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seekerz
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Thank you. One would think it was actually a sin or something to use a particular instrument rather than another. King David would chuckle to read this thread, I think.
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Lawrence178
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Gregorian chant was a form of music specifically developed to suit our worship. I’m not saying that we can only use chant, but do you think that Protestant rock like this has the same character, that is, focusing our minds on the worship of God? Because I don’t. Encouraging people to go up to the piano and rocking out should not be the goal of music at Mass. In fact it is pretty much the diametric opposite. The music should be peaceful and Heavenly, not fit for light-shows and solos like this one is.
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seekerz
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“Solemn and heavenly”? Read the Psalms: you’ll find solemn, joyful, catchy, playful, deep, brooding and every other dimension of human experience. So, unless there are ‘un-heavenly’ Psalms…David actually danced in worship of God, so I daresay he did not find only solemnity synonymous with “heavenly”.
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pnewton
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I have no opinion on “Protestant rock.” I am unfamiliar with that term/genre. But to the song I mentioned, I would say for some, it might well focus the mind more than chant. Gregorian chant is probably our greatest musical heritage as Catholics, but it is not magic and it is not universally appealing.
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pnewton
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There is, in 1903. Likewise, one can find organs and polyphonic chant condemned and forbidden, in Church history.
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Sarabande
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I do understand what you are talking about in analyzing. I know that it can sometimes be distracting. For me, if I allow my mind to do it, I analyze and critique everything… any kind of style of music, actually. I guess the difference for me, though, is that the more complex the music or masterful the instrumentalist/singer are, the closer I feel in touch with God. (Not that I can’t or don’t feel close to God when I hear more simplistic music.)OTOH, I have a terrible time trying to pray during a Bach prelude on the pipe organ, or while someone is chanting. To me, these musical styles are “theatrical” because that’s how I grew up–hearing them in a concert setting. **I find myself analyzing the technique of the organist, or the singer. **
Another thing I think that should be pointed out is that many people of my generation and younger, also did not grow up with chant, polyphony, great organ pieces, etc. at mass. As a child, with the exception of a very short period, the only places where I heard Gregorian chant and such other music were either in concerts, recitals, music classes or in movies… in secular settings. I grew up with a lot of the pseudo-folk and church hymns from the 80s and 90s. Most of the pieces organs played were for the hymns, or we had guitars and flutes. Newman Center masses were always electric piano and guitars, because we didn’t have any other instruments available.
Perhaps because I grew up in a more mainstream denomination and knew that the music I hardly ever heard at mass was actually part of my faith heritage, I longed for it at mass. It never sounded theatrical even though I only heard it in secular settings. There was a depth to it that I never heard with other music. Whenever I heard it, I couldn’t understand why it was “no longer allowed” or “no longer done because it was old” at mass (as was told to me by the people of my parents generation).
That all said, I don’t believe classical music or polyphony is appropriate for mass just because it is classical or polyphony or because I prefer it and love it. (Chant of various kinds from all different faith traditions, especially the ancient ones, seemed to mostly be for sacred/religious use… so it is in a completely different class). There is a lot of secular classical music and we have to remember that polyphony also started out as secular music. There is also a lot of religious classical works which, although has sacred/religious text, still isn’t appropriate for liturgy.
When I was younger, my reasons for wanting chant, polyphony or classical at mass was more emotional, how it affected me spiritually and also based on quality of composition and the talent of the musicians (which isn’t always the case). As I came to understand the reasons why the Church banned certain music and instruments in the past or wanted music refined for mass, I saw that it had nothing to do with my emotional attachment to music, even if it is a natural human expression. There is a lot of music I would love to do at mass, but I don’t because I realize it isn’t appropriate liturgical music. I’m trying to follow the rules as well as I can.
Some styles of singing or playing (and this includes certain ways of classical singing and playing) calls for a way of “performing” which would be considered too “theatrical” or “secular”. I’m not of the mind that only one kind of music can be used, like chant. We can see from history that sacred/liturgical music has evolved and has been accepted, but always with a condition of refining it from the original. If certain instruments, ways of singing, genres, styles, etc. can be refined so that it can adapt to the liturgy, I don’t see a problem with it. Just as a classical singer who sings with a fully-operatic voice without toning it down a bit at mass is inappropriate for liturgy, so are other singers not toning down their voices, instrumentalist refining their ways of playing a style or genre more associated with the secular world or composers thinking of the instruments/voices and what they are writing for, rather than purely on the emotional and artistic side of composing/writing (which shouldn’t be completely dropped either).
Hope I’m making sense. Although some of my opinions stay the same, others are constantly evolving as I age.
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The_Curt_Jester
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I have difficulty praying during a Bach postlude, but that’s because I’m listening to it. This is probably because I am a musician. Were I someone else, I’d probably block it out easily enough. There’s always plenty of time to pray after the postlude if need be. After all, it’s Sunday and why a rush to get out the door?
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Sarabande
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For the two parishes I currently work for, both have organs. One is the a real pipe organ and is housed in a church over 200 years old. It’s a beautiful instrument. The other is an electric organ and housed in a church a little over 100 years old. It’s an ok instrument and gets the job done, but I know the organist there would love to have the real deal. You can do so much more with the real thing.
At the one with the electric organ, we do a mix of the typical hymns from the Gather hymnal (some good, others not so great) and then also so-called “high brow” music either with instrumentals for strings, brass, etc. or with the voice for the communion meditation after the hymn, for instance. We are usually asked to sing a sacred/religious piece from the classical vocal repertoire. Sometimes, as much as I love the works, they are not always appropriate because we do have to sometimes sing with a full operatic voice as the music requires (no other way around it) to avoid it sounding ridiculous, but I do as I am told and that is what the pastor wants. The organist studied at Julliard and so is a very accomplished and competent musician and organist. Most of her organ background for churches have been in mainstream Protestant churches, so one of the things I have found interesting is that she often does not use the actual accompaniments to the 70s/80s hymns like “Gift of Finest Wheat”, “City of God”, “On Eagles Wings”, etc. She plays them sometimes with completely different chords than what was written in the actual accompaniment and in such a way where it sounds like an “older” traditional hymn, rather than something more recent. It’s one of the reasons why I can see even more how the way someone plays or sings a piece of music makes more of a difference in the appropriateness of the piece than the actual piece itself.
The other parish doesn’t do much of the classical repertoire during the actual liturgy, but we don’t do anything out of the ordinary either. Just normal hymns and all done with an organ. The organist is not as accomplished as the other one, but does a good job with what he does and knows. We’re fortunate to have him. The pastor doesn’t like a lot of singing of the mass like singing the Gloria except for special occasions and he’s not into much chanting, unless also for special occasions, so mostly everything is recited. When I first started working there, there were apparently a couple people who wanted to add a guitar for mass, but that was shot down almost immediately by the parish. I remember hearing people after mass going up to father and telling him absolutely not, especially since we have a good organ, so that hasn’t come up again.
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Sarabande
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That’s true. I think because I am a musician, as well, instead of trying to analyze/critique it, I try to allow it be intertwined with my prayer. If I’m singing, I’m praying through the music, so I try to do the same thing if I’m listening rather than be the one “performing”.
That said, I know and understand how that can be distracting, too.
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superamazingman
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tra le sollecitudini.
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pnewton
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This has already been mentioned. It is the name of the 1903 document referenced earlier. Funny they had to say that fifty years before the changes in the Mass. I would assume drums are still not used ever in the EF.
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Cimachol
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My own feeling is that if the choir isn’t supposed to be using pianos, drums or any other instrument, it is the job of the pastor to straighten that out. If I were to complain about it, I’d be written off as some kind of uptight blowhard.
That said, I don’t necessarily have a prejudice against any particular instrument, but I do think the choir needs to remember that they are there to support the Mass, not to perform. A drum solo, by its very nature, shouts, “Look at me! I’m a drummer!” I’d say the same for a sax solo, and I’m a sax player. That’s fine at a rock concert, but the Mass is not the place for it. Unfortunately, the choir at my parish has been known to try to turn the Mass into a performance opportunity.
I’m far more concerned with what is being sung these days – things like, “I myself am the Bread of Life” (Um, then why do I need Jesus?) – but that’s probably for another thread.
That said, I don’t necessarily have a prejudice against any particular instrument, but I do think the choir needs to remember that they are there to support the Mass, not to perform. A drum solo, by its very nature, shouts, “Look at me! I’m a drummer!” I’d say the same for a sax solo, and I’m a sax player. That’s fine at a rock concert, but the Mass is not the place for it. Unfortunately, the choir at my parish has been known to try to turn the Mass into a performance opportunity.
I’m far more concerned with what is being sung these days – things like, “I myself am the Bread of Life” (Um, then why do I need Jesus?) – but that’s probably for another thread.
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Lawrence178
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David was not witnessing the Crucifixion of God’s son. We are. Not something to be hopping around for.
You aren’t focusing on praying if you are running up to the piano to join in rocking out and singing your favorite pop hit.
Citation please. Not doubting, just curious.
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seekerz
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“I am the bread of life” is a beautiful song quoting almost word for word, the passage in the Gospel where Jesus says those words. The “I” does not refer to us, but to Jesus.
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seekerz
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“Not supposed to”? I don’t know about you, but when I take part in the celebration of the Mass, I find it possible to be both reverent and joyful, as was David when he danced in the streets.
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Lawrence178
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Would you sing this song if you were witnessing the Crucifixion of Our Lord? Because that is what is being presented to us. I know I wouldn’t.
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pnewton
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I sure wouldn’t be chanting, or singing at all.
This question pops up. I find it to be an incredibly illogical argument. Even the Exultet makes no sense to sing if one was at the foot to the cross. Easter Mass makes no sense. Christmas Mass makes no sense. It is not 2000 years ago at the cross. We cannot write off the “re” part of representation of Calvary. We are an Easter people. We have Mass on Sundays, not Friday, for a reason.
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anruari
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The current cannon law that applies to the Mass in the USA is given in the GIRM:
That’s here on the Vatican Website:
GIRM
That is the most current ruling on the subject. it is the General Instruction to the Roman Missal, and the quoted text is specific to the Americas
Bold emphasis is mine.
- Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy,[152] all musical settings of the texts for the people’s responses and acclamations in the Order of Mass and for special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for review and approval prior to publication.
That’s here on the Vatican Website:
GIRM
That is the most current ruling on the subject. it is the General Instruction to the Roman Missal, and the quoted text is specific to the Americas
Bold emphasis is mine.
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anruari
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Mind you that does not mean that the use of a drum solo during the Great Amen was Apt for the mass in question.
I might think it permissible at mass for a major feast, (or in the tide of a major feast) when the mass is targeted at a group for whom the drums would have strong cultural significance such as a youth mass for Easter
I can think of a particular polyphonic renedition of the Great Amen which a choir I sang in as a teenager used for big celebrations. it was sung accapella with clapping.
It could be liturgically suitable for such a big celebration, at a mass aimed at the youth, in a parish where those who prefer other forms of music have the choice to attend Mass with a more traditional Choir at other times.
I might think it permissible at mass for a major feast, (or in the tide of a major feast) when the mass is targeted at a group for whom the drums would have strong cultural significance such as a youth mass for Easter
I can think of a particular polyphonic renedition of the Great Amen which a choir I sang in as a teenager used for big celebrations. it was sung accapella with clapping.
It could be liturgically suitable for such a big celebration, at a mass aimed at the youth, in a parish where those who prefer other forms of music have the choice to attend Mass with a more traditional Choir at other times.
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patrick457
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My opinion on the dance is what Cardinal Arinze had once expressed - the dance has never been a part of the Roman Rite, or for that matter most rites in both East and West, so attempting to introduce dancing within the liturgy would be at best, artificial. Now the Ethiopians do have a form of dancing (wo’reb) alongside the use of instruments in the context of the liturgy (a St. Yared is credited with composing the Ethiopian Christian music tradition in the 6th century). Not to mention that some other African cultures do have a concept of dance as worship. But that’s exactly the problem: we aren’t all Africans. Many of the ‘dances’ in Masses in the West are, instead of being woven into the fabric of the liturgy and being an integral part of it like these legitimate examples, rather crudely grafted into the structure of the Roman Mass (which had not known this thing until recently) and thus tend to be ‘show-stoppers’ which disrupt and distract. The wo’reb is a good example of true liturgical dance; many of the dances in our churches are anything but.
So for me, I have no problem with people praising God through dance. Just don’t do it during Mass.
Sometimes I feel tempted to say that if we’re going to bring up David in support of Western liturgical dance, why not also the dance of the priests of Baal or that of the Israelites before the golden calf? At least those were in the context of sacrifice.
So for me, I have no problem with people praising God through dance. Just don’t do it during Mass.
Sometimes I feel tempted to say that if we’re going to bring up David in support of Western liturgical dance, why not also the dance of the priests of Baal or that of the Israelites before the golden calf? At least those were in the context of sacrifice.
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