MERGED: New law in Ireland: priests must break Confessional seal re. abuse

[MissRose73]

That is so wrong to make priests break that Seal of the Confessional if someone admits to committing any type of crime. The priest can advise the person to turn himself into the police but cannot say to the police in any way, the person told me they have done xyz.

 

[GEddie]

And I don’t like saying this, but part of the reason the Catholic Church scandals have gotten SO out of control is this idea of secrecy and protecting priests who probably confessed their crimes again and again only to be absolved and sent on their way. I’m sure they were all very contrite at the time. Now the Church is reaping the results of this in a very serious way. There has to be a happy medium here. Again, I would say that if a person who is a serious pedophile is not willing to turn himself into police or go into a mental health facility, he does not have the proper contrition because he is not willing to take the necessary steps to protect his future victims. Well over 50% of child molesters have more than one victim. In fact, over 50% will repeat their offences after getting out of prison, to say nothing of those whO are never caught to begin with.

Offenders of this type are routinely murdered in the prison system. You can’t expect someone to give themself up to death as a condition of forgiveness. They wouldn’t confess under those conditions.

Everybody brings up the pedophile thing as a reason to modify the Church. But the Church has survived much worse before, and will do so again. Churchmen gone bad were already old-hat in Dante’s time.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[LaSainte]

That’s not practical either. Priests are the most overscheduled and heavily burdened persons in North America (probably worse in IRL). Between saying Mass, confession, tending to hospital patients and prisoners, liturgical and parochial minutia, marriage counseling, etc, etc, etc, they have barely enough time to maintain their own prayer life let alone act as an unpaid detective.

God never said that all justice would be fulfilled in this world. The robbers outside Jericho in the Good Samaritan incident were never brought to justice. That is what death and Purgatory are for.

ICXC NIKA.

Why can we Carholics never expect any kind of justice or happiness or anything even remotely close here on Earth? Whenever there is a horrible and unjust situation, we are just expected to shrug our shoulders and say “Oh well, it will be better in Heaven”, to say nothing of our obligation to make the world a better place.

 

[LaSainte]

Offenders of this type are routinely murdered in the prison system. You can’t expect someone to give themself up to death as a condition of forgiveness. They wouldn’t confess under those conditions.

Everybody brings up the pedophile thing as a reason to modify the Church. But the Church has survived much worse before, and will do so again. Churchmen gone bad were already old-hat in Dante’s time.

ICXC NIKA.

Who cares if they get murdered in prison? Better than them murdering someone else. As you said, they can be happy with God’s justice in Heaven. Nobody ever said being a Catholic was easy. Isn’t that exactly the kind of faith that we as Catholics are called to? A mother who will die of a ruptured uterus if she gets pregnant again is still required not to use contraception and to put her life in God’s hands. Insee no difference here.

 

[LaSainte]

I have heard it on this site nearly every time someone I am debating gets into a tight spot. Every issue can be and often is brought back to this very concept.

 

[Pug]

New law coming in saying that priests will face upto 5 years in jail if they dont report abuse, even in the Confessional…

And Ireland thought the last government were bad…

Does this law require that anyone at all who knows about abuse, say a wife, a neighbor, a lawyer, a bartender, another child in the house, etc. also must report abuse or got to jail? Or is it just priests who face jail for not saying anything?

 

[LaSainte]

Offenders of this type are routinely murdered in the prison system. You can’t expect someone to give themself up to death as a condition of forgiveness. They wouldn’t confess under those conditions.

Everybody brings up the pedophile thing as a reason to modify the Church. But the Church has survived much worse before, and will do so again. Churchmen gone bad were already old-hat in Dante’s time.

ICXC NIKA.

Really? Because I don’t remember a circle of hell reserved for priests who rape kids in the Inferno…

 

[GEddie]

Why can we Carholics never expect any kind of justice or happiness or anything even remotely close here on Earth? Whenever there is a horrible and unjust situation, we are just expected to shrug our shoulders and say “Oh well, it will be better in Heaven”, to say nothing of our obligation to make the world a better place.

Punishing wrongdoing was not Christ’s mission (in his human body). Nor is it the Church’s mission, which became HIS earthly body. It is the civil state’s mission, whether that state is IRL, or a US state. We do not expect the civil state to do the church’s job. The Church should not be made to do the state’s.

Consider our LORD and the adulteress. Does adultery cause harm? Sure it does. But our LORD did not tell her to go forth and let her husband punish her. That might have happened outside the Scripture, but not by HIS command.

Some wrongs cannot be corrected, some losses cannot be compensated. That’s just human life.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[LaSainte]

Punishing wrongdoing was not Christ’s mission (in his human body). Nor is it the Church’s mission, which became HIS earthly body. It is the civil state’s mission, whether that state is IRL, or a US state. We do not expect the civil state to do the church’s job. The Church should not be made to do the state’s.

Consider our LORD and the adulteress. Does adultery cause harm? Sure it does. But our LORD did not tell her to go forth and let her husband punish her. That might have happened outside the Scripture, but not by HIS command.

Some wrongs cannot be corrected, some losses cannot be compensated. That’s just human life.

ICXC NIKA.

This is SO not about punishing wrongdoing. I couldn’t care less if pedophiles are punished. What I care about is getting them off the streets and protecting children.

 

[GEddie]

Really? Because I don’t remember a circle of hell reserved for priests who rape kids in the Inferno…

I didn’t mean that particular sin. There may in fact have been less of that sin then, because (a) there was no “youth” culture in the general society then, so there were no youth ministries requiring priests to spend lots of time with kids, and (b) the separation between the clergy and the people was wider, so such things if they occurred might never have come to light.

But otherwise, priests who sinned take up a lot of ink in the Inferno.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Jennifer_J]

This is SO not about punishing wrongdoing. I couldn’t care less if pedophiles are punished. What I care about is getting them off the streets and protecting children.

This “law” will do none of that for various reasons. It’s easy enough for confessions to be behind a screen, ie anonymous. This “law” is about punishing the Catholic Church in Ireland. It is grandstanding by people who think religion is stupid. It will do nothing to get anyone off the street.

 

[kimmielittle]

failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/07/levi-aron-tried-to-lure-another-haredi-boy-into-car-police-say-567.html

Apparently, he had tried to lure another boy into his car but the mother failed to report it.

Hmmm a link by Failedmessiah states

Paul J. Browne, the chief spokesman for the Police Department] said a woman who lives on the same block as Mr. Aron had told authorities that Mr. Aron had once approached her son; exactly when was not clear. Her son told her that Mr. Aron had tried to lure him into his car. She put the encounter out of her mind until she heard about the killing, Mr. Browne said.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmarya_Rosenberg

nytimes.com/2010/01/09/us/09religion.html?scp=1&sq=shmarya&st=cse

cjr.org/the_news_frontier_database/2011/05/failedmessiahcom.php#

I’m not going to call this source a gossip monger or muckraker …but many have.

Believe me people, I understand the seal of the confessional, but SOMETHING has to be done to protect children.

And braking the seal will do something to protect children?

Can you reference as evidence, just how many Priests have heard confessions about child abuse and how braking the seal would help?

Before you can have a “fix” for a problem - there needs to be identification “Of” a problem.

IMO this “fix” throws confession as the problem - BUT no evidence of such has emerged.

If confession is sealed now - how does one prove confession is the culprit? ]

What HAS emerged is NOT the problem of confession… but the problems in administration.

I think the Vatican needs to think long and hard about a way to help these children

I think it has…maybe, not to some peoples liking. BUT the statement above, is just nonsensical…

How would any of you feel if your child was murdered because someone didn’t want to break the seal of the confessional?

Again, prove the seal of confession is the culprit. You can’t …because the seal is intact.

Appeals to sympathy are fallacies in logic - when they miss the culprit.

The culprit is / was bad administration practices of some.

AGAIN, Attack the problem…not some made-up culprit.

I hope this helps.

 

[GEddie]

Who cares if they get murdered in prison?

They do, and they will simply not confess if that is likely to be the outcome.

Better than them murdering someone else.

False dichotomy, as most pedophiles or abusers do not murder.

ICXC NIKA

 

[LaSainte]

They do, and they will simply not confess if that is likely to be the outcome.

False dichotomy, as most pedophiles or abusers do not murder.

ICXC NIKA

I would rather see a pedophile dead than abuse, molest or kill an innocent child. I personally would rather BE dead than abuse, molest or kill an innocent child, and ANY contrite Catholoc child molester should CERTAINLY be able to say the same.

 

[LaSainte]

Hmmm a link by Failedmessiah states

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmarya_Rosenberg

nytimes.com/2010/01/09/us/09religion.html?scp=1&sq=shmarya&st=cse

cjr.org/the_news_frontier_database/2011/05/failedmessiahcom.php#

I’m not going to call this source a gossip monger or muckraker …but many have.

And braking the seal will do something to protect children?

Can you reference as evidence, just how many Priests have heard confessions about child abuse and how braking the seal would help?

Before you can have a “fix” for a problem - there needs to be identification “Of” a problem.

IMO this “fix” throws confession as the problem - BUT no evidence of such has emerged.

If confession is sealed now - how does one prove confession is the culprit? ]

What HAS emerged is NOT the problem of confession… but the problems in administration.

I think it has…maybe, not to some peoples liking. BUT the statement above, is just nonsensical…

Again, prove the seal of confession is the culprit. You can’t …because the seal is intact.

Appeals to sympathy are fallacies in logic - when they miss the culprit.

The culprit is / was bad administration practices of some.

AGAIN, Attack the problem…not some made-up culprit.

I hope this helps.

You know as well as I that a good number of those priests who molested children confessed it to another priest. To say “Well we don’t know that because of the seal of the confessional” is deflecting and frankly, a load of bull.

 

[kimmielittle]

You know as well as I that a good number of those priests who molested children confessed it to another priest. To say “Well we don’t know that because of the seal of the confessional” is deflecting and frankly, a load of bull.

No, we do not know that as a fact.

Please give your evidence to it…not subjective speculation.

We DO know that the world of pedophiles is a very secretive world. Their whole MO is shrouded in secrecy. That is part of the “trill” , to them.

Please offer evidence that it is confession NOT administration practices that is the culprit.

If you can’t / won’t - your argument is speculation only…and reading past posts - becomes highly subjective.

IN fact: We know of NO Priest who has confessed…in the confessional.
We know of NO instance of a Priest hiding another Priest from the Confessional.

 

[LaSainte]

No, we do not know that as a fact.

Please give your evidence to it…not subjective speculation.

We DO know that the world of pedophiles is a very secretive world. Their whole MO is shrouded in secrecy. That is part of the “trill” , to them.

Please offer evidence that it is confession NOT administration practices that is the culprit.

If you can’t / won’t - your argument is speculation only…and reading past posts - becomes highly subjective.

IN fact: We know of NO Priest who has confessed…in the confessional.
We know of NO instance of a Priest hiding another Priest from the Confessional.

Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.

We also know that a Vatican official has come out and said that not only should priests who confess this crime in the confessional NOT be reported to their superiors or to the police, but that the confessor himself should not even ENCOURAGE the offender himself to notify his superiors or the police of his activities.
uscatholic.org/news/2010/03/vatican-official-urges-confidentiality-confessors-sex-abuse-sins

Do the math.

 

[Skeptic92]

Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.

We also know that a Vatican official has come out and said that not only should priests who confess this crime in the confessional NOT be reported to their superiors or to the police, but that the confessor himself should not even ENCOURAGE the offender himself to notify his superiors or the police of his activities.
uscatholic.org/news/2010/03/vatican-official-urges-confidentiality-confessors-sex-abuse-sins

Do the math.

Right point 1, there aren’t many, many priests that have confessed or been convicted of Child abuse, it’s always the same names, secular media loves anything that down credits the Church but guess what I can pull up, to show just how “effective” secular society has been in controlling pedophiles

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344630/Little-Stars-Nursery-Nechells-child-abuse-worker-picture.html
guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/15/vanessa-george-jailed-child-sex-abuse

The second one, Vanessa George, (estimated she abused around 30 children, or more, no definite number was ever given, but she’s been given a minimum of 7 years, a maximum of life, which she wont serve, she’ll get out eventually), was found purely by fluke, they caught her friend with indecent images of children, which eventually led to her, this erupted when it first came out, calls for more protection of children at Nursery’s, however whats happend? Any Nation wide change… no, they took no notice, but society itself can’t be to blame can it, the media needs a scapegoat all the time, and now it’s Religion, especially Catholicism/Christianity.

The first one was found because Ofsted found their safeguarding strategies (which they had none, I know the nursery) to not be satisfactory, again the Police got lucky, however that’s TRUE pedophilia, the rape of a pre-pubescent child, the majority of cases within the Church have been ephebophilia, the abuse of a post-pubescent minor (basically under the legal age of consent of the society, not pedophilia, the rape of a child).

However there is never as much uproar about this horrendous cases, which happend in the past few years, compared to a 20/30 year old allegation against the Catholic Church, Double Standards, I deplore both, but we shouldn’t act like the Churches Doctrine of the Seal of Confession is to blame, the problem is across society, and more prevelent in secular settings, such as education, or environments like the Family, all an attempt at the Seal of Confession is, is religious bigotry.

Also, due to this Seal of Confession, the Confessor can not report the penitent to ANYONE, not the Pope, The Bishop, the Authorities, not even the little old lady down the street over a cuppa, it’s binding, and that privacy can not be broken, as the Penitent confessed and confided in God through the Priest, not in the Priest, it’s not the Priest place to move it on.

What the Vatican official said is probably right, I hate to say, you can not force a penitent to put themselves forward, if the confessor believes they aren’t contrite, they should withhold absolution, but they are still bound by the Seal even if Absolution is withheld.

 

[kimmielittle]

Well, we DO know that many, many priests have confessed molesting children to the police, just do a Google search.

This is called “affirmation of the consequent” also a fallacy in logic. Apples do not equal Oranges.

While true some Priests have admitted to the police on interrogation, their acts, you have not proved your point that the Confessional is the culprit. Nor have you shown referenced as evidence, just how many Priests have heard confessions about child abuse and how braking the seal would help.

We also know that a Vatican official has come out and said that not only should priests who confess this crime in the confessional NOT be reported to their superiors or to the police, but that the confessor himself should not even ENCOURAGE the offender himself to notify his superiors or the police of his activities.
uscatholic.org/news/2010/03/vatican-official-urges-confidentiality-confessors-sex-abuse-sins

Do the math.

Exactly…The Seal of Confession shall not be broken. NOT to anyone.

Read the article

“From the confessor, (the penitent) can only expect absolution, certainly not a sentence nor the order to confess his crime in public,” he said.

Other Vatican officials, who spoke on background, said a distinction should be drawn between what a confessor requires of a penitent as a condition for absolution,** and what the confessor may strongly encourage the penitent to do.**

It is not problem of math but of logic.

 

[Corki]

This “law” will do none of that for various reasons. It’s easy enough for confessions to be behind a screen, ie anonymous. This “law” is about punishing the Catholic Church in Ireland. It is grandstanding by people who think religion is stupid. It will do nothing to get anyone off the street.

Exactly. Even if the priests go along, the law will do nothing to protect children. It’s just an exercise to make it **look like **the government is doing something.

Future Confession scenario:

Preist (walking into police station: I need to report an incident of child abuse as I am required to by law.

Police: Thank you for coming, Father. How did you come to know about this?

Priest: It was confessed to me.

Police: When was this?

Priest: Yesterday; I hear Confessions every Saturday.

Police: Who was the abuser?

Priest: I don’t know the name. Confession is anonymous.

Police: What did he look like? Could you pick him out of a mug book?

Priest: I couldn’t see the face in the Confessional.

Police: Well, it was a man, right?

Priest: I think so but I couldn’t be certain. The voice sounded mostly male.

Police Well, who was the victim?

Priest: The penitent did not say the victim’s name?

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, Confession is about the sinner.

Police: Was the victim a boy or girl?

Priest: I am not sure.

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, it’s just as sinful to abuse a boy as a girl.

Police: When did this crime occur?

Priest I don’t really know. The penitent said he last went to Confession five years ago so it was probably sometime in the last five years.

Police: Where did it occur? I need to make sure this is handled by the proper jurisdiction.

Priest: That wasn’t mentioned.

Police: Did you excommunicate him for this horrible crime?

Priest: No, I have no authority to excommunicate anyone.

Police: Well, thank you Father. We are so happy that you came to us so we can save the children of Ireland.