MERGED Questions about Mormonism

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I am guessing your silence indicates BY was either lying or not a prophet?
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
Ok, I thought you believed that correct authority was also important for a valid baptism, so I stand corrected on that point.
I still stand on my point that you do believe baptism to be essential to enter God’s kingdom, else Jesus would be a liar.
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The normative minister of a baptism is a bishop, priest, or deacon. In times of emergency, such a imminent death, anyone can baptize, even an atheist. As long a the person has the desire to be baptized, and the person performing the baptism has the same intent and form of the Catholic Church. The authority being that of Jesus Christ.

Other than that, it comes down to our definition of “Church”. The Christian understanding is it is comprised of ALL the baptized. There is but one Body of Christ and ALL Christians, by their baptism, are members of His Body. LDS deny this teaching, having replaced it with a structure that resembles an earthly organization, not a heavenly one.

I would also recommend that you consider Jesus’ words, especially to people who think the law, or in this case a law regarding authority, is going to save you. (hint: it isn’t) we are saved in and through Jesus Christ, not through the authority of humans. We hold no belief that Jesus is going to deny you entrance into heaven because you haven’t had a valid baptism.

Jesus taught, all those who hear Him and believe should be baptized, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If you believe, and also believe you sJhould be baptized, but willfully refuse, then you have put your soul in jeopardy. It is one of the more difficult things to deal with in RCIA, that is, those who have shown they believe, wish to be baptized, but at the last minute back out because of pressure from family. (Usually in these parts, LDS family.)

So you see, your presence here, with your false teachings and false gods, concerns us. Wolves in sheeps clothing, leading people who are already baptized, into peril.

You should have a concern for your soul.
 
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Zaffiroborant:
There is nothing that shows early Christians believed in marrying dead people.
Mormon Cultist:
There is surprising evidence that many early Christians did, in fact, believe and practise this. But would really deserve a thread all to itself.
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Here is a thread for you to present this evidence.
 
ParkerD said:
Chelarski,
  1. That teaching is a clear allusion to Jesus Christ being the Rock and foundation of salvation. It ties in its allusion, to Matthew 16:18 in that whoever is a wise man (such as Peter was) will build their house upon “a rock” by doing the things Jesus taught to do, and by therefore knowing by personal revelation what Rock they are founded upon and thus not be able to be dissuaded or dislodged or to sink when the storms come, as in this life some kind of storm (test of faith) will surely come.
  2. The word “church” is based on a word “ecclesia” from the Greek, and means “congregation of believers”, so that is why verse 18 ties to each person who is founded upon a Rock being founded upon Jesus Christ and His teachings. Each person thus becomes one of the “congregation of believers” when they do this. Jesus will build His congregation of believers, even today, both numerically and by building each believer into something they weren’t when they started believing in Him, because He will change their heart and help them become a better person–more holy, more loving, more grateful, more compassionate. The gates of hell don’t prevail against any person when that person is founded upon the Rock of salvation, Jesus Christ. They are part of a “congregation of believers” who cannot be dissuaded, dislodged, or will not sink into sinful patterns of behavior because they will know to repent and change. So Satan will have minimal influence with them, and when he does subtly storm them, they will prevail against him through faith and hope in Jesus Christ, and through staying faithful.
I believe this is a real stretch! Christ’s Church is clearly a congregation of believers, and it seems LDS theology is attempting to individualize his promise to us instead of taking that promise for what it is…a promise to his Church, to be there always in defense of the truth he taught, which would include helping our individual spiritual battles, but it would not exclude the whole of the congregation’s shared truths.
  1. Jesus had promised the gift of the Holy Ghost and the continuing guidance and blessing of the Holy Ghost to be with the apostles. He promised to be with the apostles in that way, through the Holy Ghost, and to also be with the apostles by being their “Good Shepherd” still, from heaven, which He is for any heartfelt believer in Him even today.
So , would this would imply that all heartfelt believers in Him were gone after the death of the last apostle. That Jesus’ promises he made to the Apostles were not made to all believers that came to him through the works (Acts) of the Apostles? For over 1500 years anyway…this does not jive…

Revelation 13:7 includes the words “over all kindreds”, which is all-encompassing.

Matthew 21:38 warns of a subtle takeover by Jewish influence (which would mean the Pharisees, since they were a major group who joined the early church membership and yet Paul warns that they couldn’t leave their old traditions behind without seeking to bring them into the new set of beliefs taught by Christ and the apostles.) Matthew 21:43 prophesies of the result of that subtle influence. One also needs to keep in mind that the Old Testament prophesied that the house of Israel would be restored to being true believers in the New Covenant gospel in the latter days on the earth, and would be gathered from far countries.

Daniel 7:21 and 7:25 ties to Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:14, and shows that Satan’s influence was prophesied to temporarily prevail on the earth during a period of time, times, and half a time.

Revelation 14:7 prophesies that an angel would come to the earth “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (which ties back to Revelation 13:7)

This to me is clear misinterpretation. These scriptures are clearly prophesies to a mass apostasy before the end of times, not a over 1500+ year apostasy, restored by new latter day prophet.
  1. God can certainly do His work through imperfect people, and does so. Also, just because the priesthood authority was taken back by Him, that doesn’t mean people didn’t have the light of Christ and also the Holy Ghost from time to time as they sought to live by the truths of the gospel. So the gathering of the New Testament writings was certainly guided by God, and inspired by Him. It is not an “all or nothing” kind of case.
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God certainly does his work through imperfect people. Imperfection is not the subject here. All people born in the stain of original sin are imperfect. What we are talking about is authority. I believe the LDS doctrine is that there was TOTAL apostasy. I mean we do not even believe in the same single God. We both use words like Christ, God the Father, Holy Spirit, and Trinity, but they do not have the same meaning. So it just seems to me that accepting a major undertaking like the canonization of the New Testament (which should never be simplified into “gathering of writings”) from a church that had lost sight of who God is and the truths He taught is odd.

I also find it interesting that you can just completely dismiss the deafening historical silence on this great apostasy. The apostles did continually teach the good news of Christ’s love and the salvation provided to us through him, and by this you could say they defended against heresy, but Jesus chose these apostles, from the moment of their birth He knew which of his people would spread his good news. His rock…Peter and the rest of the apostles taught correctly, and those teachings would have been defended by the faithful, enemies of the church would have written about it to squash the uprising they feared! Every schism, split, periods of heresy from corrupt people within His Church, etc are all recorded in historical writings…but nothing on this total and “great apostasy”.
 
The "Great Aposostasy "is Luther ,Calvin and Zwigli.And throw in B. Young and Joseph Smith and even Muhammad who sat in a cave and received divine instructions while the Mormon founder found a “Golden Tablet” that was translated to him by a being that he could not identify. ?Angel or Devil?

Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love you neighbor as yourself. God keeps it simple for us to be with Him, don’t have to do the sacrifices anymore- isn’t amazing that over the last 4000 yrs we went from killing an animal in sacrifice to God to sacrificing our heart and soul to Him as he gave us His sacrifice on the cross.
 
Mormon Cultist

You have made a number of references…that Mormons do the same as Catholics do…Mormonism makes its claims of God just as a Catholic priest performs the baptism…so to speak…

You are using relativism to justify LDS vs the concrete and recognized reality of Christ instituting the Catholic Church on Peter and the Apostles. Relativism is the plague now affecting the world…free choice, whatever you feel, do it, etc.

Jesus Christ is Absolute Truth. The sacraments on concrete signs…physical signs…indicating the life of the grace of Christ present within. We have had the sacraments since the beginning of the Gospels…baptism…and there is form of baptism that has been going on that can be identified in its entire context with Christ’ baptism at the River Jordan…one step building on the next step. Two thousands years of faith…and all the different charisms of the universal church…but all bearing truth to the same message, Jesus saves, atones, redeems.

The teachings of Joseph Smith do not come from the Apostles – or continue the teachings of the Apostles…so the Great Apostasy issue is still not being proven as an event…there are no sequential teachings to pick up where the Apostles left off that support their teachings and practice of faith. Instead, Smith’s teachings are based on the exaltation of man…for us, this is going backwards…and what was charged against Origin, the Subordination of God. This has moral sense because the First Commandment of God requires we serve Him alone, He has no equal. To do otherwise is entering into idolatry and infidelity…of self.

Also the other issue with Mormonism is the lack of recognition of womanhood…where is the New Eve?..I understand from Parker that a woman will enter the celestial kingdom o her own merits now, not like before where the husband had to give her permission to enter the next life…but it does appear that women have a subordinate position next to men…and there is no acknowledgement of the Mother of Christ.

You are making ecclesiology relative.

True ecclesiology is based on the absolute Truth, Jesus Christ.
 
I converted to Mormonism and it was quite honestly pretty easy to do. From start of the discussion to baptism was about 2 weeks. That was 14 years ago and I know that they have changed the missionary approach since then. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the religion, and I have heard leaders say this on many occasions. The Bible is just a secondary book and is basically kept around so they can say we are Christian because we have the Bible. The funny thing is that most of the doctrines that the Church follows are not even found in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. There is a third book called the Doctrine and Covenants that contains most of the church’s rules and regulations. And if a person does decide to stop going to church, that is their right, however be expected to be “love bombed”. This is basically random members of the ward showing up at your house and telling you that they missed you at church and making sure you are okay. These are usually accompanied with a plate of cookies or some other treat. It gets kind of annoying after awhile.
 
Yes, Tom, we can witness how Mormons apply themselves to Scripture…
 
tomsmith04 said:
I converted to Mormonism and it was quite honestly pretty easy to do. From start of the discussion to baptism was about 2 weeks. That was 14 years ago and I know that they have changed the missionary approach since then. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the religion, and I have heard leaders say this on many occasions. The Bible is just a secondary book and is basically kept around so they can say we are Christian because we have the Bible. The funny thing is that most of the doctrines that the Church follows are not even found in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. There is a third book called the Doctrine and Covenants that contains most of the church’s rules and regulations. And if a person does decide to stop going to church, that is their right, however be expected to be “love bombed”. This is basically random members of the ward showing up at your house and telling you that they missed you at church and making sure you are okay. These are usually accompanied with a plate of cookies or some other treat. It gets kind of annoying after awhile.
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tomsmith I had one love bomber really upset at me for not being at home every time she tried to bring cookies. Lol. I throw the goodies away. Not good for the waistline, and I have a thing for not eating food that is prepared at homes I don’t know…been sick from too many “yummy” potlucks.
 
I just trough here my experience with mormon “love” support.
I have married a mormon lady from a mormon family.
After few difficulties with the help of the Lord she converted to Christianity and wanted to have her name out from LDS register. She wrote a letter. Few months later she received a letter of warning from the president of the stake (I guess is how you say in English his position). In this letter was written that if she was going to go to the end with her choice of getting out from LDS she was going to loose all Lord’s blessings. And she had a month of time or two to change her mind.
Of course, and thanks the Lord, she didn’t.
The problem arised when she decided to be baptized Orthodox. She was asked to bring a certification in which was declared she was out of LDS.
She discovered she was not!
She went to talk to the president of stake and he answered that it was not only her decision but also his decision to let her out!
When she reported to me that I was amazed! And…offended by this kind of attitude and lack of respect.
I went to speak personally with this president in a “convincing way” to give her immediately what she asked. Lord forgive me for that. But like from magic she had the certification the next day.

I wonder how weak or too well mannered people will handle a situation like that…
 
RebeccaJ said:
tomsmith I had one love bomber really upset at me for not being at home every time she tried to bring cookies. Lol. I throw the goodies away. Not good for the waistline, and I have a thing for not eating food that is prepared at homes I don’t know…been sick from too many “yummy” potlucks.
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I would have preferred love bombers. Instead, I got horribly harassed and some LDS tried to kidnap my children and send them to Utah or Idaho because I was no longer a fit father
 
truthsave said:
She went to talk to the president of stake and he answered that it was not only her decision but also his decision to let her out!
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The LDS are reluctant to allow resignations because they reduce the numbers on the rolls. The official figures are laughable, they claim about 14 million “members” but that includes all lapsed until the 110th anniversary of their birthdate!! A practicing LDS statistician estimates current active membership at around 5 million worldwide and reference to census records for those countries that record religious affiliation would tend to support that estimate. The LDS are very economical with the truth, with their blood soaked and polygamous early history they have to be!
 
StevieD said:
The LDS are reluctant to allow resignations because they reduce the numbers on the rolls. The official figures are laughable, they claim about 14 million “members” but that includes all lapsed until the 110th anniversary of their birthdate!! A practicing LDS statistician estimates current active membership at around 5 million worldwide and reference to census records for those countries that record religious affiliation would tend to support that estimate. The LDS are very economical with the truth, with their blood soaked and polygamous early history they have to be!
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Don’t Catholics count the 1 billiion plus as “Catholic”…even though “active” membership is much much less?🤷 Don’t Catholics count ALL who are baptized into the church whether they NEVER darken a church door or faithfully attend a Protestant church for decades?
 
Publisher said:
Don’t Catholics count the 1 billiion plus as “Catholic”…even though “active” membership is much much less?🤷 Don’t Catholics count ALL who are baptized into the church whether they NEVER darken a church door or faithfully attend a Protestant church for decades?
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I suspect it is not as easy to figure out the billion Catholics as it is to figure the very few million Mormons. Additionally, in many of the countries where Catholic numbers are high, it is very difficult to be accurate. The LDS do not have those problems, with the majority of their membership here in the USA.

I know from personal experience that my ex-wife left the LDS Church in 1993 and told her Bishop and Stake President in Michigan. As of a few months ago, she and my kids are STILL listed as members, despite the fact they have not been LDS since 1993.
 
TexanKnight said:
I suspect it is not as easy to figure out the billion Catholics as it is to figure the very few million Mormons. Additionally, in many of the countries where Catholic numbers are high, it is very difficult to be accurate. The LDS do not have those problems, with the majority of their membership here in the USA.

I know from personal experience that my ex-wife left the LDS Church in 1993 and told her Bishop and Stake President in Michigan. As of a few months ago, she and my kids are STILL listed as members, despite the fact they have not been LDS since 1993.
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“Difficult to be accurate” for Catholics…yet the 1 billion plus statistic is still used…without apology or qualifing statements…not even an “estimate” is used…yet if Mormons report all who still are on the rolls in the church…it’s “inaccurate”?

I guess I just have a difficult time getting my mind around the “difference”.🤷
 
Publisher said:
“Difficult to be accurate” for Catholics…yet the 1 billion plus statistic is still used…without apology or qualifing statements…not even an “estimate” is used…yet if Mormons report all who still are on the rolls in the church…it’s “inaccurate”?

I guess I just have a difficult time getting my mind around the “difference”.🤷
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I am sure you do.

I have always heard the billion as “estimated”

I am not certain why it seems difficult for you to understand it is harder to keep track of a billion than a few million. I am also uncertain why it is difficult for you to understand the difference in most of your members in the USA where it is easier to keep track than in, say, Africa or Honduras, etc. But maybe your agenda does not call for you to understand the differences?

Regardless, I was not making excuses, just explaining differences.
 
TexanKnight said:
I am sure you do.

I have always heard the billion as “estimated”

I am not certain why it seems difficult for you to understand it is harder to keep track of a billion than a few million. I am also uncertain why it is difficult for you to understand the difference in most of your members in the USA where it is easier to keep track than in, say, Africa or Honduras, etc. But maybe your agenda does not call for you to understand the differences?

Regardless, I was not making excuses, just explaining differences.
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“Agenda”…I see after all.
 
Publisher said:
Don’t Catholics count the 1 billiion plus as “Catholic”…even though “active” membership is much much less?🤷 Don’t Catholics count ALL who are baptized into the church whether they NEVER darken a church door or faithfully attend a Protestant church for decades?
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As far as I’ve seen, statistics are used by the Catholic Church to “count” it’s total membership. So, their numbers are based on the number of people who answer, “what religion are you?”, with “Catholic”.The Mormon church keeps a database of every member, and so their count is based on the number of records in that database. That is why there is a large discrepancy between the count the Mormon church gives (14M) and the count coming from statistics (5M). As was pointed out, the Mormon church keeps counting people until they have received notification of their death, the 110th birthday is reached, or the person has requested their name be removed from their membership database. Then they stop counting that person as a member.

The Catholic church does not have a central database that contains information for every single Catholic. Sacramental records are kept at the parish. If you want/need a copy of them, you have to go to the parish where the sacraments were performed.

The only actual count of Catholics I’ve seen is an annual report that lists the number of infant baptisms, adult baptisms and confirmations, and # of men who have received the sacrament of holy orders.

It’s just a different culture. Mormons count EVERYTHING they do.
 
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