MERGED Questions about Mormonism

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Exorcist…didnt’ know that…the records are all kept in SLC…but there was an article…‘Salamander’ who showed on temple records…John Paul II being baptized 6 times in various American temples, being made a member of the one in San Diego…

So they record where the baptism was done?..but the record then is sent to SLC?
 
In the Catholic Church, not only are the baptized recorded, but also the life of the parish, historical events, its development with all the pastors and religious who served.

But the Church does not monitor people, people are free, but exhorted – when they attend – to make full use of the life of the Church. Priests are most aware and concerned, when a person leaves the parish. Sometimes they will say why, may be personal issues or the parish community isn’t a right fit, or moving away…or others just fall away.

The Church does not want to intrude on people’s privacy either…and we pray always for our separated brethren, be they fallen away Catholics or Christians in general. We keep all in prayer.
 
I read an article once, but can’t find it, where sacramental records were described as part of sacred tradition, because they are a witness of the faithful. I also read of people who have a fear of these records being lost. In 2000 years there have been a lot of writings, the most important writings have been preserved. While parish records are a witness to faith of generations of Catholic, they’re being lost to time or destroyed doesn’t cause the continuity of faith to fail. I’ve read before where LDS think they are doing the Catholic church a big favor by taking Catholic sacramental records and putting them on microfilm. I can’t see how this could be the Catholic view. IF it was something important, we would do it. Resources are much better spent in ministries that follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia,that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. (1 Tim 1:3-4)
 
Good quote from S. Timothy…

My new question, and don’t mean to derail…is given the fact that in many cases, Mormon children are also supposed to give to the Mormon administration, are the earnings from tithes made public, atleast to its members?

As people don’t believe in alot of what Mormonism teaches, however, does it preserve itself by helping Mormons get work? I was told by non-Catholics, that if you are a Mason, however, they will help you get work. So part of the staying power in Mormonism is somewhere being a recipient of tithing?..like family in need, etc?
 
Good quote from S. Timothy…

My new question, and don’t mean to derail…is given the fact that in many cases, Mormon children are also supposed to give to the Mormon administration, are the earnings from tithes made public, atleast to its members?

As people don’t believe in alot of what Mormonism teaches, however, does it preserve itself by helping Mormons get work? I was told by non-Catholics, that if you are a Mason, however, they will help you get work. So part of the staying power in Mormonism is somewhere being a recipient of tithing?..like family in need, etc?
To my knowledge earnings from tithing are not made public.

Tithing is used to construct temples, chapels, and other buildings. It is also used to prepare manuals, aid in temple and family history work, and for general operations.

Members are also asked to pay fast offerings. Adult members fast for two meals a month and the money they would have paid for the food is to be paid to the Bishop. He then uses these fast offering funds to provide for families in need within the local boundaries. Tithing funds and fast offering funds are kept separate and used for these different purposes.
 
How would you know since collection amounts and how they are used aren’t disclosed?
Because that’s what the Brethren said, silly! 😃

My favorite part of tithing is the beginning of the year “Tithing Settlement”. Because I don’t feel like typing it out, here’s an intro to that little concept:

Mormons are required to attend a Tithing Settlement with the Bishop each year. A member is questioned in a one-on-one interview with the Bishop to ensure the member is paying a full 10%. Those members who are not paying a full 10% lose their temple recommends and are prevented from entering the Temple.

Mormons who lose their temple recommends are in serious jeopardy of losing their Celestial blessings. A Mormon who does not pay tithing cannot enter the temple. If a member cannot get into the temple, the member cannot learn the secret handshake, secret password, secret “new name” and special “sealings”. Without these, the member will be unable to pass Joseph Smith and the angels who guard the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom.

Mormons are commanded that tithing must come first before anything else. Utah has the highest rate of bankruptcies in the United States. Mormons often are told “I cannot pay my bills until I’ve paid my tithing.” Mormons will even pay their tithing rather than give the money to a relative who is on the verge of eviction. Mormon published magazines (Ensign, New Era) constantly stress that tithing must always be paid.

Recently, Mormon Senator Orrin Hatch passed legislation that allowed members to pay a full tithe even while they were in bankruptcy court. (See S. 4044).

(source)
 
Okay, in doing some research for that last post, I found a gem of a “Faith Promoting Story” (as all the ex-Mo’s groan). This is an excerpt of an article that was published in the teenage-marketed “New Era” magazine. I’ve highlighted the points that made my think to myself, Blessed be God I am Catholic!

The 10 Percent Solution - New Era, January 2010

I didn’t think that tithing settlement was such a big deal, but Brother Jacobs, our home teacher, seemed pretty excited about it. He and his son Brian were over and, like always, they asked for my dad’s permission to have a prayer. My dad grunted yes and Brother Jacobs gave the prayer. As he prayed, something he said caught my attention. Brother Jacobs said, “And bless Brother Johnson that he will respond to our message.”



Dad was his usual self. He was willing to talk about most things—sports, his yard, the weather—but not about the Church. We were talking about Dad’s favorite football team when Brother Jacobs blurted out, “Brother Johnson, we want you to come to tithing settlement.”

I thought Brother Jacobs had made a big mistake because Dad got very quiet and looked uncomfortable. Finally he said, “Why should I come to tithing settlement? I don’t pay tithing.”

Now I got quiet and felt uncomfortable. How was Brother Jacobs going to answer Dad’s question?

Brother Jacobs said, “Because the Lord loves you.” Brother Jacobs said the bishop had asked all the home teachers to go to every member and invite them to tithing settlement. He told Dad that he wanted him to go because he wanted our family to have the blessing of going. My dad got quiet again.

Brother Jacobs told Dad that tithing settlement was a simple way for the Lord to bless our lives. If we paid tithing or not the Lord would bless us for going to tithing settlement. Tithing settlement only takes a few minutes, he said, and the bishop does not make anyone feel ashamed or guilty. Brother Jacobs also promised that if Dad took his family to tithing settlement, he would have a happier home and each one of his family would become a better person.

Dad didn’t say much. He really loves us and wants to do what is right for us. When Brother Jacobs asked if he would go to tithing settlement, Dad said yes.



When the bishop asked us in, he greeted Dad like his best friend. I don’t know if that made Dad feel at ease or more uncomfortable.



Now it was my turn to say if I was a full-tithe payer. I was about to say yes, but then I remembered that I had done some yard work last summer and hadn’t tithed the money I got for it. I had to tell the bishop no, I wasn’t a full-tithe payer.

The bishop asked me if I wanted to be a full-tithe payer. I said yes, I guess so. Then he asked if I had the money now. I pulled out my wallet and gave him what I had. It still wasn’t enough. Then I felt some pressed into my hand. It was my dad giving me the money needed to pay a full tithing. I looked at my dad and he said I could pay him back later. I gave the bishop the rest of my tithing, and he wrote down that I was a full-tithe payer. It was a pretty good feeling.

The bishop then asked my mom if she paid a full tithe. She said yes. She had tithed the money she got for watching the neighbor’s children.

It was Dad’s turn to declare. He is a proud man, and I knew he hadn’t paid any tithing this year, so I was surprised that he had come at all. What really surprised me was when my dad pulled an envelope out of his pocket and gave it to the bishop. Dad said it wasn’t a full tithing but it was a start.



Two weeks after tithing settlement Dad came to church for the first time in years. And he has kept going. Just last fast Sunday I found out what had happened.

It was a real spiritual meeting. Even I got up to bear my testimony. And before I was able to sit down, Dad got up to bear his testimony. He told how five years ago he had got out of the habit of going to church. Back in November he began thinking seriously about his children and how the world would affect them as they were growing up. He saw how his children’s friends were influencing them to start to do things that he knew would lead to trouble. This is what he was thinking when the home teachers came over. When Brother Jacobs promised Dad that his family would be better people if he took them to tithing settlement, he knew he had to take the opportunity.

As the time for tithing settlement got close, my dad began to think about why he didn’t pay tithing. He used to pay it and didn’t miss it at all. He only stopped paying because he stopped going to church. My dad thought that if he could believe going to tithing settlement would help his family, then he could believe that paying tithing would also help. My dad said a silent prayer where he promised the Lord that he would start paying tithing and he expected the Lord to keep his promise. Right at that moment, my dad began to change.



He told everyone that tithing was a true principle that had changed his life. And, you know something, he’s right.

**wipes a tear ** :bighanky:

*The moral of the story, boys and girls, is that if you give into awkward extortion by your local religious leaders who don’t know you from a hole in the ground, your life will straighten up and your kids will be so proud he will write about you in a big ol’ magazine! *
 
Recently, Mormon Senator Orrin Hatch passed legislation that allowed members to pay a full tithe even while they were in bankruptcy court. (See S. 4044).
That’s stealing from creditors and giving the loot to the church.
 
Because that’s what the Brethren said, silly! 😃

My favorite part of tithing is the beginning of the year “Tithing Settlement”. Because I don’t feel like typing it out, here’s an intro to that little concept:

Mormons are required to attend a Tithing Settlement with the Bishop each year. A member is questioned in a one-on-one interview with the Bishop to ensure the member is paying a full 10%. Those members who are not paying a full 10% lose their temple recommends and are prevented from entering the Temple.

Mormons who lose their temple recommends are in serious jeopardy of losing their Celestial blessings. A Mormon who does not pay tithing cannot enter the temple. If a member cannot get into the temple, the member cannot learn the secret handshake, secret password, secret “new name” and special “sealings”. Without these, the member will be unable to pass Joseph Smith and the angels who guard the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom.

Mormons are commanded that tithing must come first before anything else. Utah has the highest rate of bankruptcies in the United States. Mormons often are told “I cannot pay my bills until I’ve paid my tithing.” Mormons will even pay their tithing rather than give the money to a relative who is on the verge of eviction. Mormon published magazines (Ensign, New Era) constantly stress that tithing must always be paid.

Recently, Mormon Senator Orrin Hatch passed legislation that allowed members to pay a full tithe even while they were in bankruptcy court. (See S. 4044).

(source)
That was one of my biggest issues with the LDS Church…you had to, in essence, pay your way to heaven
 
That was one of my biggest issues with the LDS Church…you had to, in essence, pay your way to heaven
TexanKnight,
This seems a very poor statement. As a member of the Catholic church don’t you feel a need to pay tithing or some amount equivalent to it? What of Malachi 3:8-10, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Has this promise no validity? Maybe you disagree with the method but certainly not the concept, right?

College students pay excessive amounts to go to school to obtain an education. But when the Lord says we are stealing from him and asks 10% then promises such a marvelous blessing that there is not room enough to receive it, don’t you feel some obligation? Do the LDS and catholic religions very so much in this concept?
 
How would you know since collection amounts and how they are used aren’t disclosed?
Rebecca,
Fast offerings are used at the local level, I have dealt with the funds. If they are not needed locally they are then given to the Stake (a wider area).
 
TexanKnight,
This seems a very poor statement.

no…it is a TRUTHFUL statement. IF you do not pay tithing, you are not allowed to go to the temple. You MUST pay to go to the temple. IF you do not go to the temple, you do not go to heaven. Ergo, you MUST pay money to go to heaven.

As a member of the Catholic church don’t you feel a need to pay tithing or some amount equivalent to it? What of Malachi 3:8-10, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” Has this promise no validity? Maybe you disagree with the method but certainly not the concept, right?

I will start a thread on tithing. Your quote in Malachi is OT. I asked you LDS before if you keep ALL the OT testament commandments, and no one was brave enough to respond. Show me ANY NT command to pay tithing. Should we pay our offerings? Yes. Is a tithe commanded? No. In the Catholic Church, is it required as a payment for heaven? No. In fact, what you pay, should be done in secret, yet in the LDS Church, you are required to give a report.

College students pay excessive amounts to go to school to obtain an education. But when the Lord says we are stealing from him and asks 10% then promises such a marvelous blessing that there is not room enough to receive it, don’t you feel some obligation? Do the LDS and catholic religions very so much in this concept?

I was part of the LDS tithing. Each leader had a different definition of tithing. Some said 10% of your gross. Some said of your net. Some said of what is left after paying your bills. Joseph told people to pay tithing and then told them God told him to the people they had to build him a house. Is that even remotely cool?
 
Rebecca,
Fast offerings are used at the local level, I have dealt with the funds. If they are not needed locally they are then given to the Stake (a wider area).
You knew but did you disclose what you knew? Of course not. Anyone auditing how your ward, stake, etc. brings in funds and use them? Is there a separation of duties? So you are speaking for yourself, for the window you had to a portion of what is collected, in your ward, and you are assuming a lot. People steal. People channel funds to their own pockets. People lie. From accounting clerks to CEOs, or from ward clerks to GAs…who is checking the books, and why is full disclosure in the Mormon church not given?

Red flags. I’ve seen them in Catholic parishes too. I am a business major who has worked for decades writing and implementing accounting sytems that have caught employee theft. Sometimes small amounts, once, over $250k…all these employees were temple going Mormons.

You can’t speak to where the monies are used once they left your ward. You don’t know.
 
Thanks, Janderich,

I think you answered my general question…I was having the impression the tithing is used mainly for building, temples, etc, as you said.

From the Catholic perspective, about tithing…it is only mentioned twice in Scripture.

In the early Church, around 100 AD, the affluent were encouraged to share…but they themselves decide if they want to, and even more, how much. The rest of the community was not asked to tithe.

But the stewardship was used to maintain the means of having a gathering, meaning the bishop and presbyter and deacons in whatever way that served the Church, and that the church was to support the widows and orphans.

But nobody was forced to share nor was a specified amount given for those who could afford to share. My source here is from St. Justin the Martyr.

Also the people themselves prepared the gifts…baking bread and contributing the wine, quite hands on compared to today’s times.

The Church may have had individual dioceses that tithed for a specific time and cause, but we don’t have a 10% amount. Christ made us free with the gift of liberality.

A priest was explaining to a layperson that 10% tithing is very hard on a working man with a family to provide vs an affluent couple making almost twice the amount. So, the Church can’t impose that amount on anyone.

We are greatly encouraged, however, to use our time and talents for building up the kingdom. Our parish contributes as well to secular, non-Catholic service organizations…Each parish responds to its given local in how it can serve. We have values of service, but it is up to the local community, and the diocese in general, in how funds and giving are allocated.
 
  1. How do Mormons view the Bible, especially in relation to the Book of Mormon? Does one take precedence over the other? Is Mormonism sola scriptura? How much weight is given to Joseph Smith’s writings and interpretation of the Bible?
  2. Can non-Mormons go to heaven? How long does it take to become a Mormon, and what does the process entail? What if a Mormon left the church – what would happen to him from the community’s perspective?
Thanks
As I understand from my Mormon friends, the Bible is very respected, no precedence over the other. No sola scriptura, due to continuing revelation from the prophets. My take on Joseph Smith was to bring clarity on the Bible.

Regarding to non Mormons going to heaven – that is up to God for all of us.
One would need to meet with the missionaries, meet committments relative to the doctrine and be baptized – it depends on the person in terms of time.

If one left the church, the church would accept their choice — no pressure to return – being loyal is up to the person.
 
Regarding to non Mormons going to heaven – that is up to God for all of us.
One would need to meet with the missionaries, meet committments relative to the doctrine and be baptized – it depends on the person in terms of time.

.
Mormons dont have a belief in Heaven, but rather a belief in 3 degrees of glory (or kingdoms) with sub levels in those kingdoms

No non-Mormons can make it into the celestial kingdom as per their dogma. One has to be LDS.

Non-Mormons who live good upright live go to the terrestial kingdom
 
Mormons dont have a belief in Heaven, but rather a belief in 3 degrees of glory (or kingdoms) with sub levels in those kingdoms

No non-Mormons can make it into the celestial kingdom as per their dogma. One has to be LDS.

Non-Mormons who live good upright live go to the terrestial kingdom
The 3 three degrees of glory is from Paul so I do not buy it is something the Mormons created.

When did any of us become God in terms of judging another?

Again when did any of become God in terms of judging another, speaking to who goes to any degree of glory?
 
When did any of us become God in terms of judging another?

Again when did any of become God in terms of judging another, speaking to who goes to any degree of glory?
You will have to ask that Mormons that one when it comes to why only Mormons, in their theology, only go to the Celestial kingdom.

It’s why the build temples. It why they do proxy work for the dead (to give them a chance to be Mormon and go to the Celestial kingdom).
It’s why, in their view, the priesthood exists etc etc.

It’s why their 3 fold mission of the LDS church is stated as the following

Preach the Gospel
Perfect the saints
Redeem the dead (temple work)

Their temples would be for naught in their view if anyone could make it into the celestial kingdom who has not accepted their view of the Gospel.

It’s why they dot the world with their temples
 
The 3 three degrees of glory is from Paul so I do not buy it is something the Mormons created.
Just to go back to your original comment about Heaven, the traditional idea of heaven is not believed by Mormons as I have stated. 🙂
 
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