MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[Mormon_Cultist]

The fact remains Mormons believe you have to be a Mormon, i.e., accepting the Mormon religion and baptism. Mormons thinking this is possible after death.

There are two possible scenarios:

1. We are right, these ordinances are necessary, and performing them by proxy is, indeed valid. While you may not be able to consider that our beliefs are correct; just imagine a purely speculative ‘what if’ scenario. You die, turns out we’re right and you did indeed need to have a baptism by our priesthood authority. So despite having lived what I am sure is a very good life, following most of Gods laws; you lack but one thing - a baptism acceptable for entry Into heaven, and are therefore turned away from God’s presence. How grateful would you then be for the individual who went down into the water on your behalf, giving you the opportunity to accept that ordinance (or not if at that juncture you didn’t want to) and find entry into God’s kingdom.
   Not only this, but what kind of God turns away those who have never had the opportunity to receive baptism by correct authority (estimated at over 90% of those to have lived on earth). Certainly no form of justice nor mercy would deny them the same opportunity as everyone else: and we know that God is both perfectly just, and perfectly merciful.
2. We’re wrong. Everything we believe we do on behalf of the dead is meaningless and does nothing. No problems caused, no harm done.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight; it seems that you are very angry with the LDS church, your responses on these threads are extremely argumentative and intentionally ignorant of the facts that you should already know, and that are represented to you in case you have forgotten. It would be appreciated if you could adopt a tone of peaceful discussion instead of argument.

Cultist, just because I post truth that you do not like does not mean I am angry. My responses are full of truth and I constantly say I am praying for you all. There is no anger in me. I find that when LDS members are faced with facts they like to hide, they accuse the fact-bearer with being angry. Please, unless you read minds from a distance, do not attempt to figure out my mindframe. I am in a great mood.

Now that we have that out of the way, let me say again, I have not misrepresented your church or stated falsehoods. Everything I have said is documented and I have posted the proof at various times on this board.

This is not true, and shows either a misunderstanding, or lapse of memory regarding temple ceremonies, their meaning, their intent and the true scope of the priesthood sealing power.
TK already knows this, but for those who do not understand where his misconception originates, allow me to explain;
We teach that marriage is not for this mortal life alone: that a marriage performed by the priesthood of God, applying the sealing power (as given to Peter to bind on earth as in heaven) in a sacred temple ceremony will last for not only time, but for all eternity. Our scriptures teach us that only those who’s marriage has been so sealed can achieve the fullest degree of glory in the presence of our Father in Heaven.
Therefore it may appear, at first reading, that our doctrine excludes all non-LDS from achieving this; however it must be further understood that we believe, as the early Christians did, that essential ordinances such as this may be performed by those who are living, on behalf of those who have died. This is one of the primary focuses of much of our temple work and our genealogy research, so that all may be entitled to receive those same blessings, even when their lives did not allow them to attain all necessary ordinances in mortality. Thus the plan of God continues, and the gates of hell do not prevail against His children.

Again, MC, I have not forgotten or misrepresented. Your problem is, you cannot whitewash or misdirect here because many of us know better. LDS believe that ONLY LDS will be in the “Celestial Kingdom”. While it is true that you believe many people will convert to LDS in the Spirit Prison, the fact is, if you are not LDS, you do not gpo the the celestial kingdom. That is fact.

This has never been adopted as doctrine at any time. I have never been taught it, it is not published in our canon, it is not included in our teaching courses. While Brigham Young no doubt believed it as he said it, and it was likely a well intentioned statement; it has no doctrinal or scriptural basis that I know of.

Your problem is, BY was a PROPHET. And BY SAID what he stated was doctrine. Was BY being dishonest?

I would agree with you that the individuals involved here do not seem to have acted appropriately: nobody but those directly involved ought to have been made aware of any church disciplinary action taking place. Obviously I cannot speak for your specific circumstances, but I have had very close experience of the discipline process and excommunication scenario - more than I would be prepared to share with anyone, let alone strangers online. I can tell you that those involved have nothing but the eternal welfare of the individual in mind when considering their decisions - excommunication is actually less of a punishment, than a relief of burden for the person. But it is easy to enter with the wrong perceptions - I did.

Your experience was different than mine. Mine was not very nice. Even worse stuff occurred that I will not go into. But, I never truly held that against the LDS Church so much as the people involved. I am not convinced that any of it is done with eternal welfare in mind. I have my own experience and conversations with other ex-LDS as the basis for my opinion.

I do find it odd how much you seem to still care about the way you were treated, given you tend to be very vocal about how pleased you are to have ‘escaped’. You ‘got out’ why does the manner of your ejection matter?

Still care? Just because I mentioned it? You truly read too much into posts. I do not care at all. Had you not made comments that I felt were not entrely accurate, I would not have brought it up. And I have never, to my recollection, said I “escaped”. That is yet another misleading comment. I have stated God led me out. He did. God is awesome!

I will pray for you, my friend. Peace.

 

[TexanKnight]

There are two possible scenarios:

1. We are right, these ordinances are necessary, and performing them by proxy is, indeed valid. While you may not be able to consider that our beliefs are correct; just imagine a purely speculative ‘what if’ scenario. You die, turns out we’re right and you did indeed need to have a baptism by our priesthood authority. So despite having lived what I am sure is a very good life, following most of Gods laws; you lack but one thing - a baptism acceptable for entry Into heaven, and are therefore turned away from God’s presence. How grateful would you then be for the individual who went down into the water on your behalf, giving you the opportunity to accept that ordinance (or not if at that juncture you didn’t want to) and find entry into God’s kingdom.
   Not only this, but what kind of God turns away those who have never had the opportunity to receive baptism by correct authority (estimated at over 90% of those to have lived on earth). Certainly no form of justice nor mercy would deny them the same opportunity as everyone else: and we know that God is both perfectly just, and perfectly merciful.
2. We’re wrong. Everything we believe we do on behalf of the dead is meaningless and does nothing. No problems caused, no harm done.

Anytime one follows a false prophet, there is harm done, my dear friend.

 

[TexanKnight]

Mormoncultist: you are darrn tootin’ right. I am very angry at the mormon church. They took advantage of me during a low point of my life emotionally. They provided an instant set of “friends”, when I was lonely and needed friends desperately.

They were in such a rush to dunk me (I had already been baptised years before), that they dunked me without telling me of all the unusual parts of mormon teaching like Mrs God, God a former human who worked his way up to Godhood, Jesus and Satan “brothers”. The absolute falsehood of the “great apostacy”. It just goes on and on, ad infinitum.

Yes they absolutely deceived me, had I known all that hidden teaching of mormonism, I surely would have never let them dunk me.

And know what? As soon as I left mormondom all of those new “friends” vanished instantly.

Yes. None of my “friends” stayed around after I left the Church

 

[sallybutler]

Hi Bezant,

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Due to the translation for Hebrew and Greek to English and due to man, some simple and basic truths were lost.

So, has the LDS church taken on the task of translating the Bible correctly?

 

[RebeccaJ]

There are two possible scenarios:

1. We are right, these ordinances are necessary, and performing them by proxy is, indeed valid. While you may not be able to consider that our beliefs are correct; just imagine a purely speculative ‘what if’ scenario. You die, turns out we’re right and you did indeed need to have a baptism by our priesthood authority. So despite having lived what I am sure is a very good life, following most of Gods laws; you lack but one thing - a baptism acceptable for entry Into heaven, and are therefore turned away from God’s presence. How grateful would you then be for the individual who went down into the water on your behalf, giving you the opportunity to accept that ordinance (or not if at that juncture you didn’t want to) and find entry into God’s kingdom.
   Not only this, but what kind of God turns away those who have never had the opportunity to receive baptism by correct authority (estimated at over 90% of those to have lived on earth). Certainly no form of justice nor mercy would deny them the same opportunity as everyone else: and we know that God is both perfectly just, and perfectly merciful.
2. We’re wrong. Everything we believe we do on behalf of the dead is meaningless and does nothing. No problems caused, no harm done.

We are judged according to our understanding of God and how we live according to what we understand, in this life, not the next.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:22[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 4:6-8[/BIBLEDRB]

There is harm in false teachings, in that it prevents people from coming to Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 1:6-9[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[TexanKnight]

So, has the LDS church taken on the task of translating the Bible correctly?

Joseph Smith reworded a lot of the Bible that he said was wrong but is now right. Amazingly enough, in some of his correct retranslation of the Bible, we found out that Joseph Smith would someday be a prophet

 

[RebeccaJ]

She herself admits it. Just this last Sunday she was there, and I immediately knew she must be going for dinner. Sure enough when I asked her, she just laughed her confirmation that this was, indeed, her only reason for turning up.

I was speaking of judging, as demonstrated here again. There is only one Judge. Our (humans) position is one of love, charity, hope and prayer.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Therefore it may appear, at first reading, that our doctrine excludes all non-LDS from achieving this; however it must be further understood that we believe, as the early Christians did, that essential ordinances such as this may be performed by those who are living, on behalf of those who have died.

There is nothing that shows early Christians believed in marrying dead people.

 

[zaffiroborant]

T
Not only this, but what kind of God turns away those who have never had the opportunity to receive baptism by correct authority (estimated at over 90% of those to have lived on earth).

Why don’t you trust God?

 

[cbelarski]

My questions are regarding the Mormon teaching of “The Great Apostasy” a total apostasy of true Christian teaching. My understanding is that Mormons believe that the church suffered universal apostasy about 200 AD ( approx. 100 years after the death of the last apostles), and that Joseph Smith restored Christianity to the earth through his modern day revelation. I have invited LDS missionaries into my home to discuss these questions, but they have not been able to provide any answers and did not return to discuss further as invited to do…so here are my questions:

1. Mt 7:24-27 – It seems to be clear in this scripture that what Jesus builds will not collapse.
   Do Mormons believe that God is like the wise man (Rock) or the foolish man (sand)? Of course the wise…so what is the explanation?
2. Mt 16:13-18 – How could His church fall into total heresy? According to this scripture wouldn’t even a short period of His church “disappearing” be making Jesus a liar, or at least make him wrong because the Gates of Hell would have prevailed (even if only for a short time)?
3. Mt 28:16-20 – Considering that Jesus undeniably states here that He will be with His church until the end of time, wouldn’t it seem impossible for His church to apostasize, be doctrinally corrupt, and/or abandoned by Christ?
4. Scripture mentions heresy/corruption/apostasy such as Mt 7:15, Acts 20:29, Thess 2:3, 2Pet 2:1, Rev 13:7, Mt 7:24-29, Mt 16:18-19, etc. While the Bible warns of periods of corruption that will characterize all periods of Christianity or mass apostasy prior to the end of time, how does scripture support any claim of total apostasy?
5. The Canon of the Bible was about 400AD. How can the LDS church accepts the KJV New Testament as Sacred Scripture if the authoritive determination of the Canon took place about 200 years after the Mormon claim of total apostasy?
6. History books list every major (and minor) schism/split of the Church (Arianism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, etc.) yet there is never a mention of total apostasy. Not even legitimate writings from early enemies of the church such as Romans, Jews, and Pegans, who all would have gained by writing of this to discredit the Christian uprising they where trying to silence. At a minimum early Christians trying to stay faithful to the Apostolic teachings would have raised a massive outcry as the rest of Christianity slipped into apostasy. I guess my real question here is why does history not record anything about this “great apostasy”?
7. My last question. What specific facts such as who started it, when did it begin, and which early church fathers defended against it can be suggested as proof of a great apostasy?

Please no generalizations of the theory, but Biblical or Historical facts supporting the theory of the great apostasy.

Thanks.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

TexanKnight:

Cultist, just because I post truth that you do not like does not mean I am angry. My responses are full of truth and I constantly say I am praying for you all. There is no anger in me. I find that when LDS members are faced with facts they like to hide, they accuse the fact-bearer with being angry. Please, unless you read minds from a distance, do not attempt to figure out my mindframe. I am in a great mood.

Well I must have read too much into the tone of your posts in general, in which case I apologise.
There is no truth in the LDS church that I do not like. What I object to is people insisting that things are LDS beliefs when they have been repeatedly told and shown that they are not.

TexanKnight:

Now that we have that out of the way, let me say again, I have not misrepresented your church or stated falsehoods. Everything I have said is documented and I have posted the proof at various times on this board.

Except that the ‘documented’ evidence that you most frequently use does not come from our doctrines, rather the musings of individuals.

TexanKnight:

Again, MC, I have not forgotten or misrepresented. Your problem is, you cannot whitewash or misdirect here because many of us know better. LDS believe that ONLY LDS will be in the “Celestial Kingdom”. While it is true that you believe many people will convert to LDS in the Spirit Prison, the fact is, if you are not LDS, you do not gpo the the celestial kingdom. That is fact.

Actually we do not believe that only LDS will be in the celestial kingdom; but we do believe that only those who have received baptism by the correct priesthood authority can enter. Given that Catholics re-baptise those from other faiths (LDS, for example) who convert, it is quite clear that you share this belief in the essential nature of baptism; and the necessity of proper authority. With that in mind I could similarly state that Catholics believe that only Catholics can get into heaven, and have the same basis for my argument as you have for yours.
"TexanKnight:

Your problem is, BY was a PROPHET. And BY SAID what he stated was doctrine. Was BY being dishonest?

This would be true if it was ever the case that our doctrine was simply stated once, by one individual, and was then universally accepted. But this has never been true, it has always required ratification by the full quorum of the twelve apostles before being formally accepted as a doctrine of the church.

There is nothing that shows early Christians believed in marrying dead people.

There is surprising evidence that many early Christians did, in fact, believe and practise this. But would really deserve a thread all to itself.

Why don’t you trust God?

Oh, I do. I trust Him when He says that baptism is essential for entry into His kingdom; I trust that He is perfectly just and perfectly merciful; I trust that He loves all of His children completely, perfectly and equally.
Because baptism is essential, it is not possible for those who have not received it by correct authority to enter into heaven. A vast number of people lived before Christ even came; before John the Baptist came preaching repentance and baptism; before Jesus made known the essential nature of baptism. What is to become of all of these? Possibly an even greater number have lived since Christ, without ever having the opportunity to hear of Him or receive baptism (even without counting those who hear and reject Him, or those who follow false teachings) - what about these? Are we really to believe that a loving God has no plan for these of His children? No means whereby these can receive the vital rite of baptism? Is this loving, just or merciful? If this really were the case, the gates of hades really would prevail over His church.
I say no - to believe this is to believe that God does not have these qualities, which qualities are a basic attribute of Godliness, and therefore to say that He is not God.

 

[ParkerD]

My questions are regarding the Mormon teaching of “The Great Apostasy” a total apostasy of true Christian teaching. My understanding is that Mormons believe that the church suffered universal apostasy about 200 AD ( approx. 100 years after the death of the last apostles), and that Joseph Smith restored Christianity to the earth through his modern day revelation. I have invited LDS missionaries into my home to discuss these questions, but they have not been able to provide any answers and did not return to discuss further as invited to do…so here are my questions:

1. Mt 7:24-27 – It seems to be clear in this scripture that what Jesus builds will not collapse.
   Do Mormons believe that God is like the wise man (Rock) or the foolish man (sand)? Of course the wise…so what is the explanation?

Chelarski,

It so happens that a strong and gusty wind outside has made sleep a bit difficult for me due to noise, so I have some time to try and answer your questions.

1. That teaching is a clear allusion to Jesus Christ being the Rock and foundation of salvation. It ties in its allusion, to Matthew 16:18 in that whoever is a wise man (such as Peter was) will build their house upon “a rock” by doing the things Jesus taught to do, and by therefore knowing by personal revelation what Rock they are founded upon and thus not be able to be dissuaded or dislodged or to sink when the storms come, as in this life some kind of storm (test of faith) will surely come.

1. Mt 16:13-18 – How could His church fall into total heresy? According to this scripture wouldn’t even a short period of His church “disappearing” be making Jesus a liar, or at least make him wrong because the Gates of Hell would have prevailed (even if only for a short time)?

1. The word “church” is based on a word “ecclesia” from the Greek, and means “congregation of believers”, so that is why verse 18 ties to each person who is founded upon a Rock being founded upon Jesus Christ and His teachings. Each person thus becomes one of the “congregation of believers” when they do this. Jesus will build His congregation of believers, even today, both numerically and by building each believer into something they weren’t when they started believing in Him, because He will change their heart and help them become a better person–more holy, more loving, more grateful, more compassionate. The gates of hell don’t prevail against any person when that person is founded upon the Rock of salvation, Jesus Christ. They are part of a “congregation of believers” who cannot be dissuaded, dislodged, or will not sink into sinful patterns of behavior because they will know to repent and change. So Satan will have minimal influence with them, and when he does subtly storm them, they will prevail against him through faith and hope in Jesus Christ, and through staying faithful.

1. Mt 28:16-20 – Considering that Jesus undeniably states here that He will be with His church until the end of time, wouldn’t it seem impossible for His church to apostasize, be doctrinally corrupt, and/or abandoned by Christ?

1. Jesus had promised the gift of the Holy Ghost and the continuing guidance and blessing of the Holy Ghost to be with the apostles. He promised to be with the apostles in that way, through the Holy Ghost, and to also be with the apostles by being their “Good Shepherd” still, from heaven, which He is for any heartfelt believer in Him even today.

1. Scripture mentions heresy/corruption/apostasy such as Mt 7:15, Acts 20:29, Thess 2:3, 2Pet 2:1, Rev 13:7, Mt 7:24-29, Mt 16:18-19, etc. While the Bible warns of periods of corruption that will characterize all periods of Christianity or mass apostasy prior to the end of time, how does scripture support any claim of total apostasy?

Revelation 13:7 includes the words “over all kindreds”, which is all-encompassing.

Matthew 21:38 warns of a subtle takeover by Jewish influence (which would mean the Pharisees, since they were a major group who joined the early church membership and yet Paul warns that they couldn’t leave their old traditions behind without seeking to bring them into the new set of beliefs taught by Christ and the apostles.) Matthew 21:43 prophesies of the result of that subtle influence. One also needs to keep in mind that the Old Testament prophesied that the house of Israel would be restored to being true believers in the New Covenant gospel in the latter days on the earth, and would be gathered from far countries.

Daniel 7:21 and 7:25 ties to Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:14, and shows that Satan’s influence was prophesied to temporarily prevail on the earth during a period of time, times, and half a time.

Revelation 14:7 prophesies that an angel would come to the earth “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (which ties back to Revelation 13:7)

1. The Canon of the Bible was about 400AD. How can the LDS church accept the KJV New Testament as Sacred Scripture if the authoritive determination of the Canon took place about 200 years after the Mormon claim of total apostasy?

1. God can certainly do His work through imperfect people, and does so. Also, just because the priesthood authority was taken back by Him, that doesn’t mean people didn’t have the light of Christ and also the Holy Ghost from time to time as they sought to live by the truths of the gospel. So the gathering of the New Testament writings was certainly guided by God, and inspired by Him. It is not an “all or nothing” kind of case.

 

[ParkerD]

Continuation to Chelarski:

1. History books list every major (and minor) schism/split of the Church (Arianism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, etc.) yet there is never a mention of total apostasy. Not even legitimate writings from early enemies of the church such as Romans, Jews, and Pegans, who all would have gained by writing of this to discredit the Christian uprising they where trying to silence. At a minimum early Christians trying to stay faithful to the Apostolic teachings would have raised a massive outcry as the rest of Christianity slipped into apostasy. I guess my real question here is why does history not record anything about this “great apostasy”?

1. The followers trusted the leaders for the most part. If one studies Arianism closely, one finds that it is mis-characterized by some writers and that the belief in a “separate Jesus”, God the Son but separate and distinct from God the Father, was the belief that was taught by the apostles who spread the gospel into Germany and England.

1. My last question. What specific facts such as who started it, when did it begin, and which early church fathers defended against it can be suggested as proof of a great apostasy?

Paul, Peter and John defended against it. Later leaders wouldn’t have defended against it, because they had reason to want to continue in their leadership role and because the changes were generally subtle, not dramatic except in the cases warned against by Paul, John, and Peter. See their writings in the epistles and in Revelation 1-3.

 

[Miriam1947]

Well I must have read too much into the tone of your posts in general, in which case I apologise.
There is no truth in the LDS church that I do not like. What I object to is people insisting that things are LDS beliefs when they have been repeatedly told and shown that they are not.

Except that the ‘documented’ evidence that you most frequently use does not come from our doctrines, rather the musings of individuals.

Actually we do not believe that only LDS will be in the celestial kingdom; but we do believe that only those who have received baptism by the correct priesthood authority can enter. Given that Catholics re-baptise those from other faiths (LDS, for example) who convert, it is quite clear that you share this belief in the essential nature of baptism; and the necessity of proper authority. With that in mind I could similarly state that Catholics believe that only Catholics can get into heaven, and have the same basis for my argument as you have for yours.

**The reason LDS are re-baptized is because you were never baptized properly in the first place. Your group says the words but since you don’t believe in the Trinity it is not considered by the Catholic Church to be a true baptism. The same goes for ‘oneness Pentecostals’ who believe in baptizing in the name of Jesus only.
**
This would be true if it was ever the case that our doctrine was simply stated once, by one individual, and was then universally accepted. But this has never been true, it has always required ratification by the full quorum of the twelve apostles before being formally accepted as a doctrine of the church.

There is surprising evidence that many early Christians did, in fact, believe and practise this. But would really deserve a thread all to itself.

Oh, I do. I trust Him when He says that baptism is essential for entry into His kingdom; I trust that He is perfectly just and perfectly merciful; I trust that He loves all of His children completely, perfectly and equally.
Because baptism is essential, it is not possible for those who have not received it by correct authority to enter into heaven. A vast number of people lived before Christ even came; before John the Baptist came preaching repentance and baptism; before Jesus made known the essential nature of baptism. What is to become of all of these? Possibly an even greater number have lived since Christ, without ever having the opportunity to hear of Him or receive baptism (even without counting those who hear and reject Him, or those who follow false teachings) - what about these? Are we really to believe that a loving God has no plan for these of His children? No means whereby these can receive the vital rite of baptism? Is this loving, just or merciful? If this really were the case, the gates of hades really would prevail over His church.
I say no - to believe this is to believe that God does not have these qualities, which qualities are a basic attribute of Godliness, and therefore to say that He is not God.

So you believe that you are standing in for God with baptism for the dead? You don’t think God has a plan in mind for those who were righteous before Christ was incarnated?

 

[TexanKnight]

Well I must have read too much into the tone of your posts in general, in which case I apologise.

Apology accepted. The problem with the typed word is that once really can’t see the facial expressions or mannerisms of the person typing. I kn ow I type in a direct manner. Much of the reason is that I hate typing, and I do not do it well, so I try to be direct. I truly hold no anger. I do, however, feel strongly about the topic

There is no truth in the LDS church that I do not like. What I object to is people insisting that things are LDS beliefs when they have been repeatedly told and shown that they are not.

The problem is, the LDS Church does not have your back. Having been LDS, I know what I was taught and what the older doctrinal books say. In fact, that is what led me from the Church. In my quest to become a very learned LDS, I started reading the older doctrinal books. There was too much I could believe. And despite the fact you tell us what the LDS does not believe, I know better. It is just as frustrating for us when you claim something was not and is not doctrine when we have quotes from prophets saying it IS doctrine.

Except that the ‘documented’ evidence that you most frequently use does not come from our doctrines, rather the musings of individuals.

And that is the problem. What you call musing was called doctrine. The LDS Church today runs from old doctrine like the plague because it is horrible doctrine. So, it is called musings now. That dog don’t hunt

Actually we do not believe that only LDS will be in the celestial kingdom; but we do believe that only those who have received baptism by the correct priesthood authority can enter. Given that Catholics re-baptise those from other faiths (LDS, for example) who convert, it is quite clear that you share this belief in the essential nature of baptism; and the necessity of proper authority. With that in mind I could similarly state that Catholics believe that only Catholics can get into heaven, and have the same basis for my argument as you have for yours.

You say tomato, I say tomahto The bottom line is, LDS believe that only LDS will be in the presence of God.

This would be true if it was ever the case that our doctrine was simply stated once, by one individual, and was then universally accepted. But this has never been true, it has always required ratification by the full quorum of the twelve apostles before being formally accepted as a doctrine of the church.

Again, BY CALLED it doctrine. You have never addressed that problem. He was the prophet. He called it doctrine. So, it is doctrine, or BY was lying, or he was not a true prophet. Which?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Actually we do not believe that only LDS will be in the celestial kingdom; but we do believe that only those who have received baptism by the correct priesthood authority can enter. Given that Catholics re-baptise those from other faiths (LDS, for example) who convert, it is quite clear that you share this belief in the essential nature of baptism; and the necessity of proper authority. With that in mind I could similarly state that Catholics believe that only Catholics can get into heaven, and have the same basis for my argument as you have for yours…

Except just about any baptism is considered valid, Methodist., Lutheran, Baptist on so on, as I understand only LDS, JW and Oneness churches have invalid baptisms.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormon_cultist.,

It is through Jesus Christ that we have been reconciled to the Father. He is not dependent on the Sacraments. We are dependent on Him. The Sacraments were instituted by Him in order to gift us with graces that are not available outside of the Sacraments. Those who hear the Word of God, Who is Jesus Christ, should accept baptism, as commanded by Jesus. Those who have not heard the Word of God through no fault of their own will be judged according to what they know and how they live what they know.

God is Merciful. This is made abundantly evident to us by Christ, who suffered, died, and is resurrected.

I teach RCIA at our parish, which is where those who are seeking Jesus Christ learn about Him and His Church. Being in Utah, we have a larger proportion of converts from Mormnism than many other areas. All, without exception, express a desire to be baptized including myself. We understand clearly that our Mormon baptism is not a Christian baptism. Easter Vigil being one of the most memorable and joyous days of my life.

Converts coming from mainstream Christianity, who have been baptized, are not baptized again because first, their baptism is a valid Christian baptism. Done with the same intent and form as the Catholic Church intends. They are received fully into the Church by a profession of faith, confirmation and first communion. Baptism, confirmation and Eucharist are the three Sacraments of Initiation into Christ’s Church, and always have been.

Second, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Once a person is baptized (validly) they are are never baptized again, because…third, our baptism marks us as belonging to Christ. A permanent change, some call a mark, is placed on our souls. It cannot be undone, ever, and it is not necessary to redo.

 

[rdscheirer]

As I’ve said before- guy finds “golden book that tells him everything but then it vanishes” just like the guy that sat in a cave where an angel (Satan? Gabriel?) came to him to give him the tenets of Islam.

Why not look at the guy who had witnesses to his preaching.

What better command can you give to humans than to say"Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself".

Whatever you believe God to be.

It nixes the Islamic - “if you meet an infidel you must convert them or enslave them or kill them”

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

So you believe that you are standing in for God with baptism for the dead? You don’t think God has a plan in mind for those who were righteous before Christ was incarnated?

We are no more ‘standing in for God’ than a priest performing a baptism claims the same.
I absolutely believe He has a plan - and that plan is baptism by proxy on behalf of those who have died. to say otherwise is to claim that baptism is not essential to enter God’s kingdom; and this would make Jesus a liar - I think we both know that He is not.

Converts coming from mainstream Christianity, who have been baptized, are not baptized again because first, their baptism is a valid Christian baptism. Done with the same intent and form as the Catholic Church intends. They are received fully into the Church by a profession of faith, confirmation and first communion. Baptism, confirmation and Eucharist are the three Sacraments of Initiation into Christ’s Church, and always have been.

Second, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Once a person is baptized (validly) they are are never baptized again, because…third, our baptism marks us as belonging to Christ. A permanent change, some call a mark, is placed on our souls. It cannot be undone, ever, and it is not necessary to redo.

Ok, I thought you believed that correct authority was also important for a valid baptism, so I stand corrected on that point.
I still stand on my point that you do believe baptism to be essential to enter God’s kingdom, else Jesus would be a liar.

TexanKnight:

The problem is, the LDS Church does not have your back. Having been LDS, I know what I was taught and what the older doctrinal books say. In fact, that is what led me from the Church. In my quest to become a very learned LDS, I started reading the older doctrinal books. There was too much I could believe. And despite the fact you tell us what the LDS does not believe, I know better. It is just as frustrating for us when you claim something was not and is not doctrine when we have quotes from prophets saying it IS doctrine.
…Again, BY CALLED it doctrine. You have never addressed that problem. He was the prophet. He called it doctrine. So, it is doctrine, or BY was lying, or he was not a true prophet. Which?

TexanKnight:

LDS believe that only LDS will be in the presence of God.