MERGED: New law in Ireland: priests must break Confessional seal re. abuse

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The problem is that this law makes it sound like Ireland would be a utopia without the Church.
Are the priests required to tell law enforcement about a confessed murder, theft, attempted suicide, burglary, vandalism? If they really wanted to make Ireland what they perceive as a paradise, why not confess all sins?
 
Does this law require that anyone at all who knows about abuse, say a wife, a neighbor, a lawyer, a bartender, another child in the house, etc. also must report abuse or got to jail? Or is it just priests who face jail for not saying anything?
From Catholic News:

*The Irish government said it would introduce legislation that makes it mandatory for priests to reveal details of child abuse, even if they become known in the confessional. The offense is punishable with up to five years in prison.

The announcement came after a judicial commission investigating the Diocese of Cloyne revealed July 13 that allegations of abuse were being mishandled and withheld from the police as recently as 2008.*

It’s a political move. Doubt it will pass. it’s the kind of thing that gets people all worked up, which is what the politicians want, actually. “See, we’re being tough on crime!”

Having said that, however, if the Church bureaucracy had better protocols in place about when and how to bring law enforcement in when cases of child abuse were known or suspected, this whole thing would be a non-issue. Just sayin’.
 
Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.

We also know that a Vatican official has come out and said that not only should priests who confess this crime in the confessional NOT be reported to their superiors or to the police, but that the confessor himself should not even ENCOURAGE the offender himself to notify his superiors or the police of his activities.
uscatholic.org/news/2010/03/vatican-official-urges-confidentiality-confessors-sex-abuse-sins

Do the math.
This Vatican official was just reiterating the practice of Sacramental Confesion. You should not be surprized or upset by this.
  1. Contents of Confession cannot be revealed to anyone.
  2. The Confessor cannot do anything to reveal the penitent, including pressuring the penitent to reveal him/herself.
What the Confessor **can do **is to encourage the penitent to get help that will support his resolve to ammend his life.
 
Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.

And your point? Is this not a good thing?

We also know that a Vatican official has come out and said that not only should priests who confess this crime in the confessional NOT be reported to their superiors or to the police, but that the confessor himself should not even ENCOURAGE the offender himself to notify his superiors or the police of his activities.
uscatholic.org/news/2010/03/vatican-official-urges-confidentiality-confessors-sex-abuse-sins

Right, the seal cannot be broken. If need be, absolution should be withheld

Do the math.

**What Math? I just see two illogical statements asking me to make an equally illogical connection between them. **
 
One also wonders how the Irish authorities can prove that a pedophile confessed his abuse to a priest. The most they could come up with, I would think, is the pedophile’s word against the priest. What standards as regards proof, reasonable doubt, etc, do Irish courts require?

Unless, of course, they intend to conduct some kind of “sting operation.” I shudder at the very thought.
 
Exactly. Even if the priests go along, the law will do nothing to protect children. It’s just an exercise to make it **look like **the government is doing something.

Future Confession scenario:

Preist
(walking into police station: I need to report an incident of child abuse as I am required to by law.

Police: Thank you for coming, Father. How did you come to know about this?

Priest: It was confessed to me.

Police: When was this?

Priest: Yesterday; I hear Confessions every Saturday.

Police: Who was the abuser?

Priest: I don’t know the name. Confession is anonymous.

Police: What did he look like? Could you pick him out of a mug book?

Priest: I couldn’t see the face in the Confessional.

Police: Well, it was a man, right?

Priest: I think so but I couldn’t be certain. The voice sounded mostly male.

Police Well, who was the victim?

Priest: The penitent did not say the victim’s name?

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, Confession is about the sinner.

Police: Was the victim a boy or girl?

Priest: I am not sure.

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, it’s just as sinful to abuse a boy as a girl.

Police: When did this crime occur?

Priest I don’t really know. The penitent said he last went to Confession five years ago so it was probably sometime in the last five years.

Police: Where did it occur? I need to make sure this is handled by the proper jurisdiction.

Priest: That wasn’t mentioned.

Police: Did you excommunicate him for this horrible crime?

Priest: No, I have no authority to excommunicate anyone.

Police: Well, thank you Father. We are so happy that you came to us so we can save the children of Ireland.
Exactlly!!! Well said! :)🙂
 
Yes, I’m Catholic. And you don’t have kids right? Because if you do, then boy do YOU need prayers.

I love how TWICE I have mentioned that poor boy in NYC who was just murdered and found hacked up on trash bags and it didn’t elicit even he slightest response from anyone. How telling.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?

And you would honestly say that he priest in this scenario would have no culpability? And the Orthodox Jews in the neighborhood who knew this man was a pedophile but preferred to handle it in their own way according to their religious community’s traditions? They are all innocent too no doubt.

And any Muslim mother who knows that her son is planning a terrorist attack to kill thousands of people but prefers to handle it according to Muslim laws and norms as opposed to going to the authorities. I suppose she’s not culpable at all either.

Sometimes I think God must just shrug His shoulders and wonder what the hell people are thinking, as if Jesus would have sat back and let an 8 year old get raped and murdered to protect the seal of confession. Common sense people.

Personally, since pedophelia is a KNOWN mental illness for which there is NO CURE, and nearly ALL pedophiles have more than one victim, I think that not being willing to either turn oneself in or check into a mental health facility on the spot should automatically be seen as a lack of contrition on the part of the penitent, and absolution should be denied at the very least.
You know not everyone faces the priest when they confess, so many times the priest doesnt even know who that person is. Secon, no I don’t have kids, that’s up to God when the time is right and that’s if it’s his will not mine. Anyone who is orthodox Catholic would know not even to mess with the sacrament of confession. I may not have children but I have many loves ones who are that age. Your view of thinking are those that are pretty rare. Most likely anyone commiting these crimes would not confess let alone even go to confession. It’s like someone else said, cars kill people wether they get run over or involved in an accident, should we banned vehicles? People drown in pools, should we banned personal pools? Isam has been taking and distorted and used as an excuse to kills thousands of people, should we lead a crusade around the world and end Islam?
 
Yes, I’m Catholic. And you don’t have kids right? Because if you do, then boy do YOU need prayers.

I love how TWICE I have mentioned that poor boy in NYC who was just murdered and found hacked up on trash bags and it didn’t elicit even he slightest response from anyone. How telling.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?

And you would honestly say that he priest in this scenario would have no culpability? And the Orthodox Jews in the neighborhood who knew this man was a pedophile but preferred to handle it in their own way according to their religious community’s traditions? They are all innocent too no doubt.

And any Muslim mother who knows that her son is planning a terrorist attack to kill thousands of people but prefers to handle it according to Muslim laws and norms as opposed to going to the authorities. I suppose she’s not culpable at all either.

Sometimes I think God must just shrug His shoulders and wonder what the hell people are thinking, as if Jesus would have sat back and let an 8 year old get raped and murdered to protect the seal of confession. Common sense people.

Personally, since pedophelia is a KNOWN mental illness for which there is NO CURE, and nearly ALL pedophiles have more than one victim, I think that not being willing to either turn oneself in or check into a mental health facility on the spot should automatically be seen as a lack of contrition on the part of the penitent, and absolution should be denied at the very least.
As cold hearted as it sounds, that boy would most likely be alive if he didn’t get into a stranger’s car. It isn’t because a known pedophile was walking the streets.
 
As cold hearted as it sounds, that boy would most likely be alive if he didn’t get into a stranger’s car. It isn’t because a known pedophile was walking the streets.
It does sound cold-hearted. What is your point?

He was 8!

If grown men and women can be duped by serial killers like Ted Bundy, an 8 year old can make a mistake when he is lost and uncertain and someone is offering to help him.
:mad:
 
As cold hearted as it sounds, that boy would most likely be alive if he didn’t get into a stranger’s car. It isn’t because a known pedophile was walking the streets.
Yeah, it does sound cold-hearted, and decidedly un-Christian. let’s not start blaming victims here. That little boy, indeed all victims who suffer fates like his, die because they rolled lottery odds and crossed paths with a predator. Their predators bear 100% ofthe blame, not them.
 
Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.
If these criminals are already coming forward and confessing to the police, why interfere with the Sacrament of Confession?
You know as well as I that a good number of those priests who molested children confessed it to another priest.
I hope so! Whenever someone does something wrong, we should hope with all our hearts that they confess it in the Sacrament and receive absolution and healing.
 
It does sound cold-hearted. What is your point?

He was 8!

If grown men and women can be duped by serial killers like Ted Bundy, an 8 year old can make a mistake when he is lost and uncertain and someone is offering to help him.
:mad:
👍👍
 
That little boy, indeed all victims who suffer fates like his, die because they rolled lottery odds and crossed paths with a predator. Their predators bear 100% ofthe blame, not them.
Amen!! 🙂
 
It does sound cold-hearted. What is your point?

He was 8!

If grown men and women can be duped by serial killers like Ted Bundy, an 8 year old can make a mistake when he is lost and uncertain and someone is offering to help him.
:mad:
My point is that the case is being brought up a lot in order to defend this law. Eight-year-old’s should know that you don’t, under any circumstances, get into a strangers car.
 
My point is that the case is being brought up a lot in order to defend this law. Eight-year-old’s should know that you don’t, under any circumstances, get into a strangers car.
This inability to empathize is the same trait found in sociopaths.
 
This inability to empathize is the same trait found in sociopaths.
What you are expecting is not empathy but maudlin emotion: “Oh no, this CHILD has died, and pedophilia was involved, and the Catholic church has pedophiles, so we must end the seal of confession!”

Maudlin emotion has never solved anything, in fact, there is no solving human death.

The fact is, there will always be some child who takes rides from strangers, and some who will suffer because of it. Even adults have been victimized as a result of hitch-hiking. We human beings have fallible wisdom circuits.

But religion was in no way a factor in the New York case, and so to make a connection between it and sacramental confession is a logical fallacy.

ICXC NIKA
 
Yes, I’m Catholic. And you don’t have kids right? Because if you do, then boy do YOU need prayers.

I love how TWICE I have mentioned that poor boy in NYC who was just murdered and found hacked up on trash bags and it didn’t elicit even he slightest response from anyone. How telling.

This man was an Orthodox Jew, and the community was aware that he was a pedophile. Being a tight-knit religious community, they never went to the cops about it. Now a boy is dead because a known pedophile was allowed to roam the streets. This is what happens.

What if he had been Catholic? What if he had gone to confession and confessed that he had this boy tied up in his house while he went to work that day and then been sent on his way by the priest only to murder this boy that evening?
Isn’t actual contrition necessary for a confession to be vaild and recieve absolution? If a pedophile has a kid tied up in his house, he hasn’t really turned away from sin, now has he? How contrite can he be if he hasn’t let the child go? Real repentance bears fruit. If the confession isn’t vaild can the priest go to the police then; or does it not matter whether it’s vaild or not because it’s still a confession either way?
 
Show me where in this thread I agreed with the OP regarding breaking the seal of the confessional? If you read the whole thread, you would see I was actually disagreeing with him.

However, it is not okay to imply that it is the child’s fault for being taken and hacked to pieces.

And that needs to be said.
What you are expecting is not empathy but maudlin emotion: “Oh no, this CHILD has died, and pedophilia was involved, and the Catholic church has pedophiles, so we must end the seal of confession!”

Maudlin emotion has never solved anything, in fact, there is no solving human death.

The fact is, there will always be some child who takes rides from strangers, and some who will suffer because of it. Even adults have been victimized as a result of hitch-hiking. We human beings have fallible wisdom circuits.

But religion was in no way a factor in the New York case, and so to make a connection between it and sacramental confession is a logical fallacy.

ICXC NIKA
 
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