MERGED: Music in the Mass/Not typical thread about Music

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I agree that the Church needs to explain to those of us who live in the United States exactly what is meant by “pride of place.”

In my family for several generations, when we speak of something that has “pride of place,” it means that we put it on a high shelf, sometimes even under glass, and sometimes locked up, and we never, ever touch it other than when one designated person, usually a very mature adult, takes it down to dust/clean it. It is too valuable to touch, let alone use on a daily basis. We simply admire it from a distance. If it is something like good china or glassware, we might possibly get it out and use it once a year, or maybe only for extremely special occasions, like 50-year wedding anniversaries. But we certainly don’t use it everyday, and we don’t treat it like everything else and pass it around. It’s to be looked at and admired, not actually touched and used. Little children especially are NEVER EVER allowed to touch something that has “pride of place!”

So this is in my mind when I hear the quaint and puzzling phrase, “pride of place.” To me, this means that the Church shouldn’t be using this music everyday, but just on very, very special occasions, and only certain people should use it, not the entire congregation. To me, music that has pride of place SHOULDN’T be passed around like common hymns. It should be reserved for special times only and handled with great care by qualified, mature people.

I think that there are probably other families out there who would have the same understanding of “price of place.” Something that has “pride of place” should not be in use everyday, or it no longer has “pride of place.”

Hmm. Kind of puts a different spin on it, doesn’t it, friends?! And it sounds like a good spin. It sounds like my family’s approach would result in much more reverence in the Mass than just throwing Gregorian chant, Palestrina, and a pipe organ out on the table every week for every Mass. If we did this, then that “special” music would eventually become mundane and ordinary. It would get chipped and cracked and smudged and no one would sit up in their seats and listen harder whenever it was played, because it would be the “everyday” music, not music with “pride of place” anymore.

Again, what is very much needed is for Rome to speak up and tell independent and free-thinking Americans in the U.S. exactly what the CHURCH means by the murky phrase, “pride of place.” I’m guessing that when this phrase was originally penned by some learned cardinal or committee, that it meant something specific, and that they understood the meaning. But with the change in language in the U.S., the meaning has become obscured, and now the phrase is a point of contention and confusion. It is creating a “music war” in the Catholic Church here in the U.S., especially as more and more converts like me come into the Church and would kind of like to hear some good music in the Mass.

But of course, the Church isn’t going to say a word. They apparently are content to allow the rank and file (that’s us, people!) to fight it out like cats and dogs, and to allow the American Catholic parishes to languish with a blend of innocuous and bland music. Considering how few Ameircans have any musical knowledge, it’s probably the easiest thing to do. No matter how hard chant enthusiasts tout chant, I still maintain, as an accompanists with many years of experience playing for various soloists and choirs, that most people in the U.S. would find chant a major challenge to learn, and the result of implementing chant in most parishes would be a den of howling cats.

Yes, I’m definitely feeling bitter about this. The conclusion that I’ve come to is that the best thing to do is just sit back and enjoy Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and hope for heaven, when we will finally all enjoy the music.
 
I agree that the Church needs to explain to those of us who live in the United States exactly what is meant by “pride of place.”
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Amen. For you and I, think of the upside if we went to chant and organ exclusively. We would start having Masses with no music. No time in preparation and out of Mass a lot quicker, if that is our goal. I do not mean to be flippant, but make no mistake that there would be many parishes, maybe even the majority, for which this would be the only option.
 
Amen. For you and I, think of the upside if we went to chant and organ exclusively. We would start having Masses with no music. No time in preparation and out of Mass a lot quicker, if that is our goal. I do not mean to be flippant, but make no mistake that there would be many parishes, maybe even the majority, for which this would be the only option.
I think your words are accurate.

I would add that many lukewarm, uncatechized Catholics would depart from the Church and head for the Protestant fellowships, many of which offer excellent music, both contemporary and traditional.

We are kidding ourselves if we underestimate the importance of music to a typical resident of the United States. Even for people who are fully cognizant of the True Presence of Jesus Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and who love Him dearly, it is hard to sit through a Mass with under-developed music. We really love our music here in the U.S.
 
I’m not aware of statistics, but I can say that my parish doesn’t pay enough! (I’m Music Director).

Besides my own salary, the parish has spent a total of around $2.75 on music since I’ve been there. There are several reasons for this:
  • I’m not purchasing any new Mass settings because they will be obsolete shortly. Therefore I’m waiting.
  • Any instrumental music is my own property. If I want new instrumental, I purchase it myself.
  • The church has a large store of music from the past that I can dig through.
  • There are so few people available for a choir, there’s not much point to working on anything fancy. It’s hard enough to get one singer, let alone a full SATB group.
One of my reading sources mentions that parishes pay a lot of money for copyrighted material that then goes out of style, so has to be constantly updated. I’m not sure how much money that is. Gregorian Chant is freely available.
 
I agree that the Church needs to explain to those of us who live in the United States exactly what is meant by “pride of place.”
I’m pretty sure I posted this before, but it was likely overlooked. In the original Latin text of the GIRM, it’s principem, a form of princeps, the meaning of which is given as: First, foremost, leading, chief, front; earliest, original; most necessary. All of those definitions tend to give me the impression of being the MAIN form. In other words, first place.

Now, the English translation somehow gets “Pride of Place” out of that. However, by looking at the original meaning, it should be pretty clear. I think what does need explaining is why the translators decided to make their English version so confusing.

Texts:
Principem locum obtineat, ceteris paribus, cantus gregorianus, utpote Liturgiæ romanæ proprius.
All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy.
 
One of my reading sources mentions that parishes pay a lot of money for copyrighted material that then goes out of style, so has to be constantly updated. I’m not sure how much money that is. Gregorian Chant is freely available.
I believe that to be true. I’m not a believer in following musical fads, however, so I can mostly avoid that problem.
 
So this is in my mind when I hear the quaint and puzzling phrase, “pride of place.” To me, this means that the Church shouldn’t be using this music everyday, but just on very, very special occasions, and only certain people should use it, not the entire congregation. To me, music that has pride of place SHOULDN’T be passed around like common hymns. It should be reserved for special times only and handled with great care by qualified, mature people.
The mass is the holy sacrifice of our lord, why wouldn’t that deserve pride of place singing each and every time we go to mass?

I really enjoyed reading “Sing Like a Catholic,” by Jeffrey Tucker. Despite the title, it isn’t a “how to” book. Instead it describes how the chants were traditionally used and how they support and reinforce what is going during the mass. In general the choir sings, the people do not, the entire parish does not need to learn chant. The people participate in the mass by being there.
 
Personally, I love the entire Mass chanted, which is the norm. That said, if a parish must use guitars (and yes, I’m a guitarist who used to play in Mass, now I just chant), drums, etc., I think they should at least use hymns that state or paraphrase the propers. When a random hymn is selected, though it might go with readings, it can’t compare with the antiphon the Church has selected to correspond to the readings and the prayers. Perhaps, then, OCP, GIA, WLP, et al. should get their contributing composers to use the official texts of the propers. That could be a start to eventually transitioning to chant or polyphony.
 
I’m pretty sure I posted this before, but it was likely overlooked. In the original Latin text of the GIRM, it’s principem, a form of princeps, the meaning of which is given as: First, foremost, leading, chief, front; earliest, original; most necessary. All of those definitions tend to give me the impression of being the MAIN form. In other words, first place.

Now, the English translation somehow gets “Pride of Place” out of that. However, by looking at the original meaning, it should be pretty clear. I think what does need explaining is why the translators decided to make their English version so confusing.

Texts:
In your message you quoted the Latin text from the GIRM and the English translation. I’m wondering if the word “proper” is taken out of context in the English. The Proper of the Mass consists of the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, and Communion. I don’t think this meaning comes through in the English. (I don’t have a lot of background in Latin, so maybe what I am asking isn’t the meaning in Latin anyway.)
 
This is another thing I always struggle with, the reverance of musical styles. I guess it has a lot to do with what you are used to. Today I made a later mass at another parish, the priest there was a latin man, very charismatic in nature, he had a likeable way and smile. While preparing to read the final reading the choir?, guitar players, cymbal clangers and flauitists started up the strians of sing hossanna to the lord, in an unfamiliar latin mambo type of rhythm, Father then started this clap, clapclap clap, in perfect rhythm to the fast paced music, he was also swaying, almost dancing while motioning the whole church to join in the clapping!. I got this feeling that this was irreverent and prayed to myself sorry God. Then I seen this young man I noticed on the way into mass, this church has multiple entrances and as I came early I entered through the one to the right and behind the altar, this young man, maybe 25, wheelchair bound with his head listing to the side and shaking, his hands looked atrophied, it struck me how unfair for me to complain so much about my problems looking at him. This young man came alive during this singing and started clapping his damaged hands to Fathers rhythmic clap and was moving back and forth from the waste up with a beautiful happy smile on his face. I started to cry feeling so judgemental of this priest and the musicians, and thought to myself surely the Holy Spirit was at work in this young man, his parents were smiling at him joyfully. In the case of this young man I thought this had reached him, then I noticed that most of the other parisioners were clapping and smiling too, I was probably the only person in the entire church crying and feeling guilty. My point, I am not sure, but I will not be so quick from here on to judge the Celebration of the Mass by my tastes. I was thinking this was a Celebration, and we Celebrate the Holy Mass and who am I too judge how people are reached or how they choose to celebrate.

ed
 
I think your words are accurate.

I would add that many lukewarm, uncatechized Catholics would depart from the Church and head for the Protestant fellowships, many of which offer excellent music, both contemporary and traditional.
Think of all the lukewarm, Catholics you left the Church when the Divine liturgy was opened up to the use of all secular instruments.
 
So, a priest has come to me with an enormous responsibility that I am thinking and praying very hard about…he wants me to take over the music program at the parish and improve it. I can’t lie, my church is in desperate need to a music makeover, but I want to do what is right by the congregation and glory for God alone…I want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

This forum stretches across some of the most diverse catholics out here…I need to hear from EVERYONE

What would YOU like from your music program? What kind of music helps you worship and pray?

Please keep this positive: don’t bash ANYONE for their feedback, and try to speak positively. Example: “I like this kind…” or “I feel this is what I worship best to…” rather than “Organ music is irreverent” or something like that. I don’t want a debate, I just want feedback! thanks guys, I appreciate this!!
 
Just as a tip, every congregation is different, and, to be honest, I don’t think that the readership of the CAF Liturgy board is even remotely comparable to an average cross-section of the PIPs at an average parish.

Anyway, congratulations on your new role! It’s definitely a big one, and I hope you are being paid commensurately. If you wanted to make me happy, you would have a lot of chant, along with some traditional organ-supported hymns. If you want to make your parish happy, you would probably keep on doing whatever is currently being done (most people hate change), with alterations being brought in gradually.

You should also put a note in the bulletin asking for people’s (name removed by moderator)ut at a meeting after Mass, or via email, or whatever. This is an old trick so that when you subsequently make changes and get complaints you can say “But I specifically asked for (name removed by moderator)ut and guidance when these decisions were being made; why did you keep quiet?”, and that your changes were based on the helpful suggestions and desires that other people expressed. Er, and you may also learn something valuable about what your fellow parishioners want. 🙂

P.S.: If you want to know what despise the most in Church music, it is Masses that look like their music was chosen by having a monkey throw darts: a rousing Gather Us In opener, a chant Kyrie in Greek, Faith of Our Fathers for the Offertory, some jazzy swingin’ Mass settings from OCP, Pan de Vida followed by a hot Matt Maher number during Communion, and Immaculate Mary for the recessional. That’s the absolute worst. If the first Sunday of the month is chant and motets, and the third is contemporary and upbeat or whatever, great. I appreciate historic art, and I appreciate modern art. I appreciate Italian food, and I appreciate Mexican food. I appreciate Gregorian chant, and I appreciate Soundgarden. Trying to blend two things that do not belong together is jarring, destabilizing, and absurd.
 
So, a priest has come to me with an enormous responsibility that I am thinking and praying very hard about…he wants me to take over the music program at the parish and improve it. I can’t lie, my church is in desperate need to a music makeover, but I want to do what is right by the congregation and glory for God alone…I want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

This forum stretches across some of the most diverse catholics out here…I need to hear from EVERYONE

What would YOU like from your music program? What kind of music helps you worship and pray?

Please keep this positive: don’t bash ANYONE for their feedback, and try to speak positively. Example: “I like this kind…” or “I feel this is what I worship best to…” rather than “Organ music is irreverent” or something like that. I don’t want a debate, I just want feedback! thanks guys, I appreciate this!!
When you say “music program” do you mean liturgical music at mass? If that’s the case, then I would to with what makes the congregation SING. From my understanding and own very strong belief, it’s all about what brings the congregation to song Gods praise.

At my church, we play a full band- guitars, bass, piano, drums, trumpets, flutes, violins, cello and choir of course. We integrate contemporary Christian sounding music from spirit and song (from OCP), choose Christ (OCP), and breaking bread.

If you hear th call from God to take up this ministry, ease in new music and be super attentive to what the congregation feels comfortable singing.

The music that helps m pray is music that fits the readings for that Sunday and contemporary catholic songs by artists like matt maher and Sara hart.

Good luck and keep me’ posted what you decide to do.
 
Every congregation is different. I believe that whatever style of music that moves the hearts of that particular congregation to help them praise God the most should be used. This can become difficult when the director of a choir leans toward singing/playing one kind of music. But, regardless of it’s style, the music MUST align with liturgical guidelines.
 
Just as a tip, every congregation is different, and, to be honest, I don’t think that the readership of the CAF Liturgy board is even remotely comparable to an average cross-section of the PIPs at an average parish.

Anyway, congratulations on your new role! It’s definitely a big one, and I hope you are being paid commensurately. If you wanted to make me happy, you would have a lot of chant, along with some traditional organ-supported hymns. If you want to make your parish happy, you would probably keep on doing whatever is currently being done (most people hate change), with alterations being brought in gradually.

You should also put a note in the bulletin asking for people’s (name removed by moderator)ut at a meeting after Mass, or via email, or whatever. This is an old trick so that when you subsequently make changes and get complaints you can say “But I specifically asked for (name removed by moderator)ut and guidance when these decisions were being made; why did you keep quiet?”, and that your changes were based on the helpful suggestions and desires that other people expressed. Er, and you may also learn something valuable about what your fellow parishioners want. 🙂

P.S.: If you want to know what despise the most in Church music, it is Masses that look like their music was chosen by having a monkey throw darts: a rousing Gather Us In opener, a chant Kyrie in Greek, Faith of Our Fathers for the Offertory, some jazzy swingin’ Mass settings from OCP, Pan de Vida followed by a hot Matt Maher number during Communion, and Immaculate Mary for the recessional. That’s the absolute worst. If the first Sunday of the month is chant and motets, and the third is contemporary and upbeat or whatever, great. I appreciate historic art, and I appreciate modern art. I appreciate Italian food, and I appreciate Mexican food. I appreciate Gregorian chant, and I appreciate Soundgarden. Trying to blend two things that do not belong together is jarring, destabilizing, and absurd.
:amen:

Mark, Awesome response!!
Love your image of a monkey throwing darts-
I think that monkey works for my Diocese!! 😛
 
Whatever you choose, I would suggest that you do all you can to make sure that it is done excellently.

I realize that there are different levels of talent and ability. I’m not saying that you should boot all the “average” and “barely-competent” singers and instrumentalists. I don’t agree with that approach at all.

But make sure that those who do lead the worship (cantoring, choir, instruments, conducting, sound system, etc.) do so with excellence. That means preparation and rehearsal for most people (there are some who can “wing it” and do well, especially pianists!). But most musicians need to spend some time learning the pieces (especially if they are new to the musicians) and practicing, whether the music is ancient chant or modern rock. Mass music shouldn’t be something that is thrown together five minutes before the Mass.

Congratulations on your new responsibility and I hope that many souls come into the Church and get grounded in the faith because of your work!
 
I’d love to see more chant! Gregorian chant is supposed to have the pride of place in Catholic liturgies. It is reverent, glorious, and beautiful. Music at Mass is for God, not our own personal tastes. Sing the Mass, rather than sing at Mass.
 
According to my interpretation of the church documents, the normative music the wants is organ and chant. I would suggest slowly (but not too slowly) easing the congregation into this style of music at Mass if they aren’t already used to it.

As “I Thirst” said, sing the Mass, not sing at Mass.

Singing the propers is also easier than ever with the Simple Propers Project. OP, If you can’t read chant notation yet, PM me, and believe me, if you can read “modern notation”, you can read chant notation, especially simple settings like at the link above.

If you want help learning to read simple chants, PM me, and I’m sure I can help you. It’s as easy as reading modern notation.

GIRM:


41.All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.

De Musica Sacra:

Paragraph 16:
16. Gregorian chant is the music characteristic of the Roman Church. Therefore, its use is not only permitted, but encouraged at all liturgical ceremonies above all other styles of music, …"

Paragraph 61:
“The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ. …”

Paragraph 68:
"However, the following rules derived from the principles stated above (no.60) are to strictly observed: the instruments are truly suitable for sacred use; … they are to be played with such seriousness, and religious devotion that every suggestion of raucous secular music is avoided, and the devotion of the faithful is fostered. The director, organist, and other instrumentalists should be well trained in instrumental techniques, and the laws of sacred music…”

Paragraph 104
“… chant forms an integral part of the liturgy…”

I could find more of these types of quotes, but it would be redundant. They are in many documents, but again, it would be beside the point to post all of them. I would also note that the GIRM makes constant references to “the chant” (such as the introit during the procession)
 
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