MERGED: Music in the Mass/Not typical thread about Music

[TheMc]

I do find it very amusing (that’s probably the wrong word–interesting, perhaps is rather better) that every documentary and motion picture depiction of the Church uses Gregorian chant, yet most Catholics don’t hear anything of the sort on Sundays. It seems that these producers “get it”. Why don’t we?

Haha… They probably picked up the GIRM, read the parts pertaining to music, and since catholics are always so legalistic about everything, they assume that’s what actually happens in catholic churches!
"GIRM:

1. All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.

Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.

Back in the day, weren’t chants and organ-based music the contemporary music of the day? Does God really care? We were put here to offer Him, our loving Father, our worship and prayer. Nowhere does the Saint Joseph Confirmation Book say what type of music.

With all due respect, God does care, and we have documents that the church has given us to guide our music. In the old testament, people were struck dead for not following God’s instructions during the time when they worshiped. This is what the church has asked of us during Mass, and this is what should be done.

Also, what authority does this “Saint Joseph Confirmation Book” have behind it? Also, even if it did have the authority of a vatican (which I doubt it does), silence in one place on an issue does not mean ignore everything else, and do whatever we want.

It’s just like any song. After a while, one needs a break from it. I will say my parish uses Chant now and then, and the Assoc Pastor is working on using more Chant during the consecration. However, I would get fairly bored with Chant if that’s all we used. People need a little change from time to time.

Again, with all due respect, chant is not just “another song”. It is the proper music for the roman rite, and should have the pride of place in every Mass. Don’t forget that there’s many different settings of the ordinary, and different propers for every week/day (depending on the season. The liturgy is not about us and our preferences, it is a time to worship God in the way he has asked us to do so.

 

[Cat]

Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music? The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding. Shouldn’t singing during the Mass be uplifting?

Victor Pearson

I think that contemporary music is very uplifting and reverent. But I find chant of all kinds dark and theatrical, as well as amelodic and irregular in its rhythms.

That’s just my personal opinion. Music is all about personal opinion. The rubrics allow for many different styles of music, both ancient and modern, in Mass, thank goodness.

Hopefully we can all find something that lifts up our soul and helps us to worship Jesus.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

You are a stronger man than me (assuming you are a man). Listening to “Christian” rock would probably give a stroke, or a case of the hives.

But, you know, there was a time when there were some appealing Christian folk type songs. I’m talking late 60s. I remember “Lord of the Dance” and “We are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord”. I think both were Catholic in origin, at least written by Catholics.

At our “youth” mass (which has many older people too) One can predict the songs by the local Christian rock station’s top twenty countdown. It is kind of sad actually as some of the songs are either too fluffy or very protestant.

 

[Padraig1972]

Gregorian song-chants and Pipe Organ yes. Rap or any other modern musicforms = NO!
But then again, i like things the old fashioned way.

 

[stephraim]

With all due respect, God does care, and we have documents that the church has given us to guide our music. In the old testament, people were struck dead for not following God’s instructions during the time when they worshiped. This is what the church has asked of us during Mass, and this is what should be done.

One of my favorite Patristic writings, the First Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, has this to say:

Forasmuch then as these things are manifest beforehand, and we have searched into the depths of the Divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order, as many as the Master hath commanded us to perform at their appointed seasons.Now the offerings and ministrations He commanded to be performed with care, and not to be done rashly or in disorder, but at fixed times and seasons. And where and by whom He would have them performed, He Himself fixed by His supreme will: that all things being done with piety according to His good pleasure might be acceptable to His will. They therefore that make their offerings at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed: for while they follow the institutions of the Master they cannot go wrong.For unto the high priest his proper services have been assigned, and to the priests their proper office is appointed, and upon the levites their proper ministrations are laid. The layman is bound by the layman’s ordinances. (1Clement 40:1-5)

 

[Catholicpotato]

You are a stronger man than me (assuming you are a man). Listening to “Christian” rock would probably give a stroke, or a case of the hives.

But, you know, there was a time when there were some appealing Christian folk type songs. I’m talking late 60s. I remember “Lord of the Dance” and “We are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord”. I think both were Catholic in origin, at least written by Catholics.

I enjoy christian rock, in fact I am going to a concert tonight, I like to use it for entertainment and music in my everyday life that directs ones thoughts to God all day. BUT It honestly has no place in the Mass. It is a distinction that few get, they go to a Christian concert like the rock and worship roadshow that I am going to tonight and the sing, pray and worship, they have moving experiences and then bring that type of idea to Mass. failing to really have an understand of what the Mass is and should be. Not to mention the heavy protestant themes or else the fluffy no substance songs that are short on theology but long on “feelings”
Sometimes I cant tell if the band is singing to an obese teenage girl who has self esteem issues or God, and music where you cant tell the difference is probably not going to be appropriate for Mass.

 

[Cat]

I enjoy christian rock, in fact I am going to a concert tonight, I like to use it for entertainment and music in my everyday life that directs ones thoughts to God all day. BUT It honestly has no place in the Mass. It is a distinction that few get, they go to a Christian concert like the rock and worship roadshow that I am going to tonight and the sing, pray and worship, they have moving experiences and then bring that type of idea to Mass. failing to really have an understand of what the Mass is and should be. Not to mention the heavy protestant themes or else the fluffy no substance songs that are short on theology but long on “feelings”
Sometimes I cant tell if the band is singing to an obese teenage girl who has self esteem issues or God, and music where you cant tell the difference is probably not going to be appropriate for Mass.

This is an honest question, not a sarcastic retort.

Exactly why is Christian rock not appropriate for Mass? What is the reason?

I certainly agree that songs with distinctly Protestant messages have no place in the Mass. It’s difficult for me to name an example, as I think that songs like Amazing Grace are very Catholic, while others see them as Protestant. However, if a song is blatantly anti-Catholic (e.g., lyrics that say, “It’s only a symbol, not the Body and Blood, it’s only a symbol, my dear Catholic bud!”), then it has no place in the Mass. No brainer.

But assuming that the message of the words is “Catholic,” what is there about Christian rock that makes it inappropriate for Mass more so than classical music, traditional hymns (e.g., the “German” marching hymns, etc.), traditional praise (e.g., How Great Thou Art, etc.), folk (“They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love,” etc.) and contemporary praise (“Here I Am, Lord” etc.).

I don’t buy the argument, BTW, that rock music is distinctly secular while chant and polyphony are distinctly sacred. I’m very active in the music community in my city, and I hear a lot of “chant” and “polyphony” at the concert series that I attend. To me, it’s THESE music forms that are secular because that is the context in which I have heard them. I think that people who think that rock is secular have only heard rock in secular settings, and that’s why they think it’s distinctly secular. I, OTOH, have heard rock mainly in Christian settings (having been raised Baptist), so to me, rock is sacred music.

I don’t believe that there is music that is strictly secular. I believe that any music can be redeemed back and used to glorify God. When Bach wrote his music, he and his music were condemned by traditional church musicians as “sensual.”

I also don’t buy the argument that rock music is sexually suggestivel. I find the rhythms of classical music much more sexual and “driving” then rock music. I agree that no music in Mass, rock or classical, should be delivered by “babes” (male or female) in suggestive attire. But rock music can and is performed by people in suits and ties, with neat hair.

So what are the other arguments that Christian rock is inappropriate for Mass?

Thank you so much for responding.

 

[ArthurQArch]

Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music? The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding. Shouldn’t singing during the Mass be uplifting?

Victor Pearson

Plain chant sounds so good to me after enduring a “double Schutte” last Sunday.

 

[Catholicpotato]

This is an honest question, not a sarcastic retort.

Exactly why is Christian rock not appropriate for Mass? What is the reason?

I certainly agree that songs with distinctly Protestant messages have no place in the Mass. It’s difficult for me to name an example, as I think that songs like Amazing Grace are very Catholic, while others see them as Protestant. However, if a song is blatantly anti-Catholic (e.g., lyrics that say, “It’s only a symbol, not the Body and Blood, it’s only a symbol, my dear Catholic bud!”), then it has no place in the Mass. No brainer.

But assuming that the message of the words is “Catholic,” what is there about Christian rock that makes it inappropriate for Mass more so than classical music, traditional hymns (e.g., the “German” marching hymns, etc.), traditional praise (e.g., How Great Thou Art, etc.), folk (“They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love,” etc.) and contemporary praise (“Here I Am, Lord” etc.).

I don’t buy the argument, BTW, that rock music is distinctly secular while chant and polyphony are distinctly sacred. I’m very active in the music community in my city, and I hear a lot of “chant” and “polyphony” at the concert series that I attend. To me, it’s THESE music forms that are secular because that is the context in which I have heard them. I think that people who think that rock is secular have only heard rock in secular settings, and that’s why they think it’s distinctly secular. I, OTOH, have heard rock mainly in Christian settings (having been raised Baptist), so to me, rock is sacred music.

I don’t believe that there is music that is strictly secular. I believe that any music can be redeemed back and used to glorify God. When Bach wrote his music, he and his music were condemned by traditional church musicians as “sensual.”

I also don’t buy the argument that rock music is sexually suggestivel. I find the rhythms of classical music much more sexual and “driving” then rock music. I agree that no music in Mass, rock or classical, should be delivered by “babes” (male or female) in suggestive attire. But rock music can and is performed by people in suits and ties, with neat hair.

So what are the other arguments that Christian rock is inappropriate for Mass?

Thank you so much for responding.

Thanks for the response. Music is such a funny beast. I guess we can start by defining Christian rock. Is Steven Curtis chapman an example of what we are talking about or is Family Force Five and MXPX what we are talkign about? SSC is easy to listen to while the others are actually heavy metal alternative and screamers. I like them all, but it is hard to make an argument for FF5 or MXPX in Mass. I absolutely agree that there is not a musical genre that is “secular” or unholy. But I think we need to differenciate between music that can and does glorify God and music that is appropriate for liturgy. As Catholics we are the most fortunate religion to have two very important things that most other religions dont have, a huge rich history and a “governing body” It is in these two things that we should really look to for wisdom on these matters.
It just seems odd to me that the Chuch offers preferences in these matters but the best we can do is david crowder band and mercy me. All the Catholic artists throughout history and we are singing songs at the sacrifice that just substitute the word Jesus for baby.
It is also funny that no one CONDEMNS chant but I cannot ever remember hearing it as a liturgical music choice at Mass. Ever. Odd for somethign that has “pride of place”

We just put on a huge youth conference and the kids were the ones who wrote in the reviews that the music was too lound at adoration. You would enjoy the meetings I have been in lately. The subject is " are we to bring the faith to the youth or should the youth come to be Catholic." You might be suprised at what the youth are saying.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, God really does care. He commanded Moses in precise terms how He wanted to be worshipped and how He wanted His tent and ark constructed and decorated.

I do not recall that in the Mosaic Law. I do know his sister sang with a timbrel (Exodus 22:20) and that David advocated various instruments in his Psalms.

He detailed how Aaron and his sons were to be vested. Christ has given that authority to the Church, and Vatican II specified that Gregorian chant should “have pride of place” in the liturgy. While “other instruments” may be permitted by the local bishop, the documents also state that the pipe organ is the principal instrument of the Church.It does not say that the organ is the principal instrument in any document that I have read, only that it has a place of pride. If I am mistaken, I am open to correction.

 

[pnewton]

The Masses I have been attending use pop music of various kinds and sing hymns that a re out of the average person’s voice range or are just unpleasant sounding.

THis is my single greatest complaint about modern composers. I always make it a point to either change the key into one that most everyone can sing, or avoid the one’s with too great a range. My own personal taste goes toward the classic hymns, both Catholic and non-catholic.

 

[annaevers]

It’s just like any song. After a while, one needs a break from it. I will say my parish uses Chant now and then, and the Assoc Pastor is working on using more Chant during the consecration. However, I would get fairly bored with Chant if that’s all we used. People need a little change from time to time.

I, for one, don’t go to Mass for entertainment. I go for the Holy Eucharist. I concentrate on the Mass not on songs, therefore I don’t get “fairly bored”. And what I really abhor is, when during the school Mass, just before “Our Father” a “talented” fifth grader shows his use of drums! It is surely no boring… But the center of the Eucharist has been mocked.

Give me chant any day.

 

[Cat]

I, for one, don’t go to Mass for entertainment. I go for the Holy Eucharist. I concentrate on the Mass not on songs, therefore I don’t get “fairly bored”. And what I really abhor is, when during the school Mass, just before “Our Father” a “talented” fifth grader shows his use of drums! It is surely no boring… But the center of the Eucharist has been mocked.

Give me chant any day.

And I consider chant “entertainment,” because that is the only context in which I am familiar with chant.

So we are at an impasse here.

 

[Cat]

I apologize for cutting out parts of your very thoughtful post, but the word limit makes it necessary.

Is Steven Curtis chapman an example of what we are talking about or is Family Force Five and MXPX what we are talkign about? SSC is easy to listen to while the others are actually heavy metal alternative and screamers. I like them all, but it is hard to make an argument for FF5 or MXPX in Mass.

Why is FF5 or MXPX hard to make an argument for in Mass? It’s loud–so is a pipe organ when played with certain stops out. It screams–so does a soprano soloist who is past her prime, or any chanter who isn’t using the proper register of his voice. It’s repetitive–so is chant and polyphony. It’s full of melismas–so is chant and polyphony. The words are simple–so is polyphony–often just “alleluia” over and over again. It makes use of metal–so what’s a trumpet or a french horn, or for that matter, an organ pipe made of?

I don’t think it’s hard to make an argument for the “heavier” styles of rock music in Mass. Over and over we hear disgust with the fluffy music that is often used to glorify God. Well, heavy rock music is strong and mighty and impossible to ignore, just like a pipe organ with all stops out.

It is also funny that no one CONDEMNS chant but I cannot ever remember hearing it as a liturgical music choice at Mass. Ever. Odd for somethign that has “pride of place”

I don’t find it odd at all. Chant is difficult to learn. It’s not “Western” music. It is amelodic and has irregular rhythm–this is difficult for Americans to learn.

Remember that in many cities, the public schools no longer teach music (usually due to budget constraints), or at best, teach a “glee club” approach to music that’s fun and reflective of cultural diversity (in other words, that includes hip-hop and rap). This means that many of the people in the church have no clue about reading music or singing correctly. We have at least two generations now in the churches who have come through this kind of very inadequate music education program.

This summer several thoughtful posters on CAF sent me links to several sites that claim
to “teach” people how to sing chant. The posters claimed that these sites would make everything clear to me. Well, no they didn’t make everything clear at all. After just a few paragraphs, I was utterly confused, and I would never be able to learn how to sing this stuff without attending a workshop taught by a live teacher. And I have strong music background and play piano! I can’t even imagine the average church-goer learning chant, especially Gregorian chant.

We just put on a huge youth conference and the kids were the ones who wrote in the reviews that the music was too lound at adoration. You would enjoy the meetings I have been in lately. The subject is " are we to bring the faith to the youth or should the youth come to be Catholic." You might be suprised at what the youth are saying.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all. From what I have seen, the traditionalists are much more vocal than everyone else, and even though they are a decided minority, they sound much “bigger” than they are because they do speak out. You really have to be careful here. What you have to look at is “which” youth are “saying” stuff, and what kind of numbers are we talking about?

This is just my opinion based on my observations in my city (around 150,000 pop.), but I suspect that the young people who are most vocal are those who have problems with the contemporary music, and they are speaking up in favor of traditional and ancient music. Meanwhile the majority of youth were just fine with the “loud” music, and have no interest whatsoever in ancient music. In fact, they actually wish that there could be more rock music in the Mass.

I think the same thing is true for older Catholics in the U.S. Most Catholics are very happy with the mix of contemporary and traditional music in their Masses. But a small and very vocal group is sounding out in favor of more ancient music and more traditional styles (chant and polyphony), and they give the impression that they are the majority. And that’s just not really the truth.

In our city, we have a TLM that is offered daily and several times on Sunday. There is a schola in this church taught by an excellent musician and teacher. We also have a Life Teen Mass within a few miles of the TLM church (a reverent and liturgically-correct Life Teen Mass, not one of the Masses where the teens gather round the altar and girls dance down the aisle).

The TLM Mass has a few teenagers in the schola, all home-schooled from very traditional Catholic families. There is no stampede of teenagers rushing to join this schola and sing chant and polyphony and Latin hymns and listen to a pipe organ.

The Life Teen Mass attracts several hundred teenagers, and there is an enthusiastic group of singers and musicians who play/sing in the “rock band.” (It’s actually a pop band, IMO.) Throughout the Life Teen Mass, the teens join in the singing; they don’t just stand there.

I realize that I’m seeing just one city here, and we might be the oddball exception to all the other cities in the U.S. But I don’t think so. I honestly think that we are probably very typical, and that this same scenario is happening in cities all over the U.S.

And I think that this is one reason why the Catholic Church doesn’t come down heavier when it comes to music. What good would it do for them to insist on chant in every Mass when so few people know how to do it? And why take away music that is actually quite reverent? The Church doesn’t want to see people leave the Church over music. So they give us quite a bit of freedom in the Mass, and I personally am grateful for this.

 

[TheMc]

It does not say that the organ is the principal instrument in any document that I have read, only that it has a place of pride. If I am mistaken, I am open to correction.

Here is a quote from De Musica Sacra, Par 61. I’m sure there are probably others, but this is what I found first.
De Musica Sacra:

The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ…

 

[TheMc]

Why is FF5 or MXPX hard to make an argument for in Mass? It’s loud–so is a pipe organ when played with certain stops out. It screams–so does a soprano soloist who is past her prime, or any chanter who isn’t using the proper register of his voice. It’s repetitive–so is chant and polyphony. It’s full of melismas–so is chant and polyphony. The words are simple–so is polyphony–often just “alleluia” over and over again. It makes use of metal–so what’s a trumpet or a french horn, or for that matter, an organ pipe made of?

70. Musical instruments which by common acception, and use are suitable only for secular music must be entirely excluded from all liturgical functions, and private devotions.
-De Musica Sacra

This seems to speak for itself.

I don’t find it odd at all. Chant is difficult to learn. It’s not “Western” music. It is amelodic and has irregular rhythm–this is difficult for Americans to learn.

Part of the problem is that people don’t want to learn it.

For example, when shown something like this, do you believe many parishes would adopt it?

Seriously, it takes ten minutes for a group of kids to learn the three major propers for a whole Sunday Mass (Introit, offeretory, communion), which should take first priority before hymns. This should be “easy pickin’s” for any real “adult” choir, as well as any children’s choir with kids over the age of 8 or 9.

How about Missa Jubilate Deo? How many parishes would adopt that after knowing that chant should have the pride of place? It’s not hard to learn. Really.

I very highly doubt that “not knowing how to chant” is the real problem here.

Another thing. We should not deprive the faithful of what is rightfully theirs just because they are unfamiliar with it.

This summer several thoughtful posters on CAF sent me links to several sites that claim to “teach” people how to sing chant. The posters claimed that these sites would make everything clear to me. Well, no they didn’t make everything clear at all. …] And I have strong music background and play piano! I can’t even imagine the average church-goer learning chant, especially Gregorian chant.

Perhaps we should have more diocesan workshops then! I attended one.
It’s not that hard, if you have someone to teach you in person. Again, if people want to learn how, they will come. If not, then them not knowing how is not the main problem.

Just my two cents.

 

[stormy99]

I think that music that is seen as more “contemporary” can have it’s place in the Mass. It can be uplifting. It all depends on the song and how you look at it. But I think I can understand where you are coming from, especially when it seems liberties are being taken with the liturgy.

On a related note, what instruments are considered acceptable to play during Mass? Are electric bass guitars or some “non-traditional” instruments okay, at least in certain contexts, for use in the liturgy?

**I cringe when I hear the flute…never did like it and still don’t…in our Parish to hear less singing…it’s the 5:30 pm mass on Saturday…plain chant a few hymns and that’s it…I like it that way.

stormy

I never sit anywhere near the choir…had to before confirmation and said never again…**

 

[Bbigam]

Why do we include Martin Luther in our hymn books? He split the Church and cast millions of souls to eternal damnation, yet we sing his songs at Mass.

I suspect we’ve misinterpreted the word ‘celebration’ in our liturgy. Holy Mass is a representation of the Sacrifice at Calvary and the Sacrament of the Eucharist instituted at the Last Supper. Somehow I doubt there were cheerful songs and dancing on those two days.

Whoa! I don’t like having Martin Luther’s songs sung in a Catholic Church, and he certainly was instrumental in splitting the Church… but it’s going way too far to say he “cast millions of souls to eternal damnation.” One, a human doesn’t have the power to cast other humans into hell. Two, the Church does not declare that anyone in particular has gone to eternal damnation. He certainly helped endanger many souls, but we do not know their final state.

 

[Victor_Pearson]

I’d like to thank everyone who replied to my question about the use of music that is not spiritually uplifting in the mass and the apparent abandonment of plain chant. The view points were numerous and interesting, some going off in unexpected directions.

My preference for traditional “music” might be a minority one at this time but I think it is none-the-less important. The “Catholic” Church falls short of its name if it excludes or ignores minorities. Popular music is great at concerts, parties and dances or at just about any readily available venue besides the church. One can hear popular music anywhere. It is not so easy to find sacred and solemn music. I personally love to dance to all types of music - and perhaps the Catholic Church might introduce dancing to the liturgy. I haven’t been able to meditate or pray to most dance music or to hymns, show tunes, hip-hop and most rock.

Loudness was also brought up. The pipe organs are amplified these days. The pipe organs are unnecessary but okay if played quietly. The human voice is the greatest instrument of praise. Why drown it out? My question now becomes: Can simple singing be revived in the church?

 

[nickybr38]

Just throwing in my two cents.

Whenever the music becomes about our entertainment and about OUR edification instead of being for God’s praise… we’re probably on the wrong path. It really isn’t about our personal opinions, it’s about what pleases God. Sure, He’s happy if we’re happy… but I don’t think He’s happy when we’re so focused on ourselves we cease to look to Him.

This morning at Mass the praise group was leading us in the most boring and dismal rendition of my absolutely favorite hymns… and at first I just wanted to fall to the floor and sob… really guys, it was that bad. However, halfway through their truly horrible rendition of the hosanna I suddenly thought to myself; This isn’t for me, this is for You Lord. And I found myself grinning from ear to ear. Suddenly music I absolutely hated became bearable because it wasn’t for me, and it’s not supposed to be for me.

I sang my HEART out, even if I absolutely despised how they were butchering those songs. And I noticed the louder I sang the louder those beside me sang (probably to drown me out ) and somehow we were joined in praising God, even if the music sucked.



That said, I really don’t understand how someone can’t like Chant. That’s like saying Mozart is boring. :\ Haha!

Edited to Add; I’d actually prefer if there was NO music. I have a very difficult time praying before, during and after mass because of all the music… it’s highly distracting sometimes. I’m probably the minority on that one though.