MERGED: New law in Ireland: priests must break Confessional seal re. abuse

[archangel04]

Sorry but this is not an attack on the Church. If this were any other religion (Muslim for example) that required their religiois heirarchy to essentially keep hidden the activities of confessed child abusers, we would be going berserk.

In fact, what if the Jews had a similar practice and that Orthodox Jewish pedophile who just kidnapped that Little boy in New York had gone to a rabbi and confessed that he had that little boy sleeping in his house? Should we be in favor of a legal system that would allow the rabbi to just sit on that information? If this had happened and the rabbi had gone to the cops, then maybe that little boy could have been saved instead of being found chopped into pieces in the guy’s kitchen.

The secular government has the right and obligation to protect these most innocent of victims, and the priests can choose to ignore the law in favor of Church teaching or to co-operate with authorities. The Irish government is doing nothing wrong here.

What an ignorant comment
What ever happen to freedom of religion? Since when does the state dictate anything about religious practices? I doubt you are Catholic right? If you are then boy do you need prayers.

 

[archangel04]

If the government protected any other religion like this, you would all be going nuts. If the government allowed Muslims not to disclose the dates and plans for suicide bombings in the U.S. If they knew about them ahead of time with no punishment under the guise of religious freedom, you would be outraged. This is such hypocrisy.

And this has NOTHING to do with abortion.

Yet the government allows muslims to build a temple on ground-zero. Something that in the eyes of muslim signifies triumph over the people they attacked. They are still protected under the constitution. Thank God you are not a priest.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Yes, but there is legislation pending in some states to place some restrictions on this priveledge. And no psych or lawyer is going to listen to their client say that they are going to do it again and just do nothing, well, maybe the lawyers would

The good news is that if anything like this ever affects my loved ones and I go on a massive killing spree and massacre everyone involved, I can just go to confession afterwards and not have to worry about those pesky cops.

I wouldn’t want to live in your proposed country. What you are proposing is similar to what happened in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, ‘the government has the right to know everything’. In those countries during the war, children were ordered to tell the local political officer if the parent(s) were listening to the wrong radio station, or just critisizing the government. The parents were then led to the death camps. It was life of oppression and no freedom of speech.

 

[Elizabeth502]

As I recall, a priest can not compel you to reveal your sins as penance. It would be an indirect way of breaking the seal of confession.

It is absolute that a priest may not put conditions upon absolution, including imbedding those conditions into a penance. The penance has to be for the moral wrong (offense against God) committed, not the legal wrong or legal consequences or opportunities. A skilled confessor, with some adroitness in counseling as well, may try to build on that mutual trust, in a totally legitimate way, in the hope that such trust (the letting down of defenses) will independently encourage disclosure by the pentitent to the authorities, out of more comprehensive guilt and owned responsibility. But no explicit demand or pressure can be made. So paradoxically, a result of turning oneself in would arise from the very confidence by the pentitent in the absolute confidentiality which prompted him to reveal his deeds in the first place.

 

[Spirithound]

New law coming in saying that priests will face upto 5 years in jail if they dont report abuse, even in the Confessional…

I wonder how the government intends to enforce this law. Unless they bug the confessional, there is no way to know exactly what was said. And if they do bug the confessional, they do not need the priest.

 

[ProVobis]

It is absolute that a priest may not put conditions upon absolution, including imbedding those conditions into a penance. The penance has to be for the moral wrong (offense against God) committed, not the legal wrong or legal consequences or opportunities.

I sometimes wonder about that. How valid a confession would it be if I simply confess that I stole money without any intention of giving it back? Certainly that should be common sense and the priest shouldn’t have to tell you to make the proper restitution. Why put him in the uneasy position where he has to tell you to take the necessary steps, avoid lying to the authorities, or making good with the victims of your crimes?

 

[LaSainte]

What an ignorant comment
What ever happen to freedom of religion? Since when does the state dictate anything about religious practices? I doubt you are Catholic right? If you are then boy do you need prayers.

Yes, I’m Catholic. And you don’t have kids right? Because if you do, then boy do YOU need prayers.

I love how TWICE I have mentioned that poor boy in NYC who was just murdered and found hacked up on trash bags and it didn’t elicit even he slightest response from anyone. How telling.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?

And you would honestly say that he priest in this scenario would have no culpability? And the Orthodox Jews in the neighborhood who knew this man was a pedophile but preferred to handle it in their own way according to their religious community’s traditions? They are all innocent too no doubt.

And any Muslim mother who knows that her son is planning a terrorist attack to kill thousands of people but prefers to handle it according to Muslim laws and norms as opposed to going to the authorities. I suppose she’s not culpable at all either.

Sometimes I think God must just shrug His shoulders and wonder what the hell people are thinking, as if Jesus would have sat back and let an 8 year old get raped and murdered to protect the seal of confession. Common sense people.

Personally, since pedophelia is a KNOWN mental illness for which there is NO CURE, and nearly ALL pedophiles have more than one victim, I think that not being willing to either turn oneself in or check into a mental health facility on the spot should automatically be seen as a lack of contrition on the part of the penitent, and absolution should be denied at the very least.

 

[LaSainte]

Yet the government allows muslims to build a temple on ground-zero. Something that in the eyes of muslim signifies triumph over the people they attacked. They are still protected under the constitution. Thank God you are not a priest.

Ummm, it’s called a mosque.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, I’m Catholic. And you don’t have kids right? Because if you do, then boy do YOU need prayers.

I love how TWICE I have mentioned that poor boy in NYC who was just murdered and found hacked up on trash bags and it didn’t elicit even he slightest response from anyone. How telling.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

Can you post a link to information that he was a known pedophile? The last time I read the news, I read he was quiet but weird.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?
.

You bring up good points, but remove the seal of the confessional and you won’t have anyone confessing. Who knows how many people have confessed their crimes through the Holy Spirit and the intercession of the priest.

Either the seal is intact or it is not. If laws are passed that insist that the seal can be broken in the case of crimes, as others pointed out, no one will be confessing crimes unless they use the confessional as a way of turning themselves in.

By the way, I have kids and my heart is broken for this poor boy and his family.

This criminal confessed but supposed he didn’t? Do you think the family would expect his lawyer to reveal that he had done it? No, because of attorney-client privilege.

Neither should one expect one’s priest to reveal a confession.

 

[Corki]

Personally, since pedophelia is a KNOWN mental illness for which there is NO CURE, and nearly ALL pedophiles have more than one victim, I think that not being willing to either turn oneself in or check into a mental health facility on the spot should automatically be seen as a lack of contrition on the part of the penitent, and absolution should be denied at the very least.

I think there are some flaws in your rationale here.

1. Not all child abuse is due to pedophelia.
2. Not all pedophelia is of the level of being a mental illness
3. When mental illness is involved, culpability if reduced. Absolution could not be withheld in the case of mental illness. In fact mental illness would mitigate culpability and would probably make absolution unnecessary.
4. Even though pedopheia has a high rate of reviticism, it is no where near an absoute that a person who has abused a child will do so again.

 

[Corki]

I sometimes wonder about that. How valid a confession would it be if I simply confess that I stole money without any intention of giving it back? Certainly that should be common sense and the priest shouldn’t have to tell you to make the proper restitution. Why put him in the uneasy position where he has to tell you to take the necessary steps, avoid lying to the authorities, or making good with the victims of your crimes?

The priest needs to determine if the penitent is contrite. Not intending to give the money back *could *be an indicator of lack of contrition but not necessarily. Someone could be contrite but fear the consequences of being exposed, wish to avoid distress to his family or any number of other reasons. The priest alone can determine if the person has contrition. In any case, the priest can’t give you a penance that requires you to expose your sin to others.

 

[Skeptic92]

Many people would say that when the “valid practice of religion” leads to the protection of known pedophiles who are almost certain to go on raping and molesting children because of an incurable mental illness, that this most certainly deprives their underage victims of freedom.

Hey, collateral damage though right? This thread is vomit-inducing.

Your ignorance is Bliss, do you understand the Sacrament of Reconciliation at all? The Priest has no right to repeat what was said, as he is acting in persona Christi, the Penitent has not confessed to the Priest, but to God through the Priest by which the words of Absolution are spoken and we are forgiven. If the Priest breaks that Seal, he is revealing what God and the Penitent alone have the right to repeat, no matter what is confessed, any attempt to force a Priest to break this seal, would actually be breaking the European Convention of Human Rights, as it is breaking the Priests freedom of Religion (specifically to practice), and Canon Law is recognized by Europe, no Priest is summoned into a court to testify with evidence from the confessional, and employers HAVE to allow you to attend Mass on Sundays, if they fire you because you require time off for religious observance, they’ll be before the Supreme Court faster then the Banks crashed.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?

The Priest (no matter how hard it will weigh on him), can not break the seal, what do YOU expect a Priest to do when he is bound by the Laws of God, and the Church explicitly states that he may NOT repeat anything learnt in the confessional, without incurring excommunication and a Canonical trial, in which he will probably be ordered (sentenced) to a life time of solitude, and he may only begin exercising any ministry at all if his excommunication is lifted (which may not be for a very long time, if ever). What is more important, settling the hunger of secular authorities, or abiding by the Laws of God.

 

[LaSainte]

Can you post a link to information that he was a known pedophile? The last time I read the news, I read he was quiet but weird.

You bring up good points, but remove the seal of the confessional and you won’t have anyone confessing. Who knows how many people have confessed their crimes through the Holy Spirit and the intercession of the priest.

Either the seal is intact or it is not. If laws are passed that insist that the seal can be broken in the case of crimes, as others pointed out, no one will be confessing crimes unless they use the confessional as a way of turning themselves in.

By the way, I have kids and my heart is broken for this poor boy and his family.

This criminal confessed but supposed he didn’t? Do you think the family would expect his lawyer to reveal that he had done it? No, because of attorney-client privilege.

Neither should one expect one’s priest to reveal a confession.

failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/07/levi-aron-tried-to-lure-another-haredi-boy-into-car-police-say-567.html

Apparently, he had tried to lure another boy into his car but the mother failed to report it.

Believe me people, I understand the seal of the confessional, but SOMETHING has to be done to protect children.

I think the Vatican needs to think long and hard about a way to help these children without violating the seal if at all possible. How many priests who were pedophiles do you think went to confession many times and just continued to abuse child after child for years, creating more abusers in the long run, driving these people to suicide, etc.?

In medieval times, we didn’t understand anything about mental illness. If you weren’t foaming at the mouth, you were fine. We didn’t understand the psychology of abusers and psychopathic killers. In those days, it was safe to give the contrite the benefit of the doubt be quad it was understood that they could simply turn their lives around by their own free will. We understand now that this is not the case. A child molestor or a serial killer can’t just “stop” because they say an Act of Contrition and a few Our Fathers.

How would any of you feel if your child was murdered because someone didn’t want to break the seal of the confessional? What can be done to protect these children while keeping the seal intact? The Vatican needs to figure this out.

 

[TrueLight]

failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/07/levi-aron-tried-to-lure-another-haredi-boy-into-car-police-say-567.html

Apparently, he had tried to lure another boy into his car but the mother failed to report it.

Thanks. I forgot I had read that. That’s different from him being a KNOWN pedophile and sheltered by the community. The mom did the right thing. She reported it. I guess the police didn’t have enough to do anything about it.

I don’t know what the answer is, but if you believe in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I don’t see how it can be anything than what it is.

 

[LaSainte]

Your ignorance is Bliss, do you understand the Sacrament of Reconciliation at all? The Priest has no right to repeat what was said, as he is acting in persona Christi, the Penitent has not confessed to the Priest, but to God through the Priest by which the words of Absolution are spoken and we are forgiven. If the Priest breaks that Seal, he is revealing what God and the Penitent alone have the right to repeat, no matter what is confessed, any attempt to force a Priest to break this seal, would actually be breaking the European Convention of Human Rights, as it is breaking the Priests freedom of Religion (specifically to practice), and Canon Law is recognized by Europe, no Priest is summoned into a court to testify with evidence from the confessional, and employers HAVE to allow you to attend Mass on Sundays, if they fire you because you require time off for religious observance, they’ll be before the Supreme Court faster then the Banks crashed.

Personally, I want my government protecting its citizens, which is why it exists in the first place. If a priest is willing to go to jail to protect the seal of the confessional, then so be it. I shudder to think that there are serial killers out there confessing after each and every horrific murder, absolved and out on the streets to kill again. What about the victims’ right to be forgiven of their sins, but no, they are cut down with all of their sin squarely on their heads with no chance for reconciliation with God while some lunatic goes around from priest to priest gaining absolution. If this is the way the Church wants it, fine. But I don’t want my government to be a part of it.

I understand that you say this is God’s law, but nothing about confession anywhere from divine revelation indicates this level of secrecy regarding confession. And I have a hard time thinking that Jesus would just sit back after hearing a confession and allow a boy to be raped and murdered. He would figure out a way to stop it.

 

[LaSainte]

Thanks. I forgot I had read that. That’s different from him being a KNOWN pedophile and sheltered by the community. The mom did the right thing. She reported it. I guess the police didn’t have enough to do anything about it.

I don’t know what the answer is, but if you believe in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I don’t see how it can be anything than what it is.

I can’t find the article now, but another article I read did say that his proclivities were known throughout the community and just ignored. If I find it I will post it.

I can’t help but think there is some way to help protect people without violating the seal. If I were a priest, I would become that person’s shadow.

 

[Skeptic92]

Personally, I want my government protecting its citizens, which is why it exists in the first place. If a priest is willing to go to jail to protect the seal of the confessional, then so be it. I shudder to think that there are serial killers out there confessing after each and every horrific murder, absolved and out on the streets to kill again. What about the victims’ right to be forgiven of their sins, but no, they are cut down with all of their sin squarely on their heads with no chance for reconciliation with God while some lunatic goes around from priest to priest gaining absolution. If this is the way the Church wants it, fine. But I don’t want my government to be a part of it.

Then the Government is guilty of religious discrimination, as it forces Priests to break their obligations and their freedom to exercise their ministry and religion (which is a Human Right as defined by Europe), the Irish government would be breaking so many European Laws it will send them bankrupt (as they are almost anyway), going head to head with the Catholic Church is not a smart idea, it will end up before the ECHR or the UN.

I don’t want your government trying to discriminate against A religion just because it’s the “in thing” to do, the Irish government knows the bill wont hold up in Europe, even if it does it’s an attacked directly against the Vatican, and it will end up before the UN, Ireland can’t afford that, either the Press, or the Monetary fines they would get for such a blatant attack on a single religion (and member state of the UN).

This is just a secularist attack on the Church, NO Catholic (which you said you are) can support this move, as it means their will be soon be no priests to exercise ministry in Ireland, as the Government will either haul them all off to Prison (which I bet the secularists in Europe would love that) or they will be excommunicated and defrocked by the Vatican.

How about this, I have confessed things I have done that are breaking the Law, I can serve Prison time for them, however I repented and confessed, however your rationale is that the Priest should of reported me, why would I have confessed then? As all you get is judgement from the secular society, and not the forgiveness of God, I went to the Sacrament for forgiveness from God, not to then be sent to Prison for my crimes which I have repented with a contrite heart while seeking forgiveness, but you believe then all those that confess to breaking the Law should be reported? then you truly don’t have any idea of the Sacrament of Reconciliation and why the Priest does not have the authority or right to reveal what has been said.

 

[TrueLight]

How about this, I have confessed things I have done that are breaking the Law, I can serve Prison time for them, however I repented and confessed, however your rationale is that the Priest should of reported me, why would I have confessed then? As all you get is judgement from the secular society, and not the forgiveness of God, I went to the Sacrament for forgiveness from God, not to then be sent to Prison for my crimes which I have repented with a contrite heart while seeking forgiveness, but you believe then all those that confess to breaking the Law should be reported? then you truly don’t have any idea of the Sacrament of Reconciliation and why the Priest does not have the authority or right to reveal what has been said.

I don’t believe the priest should report you.

If you stole a loaf of bread, I wouldn’t expect you to go back to the store a year later and confess, necessarily.

But if you took a life, or raped someone, or beat someone into a coma, and are truly contrite, hopefully you would be open enough to the the Holy Spirit to make reparation by turning yourself in.

 

[GEddie]

I can’t find the article now, but another article I read did say that his proclivities were known throughout the community and just ignored. If I find it I will post it.

I can’t help but think there is some way to help protect people without violating the seal. If I were a priest, I would become that person’s shadow.

That’s not practical either. Priests are the most overscheduled and heavily burdened persons in North America (probably worse in IRL). Between saying Mass, confession, tending to hospital patients and prisoners, liturgical and parochial minutia, marriage counseling, etc, etc, etc, they have barely enough time to maintain their own prayer life let alone act as an unpaid detective.

God never said that all justice would be fulfilled in this world. The robbers outside Jericho in the Good Samaritan incident were never brought to justice. That is what death and Purgatory are for.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[LaSainte]

And I don’t like saying this, but part of the reason the Catholic Church scandals have gotten SO out of control is this idea of secrecy and protecting priests who probably confessed their crimes again and again only to be absolved and sent on their way. I’m sure they were all very contrite at the time. Now the Church is reaping the results of this in a very serious way. There has to be a happy medium here. Again, I would say that if a person who is a serious pedophile is not willing to turn himself into police or go into a mental health facility, he does not have the proper contrition because he is not willing to take the necessary steps to protect his future victims. Well over 50% of child molesters have more than one victim. In fact, over 50% will repeat their offences after getting out of prison, to say nothing of those whO are never caught to begin with.