MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

[Cat]

**I’m not picking on any particular song, although there are a few that bother me. Some do contain heretical language…
Personally I don’t like singing all the ol’ protestant songs when we have so many beautiful catholic ones to choose from. But…I sing them anyway.

What in your opinion would be music inappropriate for the mass? Anything? and…on what basis would you object to something?**

**Music that doesn’t support the liturgy is inappropriate. **

I agree that the traditional Catholic hymns are beautiful, and it’s good when church music ministers seek these hymns in their missallettes and hymnals and bring them back to the Mass.

Keep in mind that many of the songs you consider “Catholic” are sung all the time in Protestant churches that still do traditional music. E.g., Holy God, We Praise Thy Name was sung regularly in every Protestant church that I was ever involved with. So we have to be careful about labelling songs “Protestant.”

**I think it would be really helpful if someone (Sarabande? pnewton? other musicians on CAF? CAF apologists who need a little extra cash?) would write a book that contains an assortment of Catholic hymns and tells the “story” of those hymns. **

There are many such books about hymns out in the Protestant world; I have several of those books. They’re really delightful and interesting.

Many of the hymns in those Protestant-written books are also done in Catholic parishes. But there are hymns done in Mass that are never done in most Protestant churches, and I’m not talking about Gregorian chant (which IS sometimes done in Protestant churches, even Evangelical Protestant churches!–it’s kind of a “fad” now). THESE distinctively “Catholic” hymns are the hymns that should go into that book.

It’s really interesting and inspiring to read the stories of how the hymns came to be written and used in church.

I sincerely hope that someone takes on this project and writes this book, and more importantly, that a Catholic publishing company will publish and promote it.

(If I could get a contract with an advance from a Catholic publishing company, I WOULD write that book! I’m a musician and I’ve accompanied the hymns in church since I was a little girl! So I’m qualified!).

I think such a book would be helpful for many Catholics, and get them interested in their own musical heritage in a positive way, without cutting down other Christian music.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not a ‘real musician’ but I agree with you. In fact, I suspect that in the days when Gregorian chants were ‘contemporary’ music, there must have been people upset to hear the monks ‘rocking’ at Mass! If only we had a time machine, we’d see these arguments for what they really are…

Historically-speaking, chant of various kinds have always been used for sacred use even before Christianity. I’ve never read about anyone ever having a problem with chant in liturgy (with the exception of the adults I knew as a kid who told me that no one did it anymore because it was old and no longer appropriate… which I later found out was not true- the inappropriate part. “Old” part was correct. ) BUT for all other forms of music… yes, as I mentioned in my previous posts, there has always been debates about it through the centuries and the Church has always made some sort of crackdown. I mean, it took a few centuries for polyphony to officially be “ok” for use at mass once it was “rendered apt” by the composers writing the music. Now, it’s held in high esteem. “Orchestral masses” had always had their detractors even by their contemporaries because using orchestral instruments and the music, itself, were considered too secular. ie. While the bishop in Vienna loved Mozart’s masses and had them used constantly, the Prince-Archbishop of Salzburg thought they were inappropriate for liturgy. (Part of it seemed to be a personal issue as he and Mozart had very little regard for each other, because after all of that he allowed Mozart to have his Great Mass in C “debuted” at mass at the Cathedral. Both were at fault for their falling out, in my opinion.) Then there regional debates of what was appropriate. Italian liturgical music in the 18th century was considered too frivolous by those from German-speaking countries. German-speaking countries were looked down upon for using vernacular masses in the early 19th century and not enough chant. I could go on, but I think we get the picture.

See, we’re no different from our ancestors. You can read contemporary accounts of what people thought of the new innovations in liturgical music through the centuries and you can see that the proponents and detractors pretty much sound like all of us today. And the other thing I see pretty consistently is that the Church usually allow these debates to happen for quite a while and then there is a “crack-down”, telling composers and musicians to fix it or drop it. There was a lot of stuff used at mass in the past which we don’t hear today because it was “dropped” either because it was deemed inappropriate or was just plain bad musically-speaking. The same will happen (and is happening) today. I’ve seen more discernment with certain pieces of music that was used a lot when I was kid, but is either dropped because they really were poorly-written music or they really weren’t appropriate. The Church is starting to speak more about what is appropriate, so I believe we are at the point where the Church has allowed musicians and composers to explore. They have observed/are observing it all and will make their decisions on what should be done. I think that is wise on her part.

 

[floresco]

I am currently taking a History of Western Music to 1600 course, which ends up being a lot of stuff about Church music. Your post does a great job of summarizing what I have been learning about. There is a constant pattern of “music for its own sake” taking over “music for God” and having to be pushed back.

 

[seekerz]

Historically-speaking, chant of various kinds have always been used for sacred use even before Christianity. I’ve never read about anyone ever having a problem with chant in liturgy (with the exception of the adults I knew as a kid who told me that no one did it anymore because it was old and no longer appropriate… which I later found out was not true- the inappropriate part. “Old” part was correct. ) BUT for all other forms of music… yes, as I mentioned in my previous posts, there has always been debates about it through the centuries and the Church has always made some sort of crackdown. I mean, it took a few centuries for polyphony to officially be “ok” for use at mass once it was “rendered apt” by the composers writing the music. Now, it’s held in high esteem. “Orchestral masses” had always had their detractors even by their contemporaries because using orchestral instruments and the music, itself, were considered too secular. ie. While the bishop in Vienna loved Mozart’s masses and had them used constantly, the Prince-Archbishop of Salzburg thought they were inappropriate for liturgy. (Part of it seemed to be a personal issue as he and Mozart had very little regard for each other, because after all of that he allowed Mozart to have his Great Mass in C “debuted” at mass at the Cathedral. Both were at fault for their falling out, in my opinion.) Then there regional debates of what was appropriate. Italian liturgical music in the 18th century was considered too frivolous by those from German-speaking countries. German-speaking countries were looked down upon for using vernacular masses in the early 19th century and not enough chant. I could go on, but I think we get the picture.

See, we’re no different from our ancestors. You can read contemporary accounts of what people thought of the new innovations in liturgical music through the centuries and you can see that the proponents and detractors pretty much sound like all of us today. And the other thing I see pretty consistently is that the Church usually allow these debates to happen for quite a while and then there is a “crack-down”, telling composers and musicians to fix it or drop it. There was a lot of stuff used at mass in the past which we don’t hear today because it was “dropped” either because it was deemed inappropriate or was just plain bad musically-speaking. The same will happen (and is happening) today. I’ve seen more discernment with certain pieces of music that was used a lot when I was kid, but is either dropped because they really were poorly-written music or they really weren’t appropriate. The Church is starting to speak more about what is appropriate, so I believe we are at the point where the Church has allowed musicians and composers to explore. They have observed/are observing it all and will make their decisions on what should be done. I think that is wise on her part.

Great post, thanks.

 

[Sarabande]

I am currently taking a History of Western Music to 1600 course, which ends up being a lot of stuff about Church music. Your post does a great job of summarizing what I have been learning about. There is a constant pattern of “music for its own sake” taking over “music for God” and having to be pushed back.

I’m glad my memory hasn’t completely failed me. Yeah, music history has a lot on Church music. I’ve always been intrigued and amazed at how the Church heavily influenced the arts of all kinds in the past. We would not have had such glorious works in music, architecture, art, literature etc. without the Church. It would be great to see a resurgence of that influence. One thing I notice with many good music writers or composers of sacred music (past and present) is that they will often study and have training in Renaissance polyphony and a good knowledge of Church music history and tradition either through the compositions and/or academic reading. They are influenced and imbued by the Church’s musical heritage and it can and it does come out in many of their sacred compositions. It’s not always successful, because they are still influenced by what’s around them and are innovating/experimenting, which isn’t wrong, per say. Otherwise, we would not have such an incredible library of sacred music today. Even in “Musicam Sacrum”, this type of thing is encouraged.

1. Musicians will enter on this new work with the desire to continue that tradition which has furnished the Church, in her divine worship, with a truly abundant heritage. Let them examine the works of the past, their types and characteristics, but let them also pay careful attention to the new laws and requirements of the liturgy, so that “new forms may in some way grow organically from forms that already exist,”[41] and the new work will form a new part in the musical heritage of the Church, not unworthy of its past.

**60. The new melodies for the vernacular texts certainly need to undergo a period of experimentation in order that they may attain a sufficient maturity and perfection. **However, anything done in churches, even if only for experimental purposes, which is unbecoming to the holiness of the place, the dignity of the liturgy and the devotion of the faithful, must be avoided.

The same is expected for those who work in parishes of a certain culture with different musical traditions. It emphasizes “very specialized preparation by the experts” when dealing with the music ministry. I can’t make an opinion on how successful people have been since the 1967 document with getting experts in to help with this because of my limited experience with ethnic/cultural parishes.

1. Adapting sacred music for those regions which possess a musical tradition of their own, especially mission areas,[42] will require a very specialized preparation by the experts. It will be a question in fact of how to harmonize the sense of the sacred with the spirit, traditions and characteristic expressions proper to each of these peoples. Those who work in this field should have a sufficient knowledge both of the liturgy and musical tradition of the Church, and of the language, popular songs and other characteristic expressions of the people for whose benefit they are working.

It’s interesting to me how the Church often takes its time to observe in order to see where all of it was going before the “push back”. That’s something those of us alive, now, have to take into consideration and to be patient no matter where we sit on the spectrum of the appropriateness of sacred music.

 

[Jimmygill88]

I really pleased that no one who abhors the drums at Mass lives in Africa

 

[seekerz]

I really pleased that no one who abhors the drums at Mass lives in Africa

You got that right.

 

[floresco]

I’m glad my memory hasn’t completely failed me. Yeah, music history has a lot on Church music. I’ve always been intrigued and amazed at how the Church heavily influenced the arts of all kinds in the past. We would not have had such glorious works in music, architecture, art, literature etc. without the Church. It would be great to see a resurgence of that influence.

Taking this course has helped me to understand how enormous the influence of the Church has been on our culture. Our society has been so negative about us that it is pleasant to think of all our contributions, and not just in music and the arts. Things like schools, universities, hospitals, and science come from the Church.

 

[pnewton]

1. instruments mainly used for dance music and secular popular forms. Like non classical guitar, drums, and horns.
2. lyrics that do not reflect true catholic teaching (heretical) or are theologically ‘lite’ (God is great).

I think the second is far more likely than the first, but the heresy needs to be* absolute*, not implied or omitted.

The first reason runs afoul of the word “like”, as that is not for us to judge. Therefore abuse is really not an applicable term. If organs become more common at ballgames than Church, or they suddenly out? Of course not.

 

[pnewton]

I really pleased that no one who abhors the drums at Mass lives in Africa

I tell you what I do not like, but I would never call it abuse. Some people loved it. The Matachines. This is a true case of American cultural dance and drums in liturgy. We only had it once when Sunday in Lent fell on the 12th of December.

I can still respect the cultural significance even if it was way too loud and boisterous for me. I only point this out as an exceptional case, not to establish any proof or rule.

 

[triumphguy]

It is not hard to find.

Tra le Sollecitudini, 1903, Pope St. Pius X.

Psalm 150

Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with timbrel and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!

 

[Armor_of_Light]

**Music that doesn’t support the liturgy is inappropriate. **

I agree that the traditional Catholic hymns are beautiful, and it’s good when church music ministers seek these hymns in their missallettes and hymnals and bring them back to the Mass.

Keep in mind that many of the songs you consider “Catholic” are sung all the time in Protestant churches that still do traditional music. E.g., Holy God, We Praise Thy Name was sung regularly in every Protestant church that I was ever involved with. So we have to be careful about labelling songs “Protestant.”

**I think it would be really helpful if someone (Sarabande? pnewton? other musicians on CAF? CAF apologists who need a little extra cash?) would write a book that contains an assortment of Catholic hymns and tells the “story” of those hymns. **

There are many such books about hymns out in the Protestant world; I have several of those books. They’re really delightful and interesting.

Many of the hymns in those Protestant-written books are also done in Catholic parishes. But there are hymns done in Mass that are never done in most Protestant churches, and I’m not talking about Gregorian chant (which IS sometimes done in Protestant churches, even Evangelical Protestant churches!–it’s kind of a “fad” now). THESE distinctively “Catholic” hymns are the hymns that should go into that book.

It’s really interesting and inspiring to read the stories of how the hymns came to be written and used in church.

I sincerely hope that someone takes on this project and writes this book, and more importantly, that a Catholic publishing company will publish and promote it.

(If I could get a contract with an advance from a Catholic publishing company, I WOULD write that book! I’m a musician and I’ve accompanied the hymns in church since I was a little girl! So I’m qualified!).

I think such a book would be helpful for many Catholics, and get them interested in their own musical heritage in a positive way, without cutting down other Christian music.

That is a fantastic idea! I’m all for it…

I’m a ‘real’ musician, even so guilty as to have played a few times at the teen Mass

I know an awful lot of songs and music can be shared between prots and catholics. I just hope I never have to sing ‘Go tell it on the mountain’ ever again!

And yes (to someone else)…of course the regional sounds of drums and such are beautiful in the cultures that use them. I love that part of the universal church! I don’t mean to imply that the whole world conform to the Solemn High Mass standards exclusively.

 

[pnewton]

I know an awful lot of songs and music can be shared between prots and catholics. I just hope I never have to sing ‘Go tell it on the mountain’ ever again!

I can’t. I grew up Baptist. But I will tell you what. I have a book of 250 stories. I will go through it in a couple of weeks and pick out those with Catholic roots, either in words, inspiration or entirety. I noted already “Fairest Lord Jesus” was a translation from a Jesuit hymn.

 

[Cimachol]

“I am the bread of life” is a beautiful song quoting almost word for word, the passage in the Gospel where Jesus says those words. The “I” does not refer to us, but to Jesus.

I wasn’t referring to “I Am the Bread of Life,” but a song called “Bread of Life” that includes the lyric:

I myself am the bread of life
You and I, the bread of life,
Taken and blessed, broken and shared by Christ
So the world might live.

 

[agapewolf]

I wasn’t referring to “I Am the Bread of Life,” but a song called “Bread of Life” that includes the lyric:

I myself am the bread of life
You and I, the bread of life,
Taken and blessed, broken and shared by Christ
So the world might live.

Clarified a few issues in post #79

 

[BigJag]

Quick history:
Born 1950. Raised a Catholic (Polish/Check/Hungarian Masses.) Left Church at 18.Came back at 35, Whew! I look forward to Mass every week. 9:00AM Mass at Blessed Sacrament.

I am a veteran of 25 plus years of what I refer to as the (hunky-dunky) or hootenanny Mass. If that sounds like a criticism, it is. I would close my eyes during mass and picture someone doing an Irish jig or worse yet an interpretive veil dance in front of the altar. And on special occasions I would be treated to a Teen Mass (need I say more?) Even my kids would cringe at these Masses.

Within the past year, the hunky-dunky Mass has given way to something more sinister, the Hep-Cat Mass. The music played at this Mass is considered by someone to be contemporary. I think that it is more in line with the Cedar Creek entertainment church down the street.

2000 plus years of wonderful music stretching from the middle-ages though the Renaissance, into the 18th and 19th centuries and I must include the hymns from Appalachia. And all of this culminating with what I’ve just described.

So, there I’ve said it. I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I hope to contribute amore positive outlook in future entries but I saw the subject, read the comments and just had to vent. Thanks.

 

[WhiteLeather]

I would not want to hear drums at Mass !

Then you don’t want to read Psalm 150.

 

[WhiteLeather]

2000 plus years of wonderful music stretching from the middle-ages though the Renaissance, into the 18th and 19th centuries and I must include the hymns from Appalachia. And all of this culminating with what I’ve just described.

So, there I’ve said it. I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I hope to contribute amore positive outlook in future entries but I saw the subject, read the comments and just had to vent. Thanks.

Try to remember that in every generation, the music of the previous generation is seen by some as “right” and the newest is not. Frank Sinatra was dismissed as a teeny-bopper-type, for example. Now he’s nostalgia. Even the pipe organ found a difficult journey in the church, being a profane pub instrument. Not only that, but because the stops have names like “violin”, “trumpet”, and such, it was seen as a “union-busting” machine designed to put real musicians out of work.

I grew up listening to an all-styles AM station, and so developed a taste for most styles of music. I love classical, I love classic rock, I love jazz, I love blues, etc. Good music did not stop being written yet. But don’t dismiss a style you don’t like if others find it helpful to their prayer.

A well-rounded church music program will incorporate all styles at all Masses. We shouldn’t make musical “ghettos” and divide our parishes over music. There simply is no one right style of music for the Mass in the whole world. Embrace and enjoy the variety!!

The only music abuses we should concern ourselves with is when a choir, ensemble, group, soloist insists on performing rather than leading the sung prayer of the assembly. It’s OUR prayer, not “my” prayer.

 

[Moore11]

Then you don’t want to read Psalm 150.

Psalm 150 was talking about the Mass? Hmmmm

 

[WhiteLeather]

Psalm 150 was talking about the Mass? Hmmmm

Better. Praising God!