MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary

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JamesCaruso said:
After Vatican II it fell to the Sacred Congregation of Rites (today called Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) to apply the norms of Sacrosanctum Concilium. Musicam sacram (Sacred Music) establishes what can be called sacred music.

I won’t bore you with a lengthy rendering of its contents, but I cherry picked a few paragraphs on point:

…The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

…However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/music_and_instruments.htm
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Thank you! So correct!

I mean, our mass is the subject of two thousand years of the most brilliant composers of Europe and the Mid East. And instead I (and some of you) get subjected to, “Our God is an awesome God, oh yeah, Sing it”?? One of my main contentions in this as well is that there should be no Protestant music in a Holy Catholic Mass, period.

The Lamb of God rendition that was posted is another example of the kind I am talking about. The one I am referencing in particular – maybe some of you will recognize it; it is for some opaque reason quite popular – goes like, "You take away (you take away) The si-iyi-iyns (the si-iyi-iyns) of THE WO-O-ORLD (THE WOO-OO-OORLD!!). To me, it almost sounds like ridicule.

So back to my original question of what to do, I am completely at a loss. Unfortunately no monasteries or convents around here ): I do watch ETWN mass, however (pristine). There is one ‘Tridentine’ church, but they are SSPX so I of course cannot attend their Latin mass. The thing is that I really want to go to the Greek Orthodox liturgy but I don’t know if it is acceptable for a Roman Catholic to do that with regularity… Just want to be in my own Catholic Church without all of this Protestant musical infiltration…
 
Why is this type of music used in the Mass? I’m thinking it is because we have very few organized/parish sponsored activities outside of the Mass for people to share their talents. That is certainly no excuse, but I think it has something to do with it.

For instance, these musicians in the following video are quite accomplished in their genre, but their “performance” (and that’s what it is) is suited for another type of gathering (sans the sacred text):
youtube.com/watch?v=275-Fp7ef84

We are sent forth after Mass to go out into the world and bring Christ to all - why not take the priest’s bidding, and share these talents more often in a non-liturgical religious setting? In this case, even in a coffee house or bar.

I’m not faulting the musicians in this case, but surely someone must have known better, at least the priest!
 
I guess you don’t have an Extraordinary Form Mass near you. I do have one suggestion: where I live the very early Sunday Masses don’t have any music.😉 I confess that during Advent I was tempted to go to a Music-free Mass because I was tired of all the noise at the typical Masses. (I wasn’t feeling well and had been dealing with relatives.):imsorry: I also like Daily Mass too. Good luck trying escape contemporary music. I have a wide range of options in my area but I can tolerate contemporary music 😛 except for some of the Protestant Praise and Worship stuff.😦
 
mburn16 said:
"I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me. "

With due respect, would you find organ and singing to be any less distracting? Because, while I can appreciate your frustrations (though I don’t happen to share them), its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.
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Which is the problem. Church music before the Council was often not great, but the choirs were in the back and not so distracting. With the reforms, suddenly they were in the front, supposedly to lead the congregation in singing. More like entertainers than leaders, however. The most effective cantor I have seen in forty years was last summer in a small church in western Wyoming. He sang acapella, with a pleasing and clear baritone voice with the same respect for the words that we find with crooners like Crosby and Como.The whole congregation, made up of locals and tourists were easily able to follow along, even though it was obviously by the way they struggled with the first verse that they didn’t know some of the songs. By the end, most of the congregation was coming on strong. But you have to have a decent musician up there, not just some guy who thinks he can sing.
 
I listened to the video the other poster found. Honestly, while I don’t much like the newer sounding music either, I think it’s sort of selfish of you to say that Mass is almost too “painful” to attend just because of guitars and a beat set by a drum. Do you honestly think the guitar is some sort of new-fangled invention? It has been around arguably longer than the pipe organ…

Being at ANY mass should be a privilege. My parish has an organ and a choir, but, God bless them, they are severely incompetent and sometimes when I hear them I wish they would just stop. But you know–I’m (and you’re) at the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! Our Lord is actually present on the altar! So what if the music is a little off? You don’t think there was ever a priest or two from back in the “good old days” who couldn’t carry a tune, or who just didn’t try? Would that make you go to the nearest Orthodox Church?

I hope I’m not coming across as aggressive because that’s not my intention. My primary parish right now is in a gym because of a fire in the main church building, and we are using an electronic keyboard for the music right now, with an occasional choir. That’s it. The only thing separating us from our parish’s eating area and kitchen is a big curtain someone donated. We are all on fold-out chairs and above us is the basketball goal. As I said earlier, the music isn’t exactly high-caliber. But it’s still the Mass. We should all remember that when we get grumpy about stuff in our parish environment.

When you get mad about little stuff, perhaps think about the priest–you don’t think he wouldn’t prefer to be celebrating at Notre Dame, flanked by a professional boy choir and 2 deacons? We all have to make due with our lot and work to improve what we can where we can. Be humble and remember that no matter how awful the music may be, it’s still the Mass.

Now if you have legitimate concerns about the orthodoxy of the music, you should present them to your priest, and if he doesn’t listen go to the bishop. But just because someone is playing a banjo doesn’t mean there’s heresy.

I want to reiterate that I’m not mad, nor am I judging you. It just seems that you are overreacting to the extras and forgetting the essentials.
 
AssisiFollower said:
So back to my original question of what to do, I am completely at a loss. Unfortunately no monasteries or convents around here ): I do watch ETWN mass, however (pristine). There is one ‘Tridentine’ church, but they are SSPX so I of course cannot attend their Latin mass. The thing is that I really want to go to the Greek Orthodox liturgy but I don’t know if it is acceptable for a Roman Catholic to do that with regularity… Just want to be in my own Catholic Church without all of this Protestant musical infiltration…
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You state this as an impossible situation. There are no acceptable Catholic churches, no monasteries or convents, only churches which are no longer in communion with Rome.

Are all the churches in the Diocese the same? Is the Bishop a proponent of the type of Masses your describe? If not, you could bring your dilemma to his attention. Short of that, you have two alternatives:

  1. ]Relocate.]Offer it up, as someone suggested earlier.

    Offering up our sufferings is uniquely Christian.

    1 Peter 2
    19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.

    Colossians 1
    24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

    Every morning I offer up any sufferings or sacrifices I experience that day for our Blessed Mother’s intentions, whose heart is one with her Son’s. This turns my sufferings into joys, into opportunities instead of complaints, knowing that my acceptance of the sufferings which come my way are transformed into prayers that Our Lady can use to further the work of her Son. Acceptance of suffering is redemptive, healing, and a source of spiritual growth.

    A priest reminded me the other day that suffering is sin, that is, it is the result of sin that suffering is in the world. Jesus took on all the sin of the world when he allowed himself to be nailed to the cross. We, as members of His Mystical Body, can imitate and conform ourselves to his suffering for sin by accepting the consequences of sin as we experience them in this post-Eden world of ours. I’m no theologian, but I think I have stated it fairly.
 
AssisiFollower said:
Hello friends,

I have seen here some of you discuss the ‘drumset and guitar problem’ which many of us are trying to work through. In my entire county, there are no Catholic churches that do not have this problem. I have tried them all ):

I honestly cannot do it anymore. It is interfering majorly with my relationship with Christ in the mass. I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me.

The closest Byzantine rite church is three hours away. I want to start going to the Greek Orthodox Church down the street just for the liturgy, but I cannot do this because by my convictions I must keep full faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church.

Any suggestions for this? Please help. It becomes almost painful for me sometimes during mass. Of course I cannot and will not stop going to mass, so I don’t know what to do. Thank you for your help.
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Come to St Paul Pensacola FL. Especially the 11 am on Sunday. We do it well. If not ask.
 
From the Screwtape Letters:
You mentioned casually in your last letter that the patient has continued to
attend one church, and one only, since he was converted, and that he is not
wholly pleased with it. May I ask what you are about? Why have I no report on
the causes of his fidelity to the parish church? Do you realise that unless it
is due to indifference it is a very bad thing? Surely you know that if a man
can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the
neighbourhood looking for the church that “suits” him until he becomes a taster
or connoisseur of churches.

The reasons are obvious. In the first place the parochial organisation should
always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it
brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity
the Enemy desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each
church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or
faction. In the second place, the search for a “suitable” church makes the man a
Page 45

critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in
church is an attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting
what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it
does not appraise—does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but
lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptivity to any nourishment that is
going. (You see how grovelling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!)
This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to
our whole policy) in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul.
There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it
is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round
of the neighbouring churches as soon as possible. Your record up to date has not
given us much satisfaction.

The two churches nearest to him, I have looked up in the office. Both have
certain claims. At the first of these the Vicar is a man who has been so long
engaged in watering down the faith to make it easier for supposedly incredulous
and hard-headed congregation that it is now he who shocks his parishioners with
his unbelief, not vice versa. He has undermined many a soul’s Christianity. His
conduct of the services is also admirable. In order to spare the laity all
“difficulties” he has deserted both the lectionary and the appointed psalms and
now, without noticing it, revolves endlessly round the little treadmill of his
fifteen favourite psalms and twenty favourite lessons. We are thus safe from the
danger that any truth not already familiar to him and to his flock should over
reach them through Scripture. But perhaps bur patient is not quite silly enough
for this church—or not yet?

At the other church we have Fr. Spike. The humans are often puzzled to
understand the range of his opinions—why he is one day almost a Communist and
the next not far from some kind of theocratic Fascism—one day a scholastic, and
the next prepared to deny human reason altogether—one day immersed in politics,
and, the day after, declaring that all states of us world are equally “under
judgment”. We, of course, see the connecting link, which is Hatred. The man
cannot bring himself to teach anything which is not calculated to mock, grieve,
puzzle, or humiliate his parents and their friends. A sermon which such people
would accept would be to him as insipid as a poem which they could scan. There
is also a promising streak of dishonesty in him; we are teaching him to say “The
teaching of the Church is” when he really means “I’m almost sure I read recently
in Maritain or someone of that sort”. But I must warn you that he has one fatal
defect: he really believes. And this may yet mar all.

But there is one good point which both these churches have in common—they are
both party churches. I think I warned you before that if your patient can’t be
kept out of the Church, he ought at least to be violently attached to some party
within it. I don’t mean on really doctrinal issues; about those, the more
lukewarm he is the better. And it isn’t the doctrines on which we chiefly depend
for producing malice. The real fun is working up hatred between those who say
“mass” and those who say “holy communion” when neither party could possibly
state the difference between, say, Hooker’s doctrine and Thomas Aquinas’, in any
form which would hold water for five minutes. And all the purely indifferent
things—candles and clothes and what not—are an admirable ground for our
activities. We have quite removed from men’s minds what that pestilent fellow
Paul used to teach about food and other unessentials—namely, that the human
without scruples should always give in to the human with scruples. You would
think they could not fail to see the application. You would expect to find the
“low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of
his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining
from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And
so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour. Without that the variety of
usage within the Church of England might have become a positive hotbed of
charity and humility,
 
NovusAugustus said:
I listened to the video the other poster found. Honestly, while I don’t much like the newer sounding music either, I think it’s sort of selfish of you to say that Mass is almost too “painful” to attend just because of guitars and a beat set by a drum. Do you honestly think the guitar is some sort of new-fangled invention? It has been around arguably longer than the pipe organ…

Being at ANY mass should be a privilege. My parish has an organ and a choir, but, God bless them, they are severely incompetent and sometimes when I hear them I wish they would just stop. But you know–I’m (and you’re) at the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! Our Lord is actually present on the altar! So what if the music is a little off? You don’t think there was ever a priest or two from back in the “good old days” who couldn’t carry a tune, or who just didn’t try? Would that make you go to the nearest Orthodox Church?

I hope I’m not coming across as aggressive because that’s not my intention. My primary parish right now is in a gym because of a fire in the main church building, and we are using an electronic keyboard for the music right now, with an occasional choir. That’s it. The only thing separating us from our parish’s eating area and kitchen is a big curtain someone donated. We are all on fold-out chairs and above us is the basketball goal. As I said earlier, the music isn’t exactly high-caliber. But it’s still the Mass. We should all remember that when we get grumpy about stuff in our parish environment.

When you get mad about little stuff, perhaps think about the priest–you don’t think he wouldn’t prefer to be celebrating at Notre Dame, flanked by a professional boy choir and 2 deacons? We all have to make due with our lot and work to improve what we can where we can. Be humble and remember that no matter how awful the music may be, it’s still the Mass.

Now if you have legitimate concerns about the orthodoxy of the music, you should present them to your priest, and if he doesn’t listen go to the bishop. But just because someone is playing a banjo doesn’t mean there’s heresy.

I want to reiterate that I’m not mad, nor am I judging you. It just seems that you are overreacting to the extras and forgetting the essentials.
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This is really not about the quality of, or whether I like, the music. It is about a) its appropriateness during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and b) not being heretical. Both have been exhibited problems. I don’t have tolerance for either. I do not think that that makes me ungrateful for being able to attend the mass (of course I have never missed a Sunday, and I attend the rest of the week when I am not working).

My main contention is that I do not think that we as parishioners should tolerate the aforementioned two exhibited problems. I personally will not tolerate heretical and irreverent song lyrics at a Holy Catholic Mass; I think that this is just unfortunately another form where I have to stand up for my beliefs. Just because other Catholics may think that is acceptable does not mean that I have to give my acquiescence.

So, as I am personally affected by it, I am trying to figure out what I can do about this Sunday situation… I do not think of this as lacking in humility; conversely, I think what is lacking in humility is musicians thinking they can do as they like during the Holy Mass – I simply do not want to be a part of that.
 
JamesCaruso said:
You state this as an impossible situation. There are no acceptable Catholic churches, no monasteries or convents, only churches which are no longer in communion with Rome.

Are all the churches in the Diocese the same? Is the Bishop a proponent of the type of Masses your describe? If not, you could bring your dilemma to his attention. Short of that, you have two alternatives:

  1. ]Relocate.]Offer it up, as someone suggested earlier.

    Offering up our sufferings is uniquely Christian.

    1 Peter 2
    19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.

    Colossians 1
    24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

    Every morning I offer up any sufferings or sacrifices I experience that day for our Blessed Mother’s intentions, whose heart is one with her Son’s. This turns my sufferings into joys, into opportunities instead of complaints, knowing that my acceptance of the sufferings which come my way are transformed into prayers that Our Lady can use to further the work of her Son. Acceptance of suffering is redemptive, healing, and a source of spiritual growth.

    A priest reminded me the other day that suffering is sin, that is, it is the result of sin that suffering is in the world. Jesus took on all the sin of the world when he allowed himself to be nailed to the cross. We, as members of His Mystical Body, can imitate and conform ourselves to his suffering for sin by accepting the consequences of sin as we experience them in this post-Eden world of ours. I’m no theologian, but I think I have stated it fairly.
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  1. You have stated it fairly. I think those of you who have suggested offering this up are suggesting the best possible response to this… I will have to make it as such…

    Thank you for helping me and for sympathizing in recognizing this as a problem.
 
RobbyS said:
Which is the problem. Church music before the Council was often not great, but the choirs were in the back and not so distracting. With the reforms, suddenly they were in the front, supposedly to lead the congregation in singing. More like entertainers than leaders, however. The most effective cantor I have seen in forty years was last summer in a small church in western Wyoming. He sang acapella, with a pleasing and clear baritone voice with the same respect for the words that we find with crooners like Crosby and Como.The whole congregation, made up of locals and tourists were easily able to follow along, even though it was obviously by the way they struggled with the first verse that they didn’t know some of the songs. By the end, most of the congregation was coming on strong. But you have to have a decent musician up there, not just some guy who thinks he can sing.
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From The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described, which describes the pre-Vatican II (and still in force) rubrics of the Latin Mass:

WE must note first that the “choir” during a service
does not necessarily mean those who sing.
It was so originally. In theory, no doubt, it
should be so still, namely, that the singers have
their places right and left of the altar and sing
there. But there are often practical difficulties against this.
In singing part-music especially it is often difficult to produce
a good artistic effect when the singers are arranged in two
rows facing each other, perhaps at some distance, across the
church. Often, therefore, the actual singers are placed elsewhere,
in a space together at the side behind a grating, behind
the altar, or in a gallery at the other end of the church. In
such cases no notice is taken of them during the ceremonies.
 
AssisiFollower said:
So, as I am personally affected by it, I am trying to figure out what I can do about this Sunday situation… I do not think of this as lacking in humility; conversely, I think what is lacking in humility is musicians thinking they can do as they like during the Holy Mass – I simply do not want to be a part of that.
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You can choose to participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass and commune with Christ in spite of the music or, you can relocate. As long as the Mass is valid, if it is the only place to attend, you have the obligation to attend.

Offer your sufferings as a sacrifice to Christ. This is humility. Even as others scoff at Christ, stand faithfully by Christ on Calvary as his Sacrifice is re-presented.
 
mburn16 said:
"its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.
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The problem is that people playing guitars and drum sets in front of the congregation during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and at communion is nothing but a distraction for many people. That’s why Pope Benedict XVI has urged the return of Sacred Music and to do away with what belongs outside of the most sacred and holy event on earth.
 
To me personally, traditional music at Mass is much more spiritually uplifting and really edifies the Mass. I completely agree with you.
 
Zekariya said:
You can choose to participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass and commune with Christ in spite of the music or, you can relocate. As long as the Mass is valid, if it is the only place to attend, you have the obligation to attend.

Offer your sufferings as a sacrifice to Christ. This is humility. Even as others scoff at Christ, stand faithfully by Christ on Calvary as his Sacrifice is re-presented.
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I do not mean that I would ever de-value the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or think that I would not have to go! Or not want to go!

The contention is that I would not agree with the irreverent things that happen around and during the Holy Liturgy, never it itself – and I hadn’t known how to go about things that I saw as problematic. This is not a comment about our OF Mass itself! ): Please understand
 
Zekariya said:
Y
Offer your sufferings as a sacrifice to Christ. This is humility. Even as others scoff at Christ, stand faithfully by Christ on Calvary as his Sacrifice is re-presented.
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Instead of putting up with that ****** music as a sacrifice, why not instead urge the pastor to foster better music appropriate for the Sacrifice of Calvary. Maybe instead of remaining silent, people who want a more sacred approach to music in the liturgy should acquaint their parish priest with this document
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
Instead of putting up with that ****** music as a sacrifice, why not instead urge the pastor to foster better music appropriate for the Sacrifice of Calvary. Maybe instead of remaining silent, people who want a more sacred approach to music in the liturgy should acquaint their parish priest with this document
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I support attempting to correct things. In the mean time, he must attend Sunday Mass.

CCC 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.” 190
  1. Council of Trent (1562): Doctrina de ss. Missae sacrificio, c. 2: DS 1743; cf. Heb 9:14, 27.
 
AssisiFollower said:
This is really not about the quality of, or whether I like, the music. It is about a) its appropriateness during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and b) not being heretical. Both have been exhibited problems. I don’t have tolerance for either. I do not think that that makes me ungrateful for being able to attend the mass (of course I have never missed a Sunday, and I attend the rest of the week when I am not working).

My main contention is that I do not think that we as parishioners should tolerate the aforementioned two exhibited problems. I personally will not tolerate heretical and irreverent song lyrics at a Holy Catholic Mass; I think that this is just unfortunately another form where I have to stand up for my beliefs. Just because other Catholics may think that is acceptable does not mean that I have to give my acquiescence.

So, as I am personally affected by it, I am trying to figure out what I can do about this Sunday situation… I do not think of this as lacking in humility; conversely, I think what is lacking in humility is musicians thinking they can do as they like during the Holy Mass – I simply do not want to be a part of that.
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Hi. Sorry you’re having to endure this. I’ve chimed in on more than a few of these threads lately. So, with respect to the problem of style and genre, feel free to see what I’ve said in the past. But, specifically, I’d like to know what heretical lyrics you’ve encountered.

I would never support what are blatantly heretical lyrics. But, I’m wondering what they are specifically.
 
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