status as a diocese.

Other than that, applause has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Click to expand...
Like I said, write a letter to my bishop, the guy with the doctoral degree in canon law, and more trips to the Vatican to work on various committees than most of us make to the grocery store in a lifetime.

Tell HIM, not me.
 
benedictgal said:
Actually, the rubric in the Roman Missal specifically states that brief announcments should be made after the post-Communion prayer.
Click to expand...
Right. It is the least intrusive part of the Mass. I have never objected to some honor given to someone at this time. It is not more intrusive than the routine announcements.

When I read what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote on the inapproptiateness of applause, I have always understood it to mean a spontaneous response to something like a really good song. I base that on the words “breaks out” and “entertainment”. Such things should not happen. On the other hand, the brief honor given an extraordinary accomplishment in the announcements would not be “breaking out” or for entertainment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top