MERGED: Music in the Mass/Not typical thread about Music

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Victor_Pearson

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Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music? The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding. Shouldn’t singing during the Mass be uplifting?

Victor Pearson
 
My home Parish offers several options.

Organ with Cantor
Organ with Choir
Contemporary
Spanish Mass
and a Spoken Mass…no music.

If you don’t like the music at your current mass, I would suggest you inquire at the parish office what other options they offer
 
Victor_Pearson said:
Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music? The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding. Shouldn’t singing during the Mass be uplifting?

Victor Pearson
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Agreed. Nothing is more of a put-off to me and a hindrance to prayer than a bunch of guitar players singing about us, instead of God. Not to mention the theological errors in many of the songs.
 
At our “youth” mass (which has many older people too) One can predict the songs by the local Christian rock station’s top twenty countdown. It is kind of sad actually as some of the songs are either too fluffy or very protestant.
 
Our parish uses plain chant for the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc. We are told that we are the only parish in the entire diocese that is doing this, so it is being done but unfortunately is not very common. As I learn more about the singing and how it supports the liturgy I am able to tolerate the modern singing even less. You might enjoy “Sing Like A Catholic,” by Jeffrey Tucker.

musicasacra.com/2009/02/22/sing-like-a-catholic/
 
Sure would be nice were it so where I go. I see almost more push to have the music “the thing itself”. Serves as almost a great (but beautiful) disruption to the simple flow of the Mass.

…long windups…overly loud…often “special hymns” for the choir…lyrics not in the our hymnal…long instrument trail offs.

I keep my mouth closed because the choir puts their heart and a lot of effort into it. But between music getting underscored…and some priests having to have their own imprint on the Mass…I am hoping for a bit more simplicity returns.
 
This is another thing I always struggle with, the reverance of musical styles. I guess it has a lot to do with what you are used to. Today I made a later mass at another parish, the priest there was a latin man, very charismatic in nature, he had a likeable way and smile. While preparing to read the final reading the choir?, guitar players, cymbal clangers and flauitists started up the strians of sing hossanna to the lord, in an unfamiliar latin mambo type of rhythm, Father then started this clap, clapclap clap, in perfect rhythm to the fast paced music, he was also swaying, almost dancing while motioning the whole church to join in the clapping!. I got this feeling that this was irreverent and prayed to myself sorry God. Then I seen this young man I noticed on the way into mass, this church has multiple entrances and as I came early I entered through the one to the right and behind the altar, this young man, maybe 25, wheelchair bound with his head listing to the side and shaking, his hands looked atrophied, it struck me how unfair for me to complain so much about my problems looking at him. This young man came alive during this singing and started clapping his damaged hands to Fathers rhythmic clap and was moving back and forth from the waste up with a beautiful happy smile on his face. I started to cry feeling so judgemental of this priest and the musicians, and thought to myself surely the Holy Spirit was at work in this young man, his parents were smiling at him joyfully. In the case of this young man I thought this had reached him, then I noticed that most of the other parisioners were clapping and smiling too, I was probably the only person in the entire church crying and feeling guilty. My point, I am not sure, but I will not be so quick from here on to judge the Celebration of the Mass by my tastes. I was thinking this was a Celebration, and we Celebrate the Holy Mass and who am I too judge how people are reached or how they choose to celebrate.

ed
 
I think that music that is seen as more “contemporary” can have it’s place in the Mass. It can be uplifting. It all depends on the song and how you look at it. But I think I can understand where you are coming from, especially when it seems liberties are being taken with the liturgy.

On a related note, what instruments are considered acceptable to play during Mass? Are electric bass guitars or some “non-traditional” instruments okay, at least in certain contexts, for use in the liturgy?
 
I grew up in a Protestant home and what you are describing sounds very Protestant to me. I’ve heard of the Charismatic influence infiltrating the Catholic church, is your church one of those?

One of the differences I always felt when I converted years ago was the focus on Christ suffering in the Catholic Church versus the risen Christ symbolized by the empty cross in the Protestant churches. Thinking of the sacrifice of the mass as a celebration with dancing and uplifting performance music just seems odd to me now.
 
Ed_Normile said:
This is another thing I always struggle with, the reverance of musical styles. I guess it has a lot to do with what you are used to. Today I made a later mass at another parish, the priest there was a latin man, very charismatic in nature, he had a likeable way and smile. While preparing to read the final reading the choir?, guitar players, cymbal clangers and flauitists started up the strians of sing hossanna to the lord, in an unfamiliar latin mambo type of rhythm, Father then started this clap, clapclap clap, in perfect rhythm to the fast paced music, he was also swaying, almost dancing while motioning the whole church to join in the clapping!. I got this feeling that this was irreverent and prayed to myself sorry God. Then I seen this young man I noticed on the way into mass, this church has multiple entrances and as I came early I entered through the one to the right and behind the altar, this young man, maybe 25, wheelchair bound with his head listing to the side and shaking, his hands looked atrophied, it struck me how unfair for me to complain so much about my problems looking at him. This young man came alive during this singing and started clapping his damaged hands to Fathers rhythmic clap and was moving back and forth from the waste up with a beautiful happy smile on his face. I started to cry feeling so judgemental of this priest and the musicians, and thought to myself surely the Holy Spirit was at work in this young man, his parents were smiling at him joyfully. In the case of this young man I thought this had reached him, then I noticed that most of the other parisioners were clapping and smiling too, I was probably the only person in the entire church crying and feeling guilty. My point, I am not sure, but I will not be so quick from here on to judge the Celebration of the Mass by my tastes. I was thinking this was a Celebration, and we Celebrate the Holy Mass and who am I too judge how people are reached or how they choose to celebrate.

ed
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Ed,
This is a beautiful story!
Thanks for sharing! 🙂

Music is a very subjective thing.
I often joke that if someone ever finds my ipod,
they will think it belongs to some kind of nut!! 😛
I have everything from Pavorrati’s Ave Maria to U2’s With or Without You!

I agree that during Mass, thre are some things that should not be allowed ( i.e. Let it Be, or Hey Jude for a responsorial psalm, sadly, I am not kidding:(),
but I also believe that people respond to different music in different ways.

I do know though, that being the Music Director of a parish is certainly not a job I would want!! :bigyikes:
 
Why do we include Martin Luther in our hymn books? He split the Church and cast millions of souls to eternal damnation, yet we sing his songs at Mass.

I suspect we’ve misinterpreted the word ‘celebration’ in our liturgy. Holy Mass is a representation of the Sacrifice at Calvary and the Sacrament of the Eucharist instituted at the Last Supper. Somehow I doubt there were cheerful songs and dancing on those two days.
 
I do find it very amusing (that’s probably the wrong word–interesting, perhaps is rather better) that every documentary and motion picture depiction of the Church uses Gregorian chant, yet most Catholics don’t hear anything of the sort on Sundays. It seems that these producers “get it”. Why don’t we?
 
stephraim said:
I do find it very amusing (that’s probably the wrong word–interesting, perhaps is rather better) that every documentary and motion picture depiction of the Church uses Gregorian chant, yet most Catholics don’t hear anything of the sort on Sundays. It seems that these producers “get it”. Why don’t we?
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I’ve noticed that too! Anytime Law & Order needs to depict the Catholic Church it is in an old fashioned church, Gregorian chant, a priest in black wearing his collar. It’s interesting how the world sees us is not how we portray ourselves.
 
Victor_Pearson said:
Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music? The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding. Shouldn’t singing during the Mass be uplifting?

Victor Pearson
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I don’t even know why we should have a discussion about it. I don’t believe any of the Holy Fathers or councils ever asked for the removal of Chant from the liturgy. I believe Pope Benedict XVI has told the faithful that Chant was and is supposed to be incorporated in the OF Mass.

The real breakdown in Church music happened during the reformation. Luther seeing the love people had for psalmody used it to spread his attacks towards the Church and her doctrine. Catholics of that time then decided to fight fire with fire and composed the same type of hymns in defense of the Church’s teachings. This however led to the deterioration in spiritual songs themselves and the manner in which they were sung. The effects of this can be seen today in the styles and composition of Christian music. It’s only logical that the devil would attack sacred music and work to introduce secular fashions into the Churches worship. Look what it’s done! It’s completely ruined the liturgy. 😦

In my opinion these secular forms and styles of Christian music show how earthly minded a lot of us Christians have become and that in order for us to even want to strive for holier things we have to first pleasure our senses with a bunch of electric guitars, drums, flutes, maracas and who knows what else. In the early days of Christianity no instrumental music was heard during divine worship because the Christians would not have their prayers mingled with the notes of instruments that were associated pagan/secular dances and idolatrous ceremonies. I think we should take a page from their book and go back to the plain Chant.
 
I_Love_U_Jesus said:
I think that music that is seen as more “contemporary” can have it’s place in the Mass. It can be uplifting. It all depends on the song and how you look at it. But I think I can understand where you are coming from, especially when it seems liberties are being taken with the liturgy.

On a related note, what instruments are considered acceptable to play during Mass? Are electric bass guitars or some “non-traditional” instruments okay, at least in certain contexts, for use in the liturgy?
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Back in the day, weren’t chants and organ-based music the contemporary music of the day? Does God really care? We were put here to offer Him, our loving Father, our worship and prayer. Nowhere does the Saint Joseph Confirmation Book say what type of music.
 
dconklin said:
Back in the day, weren’t chants and organ-based music the contemporary music of the day? Does God really care? We were put here to offer Him, our loving Father, our worship and prayer. Nowhere does the Saint Joseph Confirmation Book say what type of music.
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Would rap be ok? Perhaps heavy metal? Or are you willing to concede that certain types of music lend themselves to prayer, worship, and adoration more than others?
I like a good Christain rock concert now and then, but the Mass is a whole different type of worship. The mass is a prayer. I happen to think God does care that His people use liturgical music that lends itself to focus on the SACRIFICE of the Mass, not singing together with lighters in the air.
 
dconklin said:
Back in the day, weren’t chants and organ-based music the contemporary music of the day?
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No, chant was never contemporary music. The organ has only been in use in churches since the mid-1100’s, and many “Gregorian” chants predate Gregory the Great and even Christianity. Some of their melodies may even date to the Jewish Temple. Perhaps Jesus Himself may have chanted a Psalm in a synagogue to a familiar chant tune still in use. Music was not as ubiquitous as it is today in the age of MP3 players in every pocket, and vulgar music (i.e. the common tunes sung in taverns or by minstrels, not necessarily obscene) was never permitted in Catholic churches until centuries after Luther attempted to Christianize such music.
Does God really care? We were put here to offer Him, our loving Father, our worship and prayer.
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Yes, God really does care. He commanded Moses in precise terms how He wanted to be worshipped and how He wanted His tent and ark constructed and decorated. He detailed how Aaron and his sons were to be vested. Christ has given that authority to the Church, and Vatican II specified that Gregorian chant should “have pride of place” in the liturgy. While “other instruments” may be permitted by the local bishop, the documents also state that the pipe organ is the principal instrument of the Church.
 
dconklin said:
Back in the day, weren’t chants and organ-based music the contemporary music of the day? Does God really care? We were put here to offer Him, our loving Father, our worship and prayer. Nowhere does the Saint Joseph Confirmation Book say what type of music.
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We were absoultly put on this earth to love, honor, and serve the Lord my brother. 🙂 Yet I must say in regards to your comment “Does God really care” in regards to what way we worship, I would most strongly say yes He does. I think anyone who says God is not particular about the worship we render Him hasnt really taken a look at Leviticus.😉 Leviticus shows that God is very particular when it comes to how we worship Him. This is good because this shows a personal side to God which will alow us to therefore grow in our relationship to him.

Now in your confirmation book it may not say what type of music should be used it is however stressed by many Popes that chant should be kept and used in the liturgy. In the book “The Catechism Explained: An Exhaustive Explanation of the Catholic Religion” by Spirago & Clarke it talkes about the use of Gregorian Chant and why its important in the liturgy as well as why Congregational music and singing should be used in moderation if at all.

Regarding Gregorian Chant it says:

**"This style of music is called Gregorian, because it was brought to perfection and introduced into general use by Pope St. Gregory the Great. It is believed that it was by divine inspiration or through direct revelation that the saint did so much in the interests of Church music. This chant is marked by extreme gravity, tranquil solemnity, majestic dignity. It is free from all rapid movements, florid passages, all striving after effect. It is the language of another, a higher sphere, it is truly the voice of prayer and of praise. In the Gregorian style special attention is paid to the text, the words of which are plainly audible; the beautiful, subdued melody holds a secondary place. This style of chanting is not hampered by restrictions of time and measure, and that give it the irresistible power it possesses over the feelings, as an eloquent discourse carries away the heart.

Gregorian music undergoes no change; Like Latin, the language of the Church, it is always and everywhere the same. Hence it admirably corresponds to the nature and characteristics of the Church, particularly her unity and universality. Many devout Christians prefer this style of singing to any other, because it is a stimulus to recollection and devotion.**

Gregorian Chant was given to us by God through an amazing Saint! Why would we not want to use it always in our Liturgy? Why would we ever want to subsitute it for any other form of contemporary or secular style of music?

I say bring Gregorian Chant back!👍
 
Heliotropium said:
In the early days of Christianity no instrumental music was heard during divine worship because the Christians would not have their prayers mingled with the notes of instruments that were associated pagan/secular dances and idolatrous ceremonies. I think we should take a page from their book and go back to the plain Chant.
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True, but in the early days Christianity was small. A lot of the calendar dates for Feast Days were set on Pagan holidays, to get the pagans to convert. Place it on a day they normally use for fun, let then continue their party, and they’ll become Christians and worship ONE God (as it is supposed to be). Well, it wouldn’t be a party without music. So the music was then introduced as well. That brings us to today. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if it weren’t for (to a degree) the Pagans in the first place.
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Heliotropium:
Gregorian Chant was given to us by God through an amazing Saint! Why would we not want to use it always in our Liturgy? Why would we ever want to subsitute it for any other form of contemporary or secular style of music?
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It’s just like any song. After a while, one needs a break from it. I will say my parish uses Chant now and then, and the Assoc Pastor is working on using more Chant during the consecration. However, I would get fairly bored with Chant if that’s all we used. People need a little change from time to time.
 
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