MERGED: Music in the Mass/Not typical thread about Music

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I’d select the first option if I could (anyone know what this trial membership is about?!) considering what’s written in GIRM and other documents. In my experience, chant and traditional hymns accompanied by the organ are second to none in providing a proper atmosphere of reverence in the Church. Watching the difference in how people act depending on what the music is is interesting to say the least.

As far as congregations singing, that’s really something I don’t have to worry about. If I were to play only pieces that they would sing, I think I’d be limited to two hymns, with the exception of the Christmas season. The congregation just will not sing regardless of what is played - chant, hymns, contemporary songs. I’m not the only music director who’s encountered this either.
 
The sad fact is, that in the US there are no good traditional hymns for each occasion. A hymn is good only if it brings you back the memories of your childhood. The newly created and ever changing hymns deny this standard.

The Gregorian (even with changing tones) always brings back the same sentiment, the past before generations.
 
The sad fact is, that in the US there are no good traditional hymns for each occasion. A hymn is good only if it brings you back the memories of your childhood. The newly created and ever changing hymns deny this standard.

The Gregorian (even with changing tones) always brings back the same sentiment, the past before generations.
Only if you grew up with it in a “church” setting, which many of us did not.

Any musician has to be careful not to assume that all others share the same memories and mindset as they carry. Many musicians assume that EVERYONE will feel the same way when they hear a piece of music, and then they are surprised when the people react differently.
 
The sad fact is, that in the US there are no good traditional hymns for each occasion. A hymn is good only if it brings you back the memories of your childhood. The newly created and ever changing hymns deny this standard.

The Gregorian (even with changing tones) always brings back the same sentiment, the past before generations.
There are plenty of traditional American hymns that bring back memories of childhood and that are appropriate for each occasion. Unfortunately, they are “Protestant” hymns and therefore odorous to many Catholics.

And also unfortunately, U.S, Catholic traditional hymnody seems to be heavily borrowed from medieval Europe, which many of us do not identify with.

In the OPs poll, I marked that she should go with a mixture of ancient and contemporary music, and I stand by that. Many Americans living in the U.S. will not easily accept ancient music exclusively in the Mass. Easing people into “new” stuff (even if the new stuff is actually ancient) is a wiser course of action.
 
Why do we need to “identify with” sacred music? It doesn’t exist to set the mood or serve as entertainment. The rest of the non-Catholic, movie-watching world hears chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns and thinks “Catholic.” Why can’t we re-learn what we so carelessly threw out? The Church has made clear through above-mentioned documents and others as to what kind of music should be sung at Mass. Why is this even a question? If people prefer the usual OCP elevator music, they need to be gradually educated beyond it. Most school children would prefer to stay in the comfort of their own grade level, but they’ll never learn anything except laziness if they don’t move on to higher things.
 
What would YOU like from your music program? What kind of music helps you worship and pray?

!
I think the question is what music is Catholic and what music was used in liturgical tradition. Not what music we like. Novelty is not part of our liturgical tradition. The Liturgical tradition before Vatican II produced thousands and thousand of Saints.
 
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am carefuly reading and considering everything that is said.

Obviously I want to do what is right by my parish, and I am committed to excellence if I do take on this role. I am wanting to get an idea of how people feel about music in the church and bring these ideas with me when I talk to the priest next week so he can help me temper everything to a perfect fir with my parish. Please, keep it coming guys!
 
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am carefuly reading and considering everything that is said.

Obviously I want to do what is right by my parish, and I am committed to excellence if I do take on this role. I am wanting to get an idea of how people feel about music in the church and bring these ideas with me when I talk to the priest next week so he can help me temper everything to a perfect fir with my parish. Please, keep it coming guys!
I’m going to echo Cavaille-Coll. It shouldn’t really matter what people can “identify with”, but what the church really wants, or the type of music the church wants. **No other part of the church is a democracy, and music shouldn’t be either **(besides the election of a pope, but that’s different).

that being said, I’m not saying you need to start chanting from the graduale romanum, and sing a 10 minute polyphony piece during communion the week after that. You should probably try and ease people in. Have classes and catechesis. Teach people why you are doing what they are doing. Start with the simple chants such as the Kyrie ((“http://www.adoremus.org/hymns/28 Kyrie.mp3”)), Sanctus ((“http://www.adoremus.org/hymns/Sanctus.mp3”)), and Agnus Dei ((“http://www.adoremus.org/hymns/32 Agnus Dei.mp3”)) in latin from Jubilate Deo. Maybe even the Gloria ((“http://www.adoremus.org/hymns/29 Gloria.mp3”)) if you’re really ambitious! Anyone can learn these, it’s whether they want to learn them. Maybe even use some chants from the simple propers project before you sing the hymns!
 
The first thing I would do is purge the repertoire of any reference to God as mother…seriously 😦

Second, I say skip the drums, unless perhaps a djembe or other small hand-drums. The full drum kit is just too loud.
 
And remember, its not a “program”. The music is to be fitting for the Mass of the day. Even the OF can have gregorian chant as well as sacred polyphony. I’m assuming that this will be an OF Mass.
 
And remember, its not a “program”. The music is to be fitting for the Mass of the day. Even the OF can have gregorian chant as well as sacred polyphony. I’m assuming that this will be an OF Mass.
See, I just have a lot to learn - and that’s why I’m turning to you guys!

I don’t know what OF mass means. Explain? Thanks.
 
See, I just have a lot to learn - and that’s why I’m turning to you guys!

I don’t know what OF mass means. Explain? Thanks.
OF = Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite = post-Vatican II form of Mass, which can be celebrated in the vernacular.

EF = Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite = Traditional Latin Mass, the pre-Vatican II form which can only be celebrated in Latin.
 
Why do we need to “identify with” sacred music? It doesn’t exist to set the mood or serve as entertainment. The rest of the non-Catholic, movie-watching world hears chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns and thinks “Catholic.” Why can’t we re-learn what we so carelessly threw out? The Church has made clear through above-mentioned documents and others as to what kind of music should be sung at Mass. Why is this even a question? If people prefer the usual OCP elevator music, they need to be gradually educated beyond it. Most school children would prefer to stay in the comfort of their own grade level, but they’ll never learn anything except laziness if they don’t move on to higher things.
Perfectly stated!! 👍

~Liza
 
Why do we need to “identify with” sacred music? It doesn’t exist to set the mood or serve as entertainment. **The rest of the non-Catholic, movie-watching world hears chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns and thinks “Catholic.” **Why can’t we re-learn what we so carelessly threw out? The Church has made clear through above-mentioned documents and others as to what kind of music should be sung at Mass. Why is this even a question? If people prefer the usual OCP elevator music, they need to be gradually educated beyond it. Most school children would prefer to stay in the comfort of their own grade level, but they’ll never learn anything except laziness if they don’t move on to higher things.
(Boldface mine, above)–I disagree with the generalization that the rest of the non-Catholic, movie-watching world hears chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns and thinks “Catholic.”

Chant–regretfully, much of the “movie-watching” world hears chant and thinks “horror movie” or “Black Mass.” Or they think, “Wasn’t there a group of monks back in the 1990s who recorded a CD of Gregorian chant, became wildly popular with the public, and made a fortune?” In other words, chant, like many other forms of music, has become secularized here in the U.S. We are just as likely to hear chant at New Age retreats as we are in a Catholic church.

Polyphony–many many people think “concert” or “recital” when they hear this style of music. I do. I can’t listen to it without reverting to “musician mindset,” in which I analyze the voices of the singers, their pitch, their tone, their intonation, etc. In the U.S., polyphony is most often heard in a concert setting, not in a church setting. I’m talking about the PRESENT here, not the past. I agree that it used to be heard in churches, and not just Catholic churches–50 years ago perhaps. But not now. Not in recent memory.

Finally traditional hymns–I think the vast majority of people in the U.S. think “Protestant,” not “Catholic” when they hear hymns. Even though many Protestant churches have embraced contemporary Christian music in their worship services, many Protestant churches still hold at least one “traditional” worship service on Sundays, and this service is filled with traditional hymns, including many of the older hymns that Catholics sing.

The OP has to be very careful not to make any generalizations about music in the Mass, and not base her decisions on “popular opinion.” She needs objective, documented information.

It might be good for her to contact a Catholic university, specifically the music department, and see if she can get their professors to give her some resources.

Another possibility for the OP is to contact the largest Lutheran church in her area. In our city, the music ministers, who are also the pipe organists, of the Lutheran churches are very knowledgeable about liturgical music, including Catholic liturgical music. They could probably give her a lot of assistance in planning and implementing music in the Mass at her parish. They might also know how to maintain and repair pipe organs.
 
So, a priest has come to me with an enormous responsibility that I am thinking and praying very hard about…he wants me to take over the music program at the parish and improve it. I can’t lie, my church is in desperate need to a music makeover, but I want to do what is right by the congregation and glory for God alone…I want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

This forum stretches across some of the most diverse catholics out here…I need to hear from EVERYONE

What would YOU like from your music program? What kind of music helps you worship and pray?

Please keep this positive: don’t bash ANYONE for their feedback, and try to speak positively. Example: “I like this kind…” or “I feel this is what I worship best to…” rather than “Organ music is irreverent” or something like that. I don’t want a debate, I just want feedback! thanks guys, I appreciate this!!
See, I prefer Gregorian Chant, and no hymns if it can be done properly (much easier in the EF), if not I prefer parts of teh Mass that can be chanted, to be chanted, and hymns during the procession and the offertory (maybe one or two hymns during Communion, but they must be appropriate (I love Amazing Grace at this point tbh).

However I’m not your typical Catholic, I prefer the EF, and absolutely abhor pentecostal style services, So you should stand at the back of your Church, with a simple questionaire, pass it to all parishners, and collect it the following weekend, to see there views, as the posters on CAF are not going to be your regular Catholics 😉

EDIT: If there is High Church Anglicanism nearby, speak to there music director, High Church Anglicanism generally have more Organists then we do, plus some beautiful liturgical hymns (you’ld be surprised that most likely half your favourite hymns are Anglican).
 
(Boldface mine, above)–I disagree with the generalization that the rest of the non-Catholic, movie-watching world hears chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns and thinks “Catholic.”

Chant–regretfully, much of the “movie-watching” world hears chant and thinks “horror movie” or “Black Mass.” Or they think, “Wasn’t there a group of monks back in the 1990s who recorded a CD of Gregorian chant, became wildly popular with the public, and made a fortune?” In other words, chant, like many other forms of music, has become secularized here in the U.S. We are just as likely to hear chant at New Age retreats as we are in a Catholic church.

Polyphony–many many people think “concert” or “recital” when they hear this style of music. I do. I can’t listen to it without reverting to “musician mindset,” in which I analyze the voices of the singers, their pitch, their tone, their intonation, etc. In the U.S., polyphony is most often heard in a concert setting, not in a church setting. I’m talking about the PRESENT here, not the past. I agree that it used to be heard in churches, and not just Catholic churches–50 years ago perhaps. But not now. Not in recent memory.

Finally traditional hymns–I think the vast majority of people in the U.S. think “Protestant,” not “Catholic” when they hear hymns. Even though many Protestant churches have embraced contemporary Christian music in their worship services, many Protestant churches still hold at least one “traditional” worship service on Sundays, and this service is filled with traditional hymns, including many of the older hymns that Catholics sing.

The OP has to be very careful not to make any generalizations about music in the Mass, and not base her decisions on “popular opinion.” She needs objective, documented information.

It might be good for her to contact a Catholic university, specifically the music department, and see if she can get their professors to give her some resources.

Another possibility for the OP is to contact the largest Lutheran church in her area. In our city, the music ministers, who are also the pipe organists, of the Lutheran churches are very knowledgeable about liturgical music, including Catholic liturgical music. They could probably give her a lot of assistance in planning and implementing music in the Mass at her parish. They might also know how to maintain and repair pipe organs.
While I doubt that either of us will convince the other of our viewpoint, I’d like to throw out these things:

With the chant, no matter who sings it, it is still “our music”.

I agree with you about the Hymns. That’s because until the 70s, hymns had practically no place in the Mass, and even now, they are still not part of the Mass, but simply played and sung during Mass, opposed to the propers which are singing the Mass, which were sung for so long, and are still somewhat preferred.
 
While I doubt that either of us will convince the other of our viewpoint, I’d like to throw out these things:

With the chant, no matter who sings it, it is still “our music”.

I agree with you about the Hymns. That’s because until the 70s, hymns had practically no place in the Mass, and even now, they are still not part of the Mass, but simply played and sung during Mass, opposed to the propers which are singing the Mass, which were sung for so long, and are still somewhat preferred.
I appreciate the civil tone of your posts.

You say that the propers are still “somewhat preferred.” My question–somewhat preferred by whom? Are you referring to the Church documents? Or are you saying that the parishioners prefer them? Or something or someone else?

Thanks.
 
W
I agree with you about the Hymns. That’s because until the 70s, hymns had practically no place in the Mass, and even now, they are still not part of the Mass, but simply played and sung during Mass, opposed to the propers which are singing the Mass, which were sung for so long, and are still somewhat preferred.
I grew up in the 50s and 60s and hymns were very much part of the Mass. My mother said in the 30s and 40s there were standard hymns that were sung at Mass, so I don’t know where you are getting this that hymns were not part of the Mass. Play an old hymn at mass and see how all the older people sing them. Granted most of the hymns sung at Mass had nothing to do with the readings or liturgical theme of the Mass, except maybe during Christmas, Lent and Easter. Many were Marian hymns or simply praise hymns.
 
I grew up in the 50s and 60s and hymns were very much part of the Mass. My mother said in the 30s and 40s there were standard hymns that were sung at Mass, so I don’t know where you are getting this that hymns were not part of the Mass. Play an old hymn at mass and see how all the older people sing them. Granted most of the hymns sung at Mass had nothing to do with the readings or liturgical theme of the Mass, except maybe during Christmas, Lent and Easter. Many were Marian hymns or simply praise hymns.
Yes, singing vernacular hymns at Mass is an immemorial tradition in many places (though not all), which the Church readily permitted to continue for pastoral reasons. As Pius XII stated in Musicae Sacrae (1955), “Where, according to old or immemorial custom, some popular hymns are sung in the language of the people after the sacred words of the liturgy have been sung in Latin during the solemn Eucharistic sacrifice, local Ordinaries can allow this to be done ‘if, in the light of the circumstances of the locality and the people, they believe that (custom) cannot prudently be removed.’”
 
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