MERGED: No more tropes for Agnus Dei

[YoungTradCath]

So… umm is a troped Agnus Dei ever heard in an OF?

This was a silly practice that surfaced, probably due to OCP/GIA and the like exerting their deathgrip on Mass music.

The Agnus Dei in the EF Requiem Mass is actually troped. Instead of:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem

it is

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem (grant them rest)
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem (grant them rest)
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem sempiternam (grant them eternal rest)

which I support because it is not because of want to be “different” or something, but because the liturgical books say it must be done, and because it is solidly traditional.

 

[bobballen_18]

I have never even heard of tropes for the Agnus Dei, EF or OF! That’s interesting.

 

[OraLabora]

This was a silly practice that surfaced, probably due to OCP/GIA and the like exerting their deathgrip on Mass music.

The Agnus Dei in the EF Requiem Mass is actually troped. Instead of:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem

it is

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem (grant them rest)
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem (grant them rest)
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem sempiternam (grant them eternal rest)

which I support because it is not because of want to be “different” or something, but because the liturgical books say it must be done, and because it is solidly traditional.

That’s not really a trope, that’s changing the invocations. A trope is when some text precedes the invocation. This is the Orbis Factor example for the Kyrie:

1. Orbis factor rex aeterne, eleison
2. Pietatis fons immense, eleison
3. Noxas omnes nostras pelle, eleison
4. Christe qui lux es mundi dator vitae, eleison
5. Arte laesos daemonis intuere, eleison
6. Conservans te credentes confirmansque, eleison
7. Patrem tuum teque flamen utrorumque, eleison
8. Deum scimus unum atque trinum esse, eleison
9. Clemens nobis adsis paraclite ut vivamus in te, eleison.

Which translates to

1. Maker of the world, King eternal, have mercy upon us.
2. O immense source of pity, have mercy upon us.
3. Drive off all our evils, have mercy upon us.
4. Christ who art the light of the world and giver of life, have mercy upon us.
5. Consider the wounds produced by the devil’s art, have mercy upon us.
6. Keeping and confirming thy believers, have mercy upon us.
7. Thou and thy Father, an equal light, have mercy upon us.
8. We know that God is one and three, have mercy upon us.
9. Thou, merciful unto us, art present with the Holy Spirit that we might live in thee, have mercy upon us.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Actually, more than three is ok. It’s just the tropes that are not allowed.

They did more than 3 tropes. “Lamb of God” came last to put the never-ending song to rest. I would say it was frequently at 6 repeats. They did this until the priest and EMHC’s were done with the fractioning rite.

But has anyone else noticed that the Agnus Dei is basically used to hush the people up after the sign of peace?

 

[Elizium23]

But has anyone else noticed that the Agnus Dei is basically used to hush the people up after the sign of peace?

LOL. At one parish I attend, when swine flu was going around, the pastor in his wisdom abolished the Sign of Peace altogether. The choir goes directly to the Agnus Dei, but the assembly is somewhat insistent on having their handshakes and huggings, which they do throughout the Agnus as if to spite the pastor’s decision.

At my home parish, we are reminded to begin the Agnus Dei promptly, and it is indeed to ensure that the Sign of Peace does not get out of hand.

 

[superamazingman]

They did more than 3 tropes. “Lamb of God” came last to put the never-ending song to rest. I would say it was frequently at 6 repeats. They did this until the priest and EMHC’s were done with the fractioning rite.

But has anyone else noticed that the Agnus Dei is basically used to hush the people up after the sign of peace?

1. yet another reason to omit the sign of peace on many occasions
2. the EMHCs shouldn’t be in the sanctuary yet.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

1. yet another reason to omit the sign of peace on many occasions
2. the EMHCs shouldn’t be in the sanctuary yet.

Let me count how many parishes I’ve seen that follow that rule. Hmm, nope.

 

[agapewolf]

Let me count how many parishes I’ve seen that follow that rule. Hmm, nope.

??? pretty much every parish in my diocese.

 

[Phemie]

They did more than 3 tropes. “Lamb of God” came last to put the never-ending song to rest. I would say it was frequently at 6 repeats. They did this until the priest and EMHC’s were done with the fractioning rite.

The ‘Agnus Dei’ accompanies the fractioning rite so they are right to repeat until it’s over. The tropes, OTOH, as well as the EMHCs ‘helping’, were wrong.

But has anyone else noticed that the Agnus Dei is basically used to hush the people up after the sign of peace?

If only it was ‘after’ the Sign of Peace! In my parish the choir seems to abhor the silence during that time so they launch into the Agnus Dei while the priest is still offering the Sign of Peace.

 

[TrueLight]

The ‘Agnus Dei’ accompanies the fractioning rite so they are right to repeat until it’s over. The tropes, OTOH, as well as the EMHCs ‘helping’, were wrong.

If only it was ‘after’ the Sign of Peace! In my parish the choir seems to abhor the silence during that time so they launch into the Agnus Dei while the priest is still offering the Sign of Peace.

LOL@ “launch”.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

It is unfortunate that these decisions are rarely reinforced by bishops whose dioceses contain publishing houses. OCP’s “Flor y Canto” is loaded with illicit tropes and poor translations of the Mass parts. There is not one Gloria, for example, which follows the approved Spanish-language translation of the prayer; most of the Glorias are poor paraphrases designed to glorify the cheesy musical setting. Their Mass parts are full of extra phrases or altered texts. One Alleluia even includes amens and silly-sounding “aaahs.”

 

[superamazingman]

Let me count how many parishes I’ve seen that follow that rule. Hmm, nope.

How unfortunate.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Ugh, you have no idea. Music “ministers” who think “Lamb of God” is boring like to replace it with things like

Jesus:
“Light of the World”/“King of Kings”/“Bread of Life”/“Prince of Peace”/“Word made Flesh”/etc.

This was really common in Churches before the translation change.

It’s still pretty common. At least in Canada.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

One Alleluia even includes amens and silly-sounding “aaahs.”

No way it can be as bad as this one!
youtube.com/watch?v=Pk769aB3tPA

That is one of the options from OCP. shudder Unless of course, you’re in the Caribbean or something and are getting your Gospel Groove on…outside of Mass…

 

[fnr]

praytellblog.com/index.php/2012/10/04/no-more-agnus-dei-tropes/

“In response to a request from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the USCCB Administrative Committee adopted a change on September 12, 2012 to the U.S. Bishops’ 2007 guidelines on liturgical music, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship. Number 188 of the document has been altered to remove any further permission for the use of Christological tropes or other adaptations to the text of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God).”

No surprise. Bureaucracy wins again! Council of Trent REPRESENT!

Exacting translation of the words of the Latin Missal doesn’t really contribute to a flowering of my relationship with Christ. Sorry!

Gotta say, the compromises made in Sacrosanctum Concilium seem to be working out all one way…

1. This sacred Council has several aims in view: it desires to impart an ever increasing vigor to the Christian life of the faithful; to adapt more suitably to the needs of our own times those institutions which are subject to change; to foster whatever can promote union among all who believe in Christ; to strengthen whatever can help to call the whole of mankind into the household of the Church. The Council therefore sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and promotion of the liturgy.
   …]

1. Nevertheless the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows. For the aim and object of apostolic works is that all who are made sons of God by faith and baptism should come together to praise God in the midst of His Church, to take part in the sacrifice, and to eat the Lord’s supper.

The liturgy in its turn moves the faithful, filled with “the paschal sacraments,” to be “one in holiness” [26]; it prays that “they may hold fast in their lives to what they have grasped by their faith” [27]; the renewal in the Eucharist of the covenant between the Lord and man draws the faithful into the compelling love of Christ and sets them on fire. From the liturgy, therefore, and especially from the Eucharist, as from a font, grace is poured forth upon us; and the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God, to which all other activities of the Church are directed as toward their end, is achieved in the most efficacious possible way.

1. But in order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects, it is necessary that the faithful come to it with proper dispositions, that their minds should be attuned to their voices, and that they should cooperate with divine grace lest they receive it in vain [28] . **Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects. **

…]

1. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.

1. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

23. That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress Careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places. Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.

As far as possible, notable differences between the rites used in adjacent regions must be carefully avoided.

Gotta say, the “tropes” seemed to be pretty “organic,” and taking them away distinctly does not. On top of the awkward language in the new missal, I distinctly do NOT feel like I’m being pushed toward “increasing vigor” in my experience of the liturgy of the Eucharist. The notion that language that’s awkwardly phrased in American vernacular English is going to benefit the vast body of believers seems to be lacking of consideration of how the human mind actually works. That language in Section 23 of Sacrosanctum Concilium seems to call pretty explicitly for “laws” governing the liturgy to be developed “in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms” and the license given to “various places.” Whose experience was considered here? Seriously, can a bureaucratic body in the Curia, filtered through the USCCB, honestly claim that it understands the varying experiences of Catholics around the world?

Yes, I do understand that grace is not an inherently experiential phenomenon. Just read the Spanish mystics to get that much. But I’ll also say that “conformity” isn’t a synonym for “relationship with Jesus Christ.”

 

[superamazingman]

Exacting translation of the words of the Latin Missal doesn’t really contribute to a flowering of my relationship with Christ. Sorry!

Allowing modification of the words of the missal doesn’t contribute to a flowering of my relationship with Christ. Sorry!

 

[superamazingman]

No surprise. Bureaucracy wins again! Council of Trent REPRESENT!

…]

Gotta say, the “tropes” seemed to be pretty “organic,” and taking them away distinctly does not. On top of the awkward language in the new missal, I distinctly do NOT feel like I’m being pushed toward “increasing vigor” in my experience of the liturgy of the Eucharist. The notion that language that’s awkwardly phrased in American vernacular English is going to benefit the vast body of believers seems to be lacking of consideration of how the human mind actually works. That language in Section 23 of Sacrosanctum Concilium seems to call pretty explicitly for “laws” governing the liturgy to be developed “in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms” and the license given to “various places.” Whose experience was considered here? Seriously, can a bureaucratic body in the Curia, filtered through the USCCB, honestly claim that it understands the varying experiences of Catholics around the world?

You can talk your way out of it all you want trying to rationalize it, but what part of this don’t you understand?

Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. - Redemptionis Sacramentum, no. 27

Allowance was never given for tropes in the first place, so to be honest, the USCCB had this coming to them. It’s not that some evil bureaucracy is at it again, the UCCCB was disobedient when they published this document. That is the only problem here.

 

[fnr]

You can talk your way out of it all you want trying to rationalize it, but what part of this don’t you understand?

Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. - Redemptionis Sacramentum, no. 27

Allowance was never given for tropes in the first place, so to be honest, the USCCB had this coming to them. It’s not that some evil bureaucracy is at it again, the UCCCB was disobedient when they published this document. That is the only problem here.

Obedience. The be all and end all of faith. If you’re a Muslim. Islam means “submission.”

I’m not rationalizing. In fact, it’s not reasoning I’m using. It’s that it seems to me that obedience is a pretty poor substitute for a direct relationship with Christ. That’s not Protestant soteriology, it’s Vatican II. Catholicism is not a propositional checklist of doctrine, dogma, and discipline, though they are important parts of how we understand truth. The liturgy is the center of our faith life and at the center of the liturgy is the Eucharist.

This change to the Agnes Dei is not about correcting doctrinal error or faith malformation through liturgical error. It’s simply about one thing: obedience.

 

[superamazingman]

Obedience. The be all and end all of faith. If you’re a Muslim. Islam means “submission.”

We are still called to obedience, islam or not. Obedience is not a be all end all, but it is still something we are called to.

I’m not rationalizing. In fact, it’s not reasoning I’m using. It’s that it seems to me that obedience is a pretty poor substitute for a direct relationship with Christ.

No one said you couldn’t be obedient AND have a relationship with christ. I have a great relationship with both my parents, even though I still have to obey them.

That’s not Protestant soteriology, it’s Vatican II. Catholicism is not a propositional checklist of doctrine, dogma, and discipline, though they are important parts of how we understand truth. The liturgy is the center of our faith life and at the center of the liturgy is the Eucharist.

This change to the Agnes Dei is not about correcting doctrinal error or faith malformation through liturgical error. It’s simply about one thing: obedience.

It’s NOT just about obedience, although that is important. As the tradition of the church has taught us, and has been echoed in the GIRM, we need to live by Lex orandi, lex credendi. The way we worship IS important. Following the liturgical books and the rubrics IS important. The way we worship is the way we believe. It’s not enough just to
correct major issues. The one who is faithful in small matters will be faithful in large.

And like I mentioned: if the USCCB wouldn’t have put this errant allowance in their document in the first place (because if they would have taken 20 minutes to research it, they would have known they shouldn’t have put it in there), we wouldn’t have had all these problems in the first place that you are so much against.

Don’t blame Rome for the USCCB’s problems. Please put blame where blame is due.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

No way it can be as bad as this one!
youtube.com/watch?v=Pk769aB3tPA

That is one of the options from OCP. shudder Unless of course, you’re in the Caribbean or something and are getting your Gospel Groove on…outside of Mass…

Sigh, I’ve heard this one before too. The funky fresh music doesn’t sound very dignified, does it?