MERGED: New law in Ireland: priests must break Confessional seal re. abuse

[bethanysamuel]

New law coming in saying that priests will face upto 5 years in jail if they dont report abuse, even in the Confessional…

And Ireland thought the last government were bad…

 

[drforjc]

New law coming in saying that priests will face upto 5 years in jail if they dont report abuse, even in the Confessional…

And Ireland thought the last government were bad…

They are supposed to be prepared to give their life for the Seal. May God strengthen any priests in that situation! The Seal is inviolable.

 

[bethanysamuel]

This is obviously a serious attack on the Church and a grave offence against God

 

[LaSainte]

This is obviously a serious attack on the Church and a grave offence against God

Sorry but this is not an attack on the Church. If this were any other religion (Muslim for example) that required their religiois heirarchy to essentially keep hidden the activities of confessed child abusers, we would be going berserk.

In fact, what if the Jews had a similar practice and that Orthodox Jewish pedophile who just kidnapped that Little boy in New York had gone to a rabbi and confessed that he had that little boy sleeping in his house? Should we be in favor of a legal system that would allow the rabbi to just sit on that information? If this had happened and the rabbi had gone to the cops, then maybe that little boy could have been saved instead of being found chopped into pieces in the guy’s kitchen.

The secular government has the right and obligation to protect these most innocent of victims, and the priests can choose to ignore the law in favor of Church teaching or to co-operate with authorities. The Irish government is doing nothing wrong here.

 

[Corki]

Sorry but this is not an attack on the Church. If this were any other religion (Muslim for example) that required their religiois heirarchy to essentially keep hidden the activities of confessed child abusers, we would be going berserk. The secular government has the right and obligation to protect these most innocent of victims, and the priests can choose to ignore the law in favor of Church teaching or to co-operate with authorities. The Irish government is doing nothing wrong here.

The priest cannot choose to co-operate with the law if it means breaking the seal of Confession. It’s an excommunicable offense.

It’s not requiring the heirarch to hide anything. The heirarchy have no more access to the content of a Confession than any other person. A confession is entirely between the priest and the penitent.

As someone stated on another thread, the solution is for all priests to only offer anonymous confessions.

 

[LaSainte]

The priest cannot choose to co-operate with the law if it means breaking the seal of Confession. It’s an excommunicable offense.

It’s not requiring the heirarch to hide anything. The heirarchy have no more access to the content of a Confession than any other person. A confession is entirely between the priest and the penitent.

As someone stated on another thread, the solution is for all priests to only offer anonymous confessions.

Yes but to say that it is an attack on the Church for a secular government require someone with knowledge of a crime such as pedophelia to step forward is just silly. The law is there to protect the people, not to indulge people’s religious sensibilities.

Frankly, if God-forbid something like this should ever happen to one of my own children and some psycho confesses to it, I sincerely hope that the priest would violate the seal to protect and possibly save my child.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Then I propose that the priests and bishops in Ireland offer this:

They announce to the faithful that any person who confesses to this sin to a priest must, before being absolved, immediately stop the confession then and there and contact the local police. They let them know this police ahead of time–it will be posted in the newspapers, in the church bulletins, and printed up in the churches by the confessionals.

If the person refuses, the priest will excommunicate them.

Every time a person is excommunicated, the priest will send out to the local police that person’s name as ‘excommunicated’.

Now, people are not excommunicated ONLY for child abuse, but this way the priest is not abusing the seal of the confessional. Since excommunication is a public matter the priest is also not breaking any ‘rules’ by giving names to ANYBODY about a person who is excommunicated. The police will then interrogate all excommunicated people and thus, will be aware that this person is POSSIBLY guilty of abuse. I mean, even if a person actually confesses to child abuse to a priest, the person could be lying (there are some disturbed people out there) so it is still innocent until proven guilty.

Wouldn’t this solve the problem? Either the person immediately confesses to the police (with the priest as a moral support, not necessary as a witness because the person is confessing outright to the police). . .or the person knows he will be excommunicated and his name as an excommunicated person given to the police. Again, all the priest needs to say is that the person is excommunicated and leave it up to the authorities to make a case.

 

[GEddie]

Considering that at least one priest, in 1871 France, almost lost his head (literally) rather than break the seal, I’d say the priests of Ireland have a monumental example to live up to. God help them!

Stupid question #1: Does any other religious entity have an equivalent to the Catholic confessional seal? I imagine that Orthodoxy has something similar; I know from expereince that Protestantism does not. What about Islam? Judaism? Anybody?

Stupid question #2: Has this kind of a “seal” in another religion ever been a legal issue historically? Or has this been a purely Catholic concern?

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Corki]

Yes but to say that it is an attack on the Church for a secular government require someone with knowledge of a crime such as pedophelia to step forward is just silly. The law is there to protect the people, not to indulge people’s religious sensibilities.

I don’t know where you live but in the US such a move would be a violation of the Constitution. The US Constitution includes freedom of Religion which means that the Government cannot interfere with the practice of religion. The particular law may protect some people but the Constitution protects religion. I do not know if there are any similar protections in Ireland.

Frankly, if God-forbid something like this should ever happen to one of my own children and some psycho confesses to it, I sincerely hope that the priest would violate the seal to protect and possibly save my child.

For centuries, rapists, mass murderers, arsons and treasons have been protected by the seal of Confession. Every priest that violates the seal is excommunicated. Excommunicated priests can’t hear confessions or offer Mass publically. Using your logic, how long do you think it would take until there would be no priests available at all?

 

[LaSainte]

Then I propose that the priests and bishops in Ireland offer this:

They announce to the faithful that any person who confesses to this sin to a priest must, before being absolved, immediately stop the confession then and there and contact the local police. They let them know this police ahead of time–it will be posted in the newspapers, in the church bulletins, and printed up in the churches by the confessionals.

If the person refuses, the priest will excommunicate them.

Every time a person is excommunicated, the priest will send out to the local police that person’s name as ‘excommunicated’.

Now, people are not excommunicated ONLY for child abuse, but this way the priest is not abusing the seal of the confessional. Since excommunication is a public matter the priest is also not breaking any ‘rules’ by giving names to ANYBODY about a person who is excommunicated. The police will then interrogate all excommunicated people and thus, will be aware that this person is POSSIBLY guilty of abuse. I mean, even if a person actually confesses to child abuse to a priest, the person could be lying (there are some disturbed people out there) so it is still innocent until proven guilty.

Wouldn’t this solve the problem? Either the person immediately confesses to the police (with the priest as a moral support, not necessary as a witness because the person is confessing outright to the police). . .or the person knows he will be excommunicated and his name as an excommunicated person given to the police. Again, all the priest needs to say is that the person is excommunicated and leave it up to the authorities to make a case.

This is not a bad idea! I think the Church should do this worldwide when it comes to things like this. There is just so much more that we know today about psychology and psychopathic behavior, how child molesters and serial killers don’t just “turn their lives around” all of a sudden. These people are mentally ill and do not stop unless they are STOPPED.

 

[Corki]

Then I propose that the priests and bishops in Ireland offer this:

They announce to the faithful that any person who confesses to this sin to a priest must, before being absolved, immediately stop the confession then and there and contact the local police. They let them know this police ahead of time–it will be posted in the newspapers, in the church bulletins, and printed up in the churches by the confessionals.

If the person refuses, the priest will excommunicate them.

Every time a person is excommunicated, the priest will send out to the local police that person’s name as ‘excommunicated’.

Now, people are not excommunicated ONLY for child abuse, but this way the priest is not abusing the seal of the confessional. Since excommunication is a public matter the priest is also not breaking any ‘rules’ by giving names to ANYBODY about a person who is excommunicated. The police will then interrogate all excommunicated people and thus, will be aware that this person is POSSIBLY guilty of abuse. I mean, even if a person actually confesses to child abuse to a priest, the person could be lying (there are some disturbed people out there) so it is still innocent until proven guilty.

Wouldn’t this solve the problem? Either the person immediately confesses to the police (with the priest as a moral support, not necessary as a witness because the person is confessing outright to the police). . .or the person knows he will be excommunicated and his name as an excommunicated person given to the police. Again, all the priest needs to say is that the person is excommunicated and leave it up to the authorities to make a case.

A few problems with your idea:

1. Priests can’t excommunicate anyone.
2. Unless the person shows lack of contrition, the priest must finish the confession and give absolution.
3. A priest cannot make revealing oneself a condition of absolution. That is a violation of the seal too. He can probably make it part of the penance.

 

[LaSainte]

I don’t know where you live but in the US such a move would be a violation of the Constitution. The US Constitution includes freedom of Religion which means that the Government cannot interfere with the practice of religion. The particular law may protect some people but the Constitution protects religion. I do not know if there are any similar protections in Ireland.

For centuries, rapists, mass murderers, arsons and treasons have been protected by the seal of Confession. Every priest that violates the seal is excommunicated. Excommunicated priests can’t hear confessions or offer Mass publically. Using your logic, how long do you think it would take until there would be no priests available at all?

You cannot have freedom of religion when a religion systematically protects serial killers and child molesters. That has nothing to do with the freedom to worship. This is an issue of protecting the innocent.

And as many crimes as priests hear about in the confessional, I’m sure that serial murders and child molestations are few and far between. If I were a priest, I wouldn’t hesitate to protect a child even if it meant excommunication. Good thing I’m not one I guess, but if I had to leave the Church to save the life of an innocent child, I’m sure God would understand. Any parent who would honestly say that they would prefer a priest to keep the seal as opposed to saving the life of their child is sick.

 

[jay29]

You cannot have freedom of religion when a religion systematically protects serial killers and child molesters. That has nothing to do with the freedom to worship. This is an issue of protecting the innocent.

And as many crimes as priests hear about in the confessional, I’m sure that serial murders and child molestations are few and far between. If I were a priest, I wouldn’t hesitate to protect a child even if it meant excommunication. Good thing I’m not one I guess, but if I had to leave the Church to save the life of an innocent child, I’m sure God would understand. Any parent who would honestly say that they would prefer a priest to keep the seal as opposed to saving the life of their child is sick.

That’s like saying we should repeal the 2nd Amendment because it might save a kids life. Or get rid of cars because it might save a kids life.

That’s baloney. Especially when 4,000 children are aborted on average every day in the USA.

 

[LaSainte]

That’s like saying we should repeal the 2nd Amendment because it might save a kids life. Or get rid of cars because it might save a kids life.

That’s baloney. Especially when 4,000 children are aborted on average every day in the USA.

If the government protected any other religion like this, you would all be going nuts. If the government allowed Muslims not to disclose the dates and plans for suicide bombings in the U.S. If they knew about them ahead of time with no punishment under the guise of religious freedom, you would be outraged. This is such hypocrisy.

And this has NOTHING to do with abortion.

 

[jetpack_joe]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_privilege_(United_States

The priest-penitent privileged is recognized in all 50 states, and for all religions (which have priests, or other spiritual leaders at least.)

The important thing is that the penitent approaches the priest AS priest, and not as a friend or something else. The courts cannot compel a priest to reveal what a penitent told him anymore than they can compel a psychiatrist or lawyer to reveal what their clients have said.

 

[TrueLight]

Then I propose that the priests and bishops in Ireland offer this:

They announce to the faithful that any person who confesses to this sin to a priest must, before being absolved, immediately stop the confession then and there and contact the local police. They let them know this police ahead of time–it will be posted in the newspapers, in the church bulletins, and printed up in the churches by the confessionals.

If the person refuses, the priest will excommunicate them.

Every time a person is excommunicated, the priest will send out to the local police that person’s name as ‘excommunicated’.

Now, people are not excommunicated ONLY for child abuse, but this way the priest is not abusing the seal of the confessional. Since excommunication is a public matter the priest is also not breaking any ‘rules’ by giving names to ANYBODY about a person who is excommunicated. The police will then interrogate all excommunicated people and thus, will be aware that this person is POSSIBLY guilty of abuse. I mean, even if a person actually confesses to child abuse to a priest, the person could be lying (there are some disturbed people out there) so it is still innocent until proven guilty.

Wouldn’t this solve the problem? Either the person immediately confesses to the police (with the priest as a moral support, not necessary as a witness because the person is confessing outright to the police). . .or the person knows he will be excommunicated and his name as an excommunicated person given to the police. Again, all the priest needs to say is that the person is excommunicated and leave it up to the authorities to make a case.

I can’t tell if this is a sarcastic post or an actual proposal?

 

[LaSainte]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_privilege_(United_States

The priest-penitent privileged is recognized in all 50 states, and for all religions (which have priests, or other spiritual leaders at least.)

The important thing is that the penitent approaches the priest AS priest, and not as a friend or something else. The courts cannot compel a priest to reveal what a penitent told him anymore than they can compel a psychiatrist or lawyer to reveal what their clients have said.

Yes, but there is legislation pending in some states to place some restrictions on this priveledge. And no psych or lawyer is going to listen to their client say that they are going to do it again and just do nothing, well, maybe the lawyers would

The good news is that if anything like this ever affects my loved ones and I go on a massive killing spree and massacre everyone involved, I can just go to confession afterwards and not have to worry about those pesky cops.

 

[jay29]

If the government protected any other religion like this, you would all be going nuts. If the government allowed Muslims not to disclose the dates and plans for suicide bombings in the U.S. If they knew about them ahead of time with no punishment under the guise of religious freedom, you would be outraged. This is such hypocrisy. .

The law specifically targets the Catholic Church. Besides, no priest in his right mind would break the Seal no matter what kind of secular law is thrown at him.

And this has NOTHING to do with abortion

You said a priest should break the seal to save the life of a kid, yet, if you are pro-choice you have no moral grounding at all, considering abortions murder 4,000 innocents every day USA. Same goes for the government in Ireland.

 

[Corki]

You cannot have freedom of religion when a religion systematically protects serial killers and child molesters. That has nothing to do with the freedom to worship. This is an issue of protecting the innocent.

First of all, the Constitutional protection is the freedom to practice religion,not just to attend worship. The Sacrament of Confession is an essential element of the Catholic faith.

There is not “sytematic” protection of any criminal in the Confessional. The priest has no idea what any given penitent is going to confess but once the confession begins, the seal is in place. Nothing can change that.

And as many crimes as priests hear about in the confessional, I’m sure that serial murders and child molestations are few and far between. If I were a priest, I wouldn’t hesitate to protect a child even if it meant excommunication. Good thing I’m not one I guess, but if I had to leave the Church to save the life of an innocent child, I’m sure God would understand. Any parent who would honestly say that they would prefer a priest to keep the seal as opposed to saving the life of their child is sick.

Reporting past child molestation is not saving the life of a child. That’s just being dramatic.

Look over at the other thread on this same topic. Fortunately the priests in Ireland are not inclined to be pressured into breaking the seal.

There is nothing so grave that it justifies leaving the Church or for a priest to turn his back on his flock and his holy vocation.

 

[Corki]

If the government protected any other religion like this, you would all be going nuts. If the government allowed Muslims not to disclose the dates and plans for suicide bombings in the U.S. If they knew about them ahead of time with no punishment under the guise of religious freedom, you would be outraged. This is such hypocrisy.

And this has NOTHING to do with abortion.

Now that you mention it, abortion is illegal in Ireland too. I am assuming that you would be fine with a priest reporting a woman who confesses her illegal abortion too.