MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[KathleenGee]

They do this in their temples…

Their insensitivity…

And we are the great Roman Church, the abomination, that has corrupted doctrine…and when Mormon temples…where the baptisms for the dead are done…it will be the sign that Mormonism has overtaken Catholicism…sooner than later.

They baptized John Paul II 6 times…they have a treasure trove going back 1,000 years of priests and religious who gave their entire lives to the service of God…that are now having these rituals done on them…

The Vatican said no more parish records…but the Mormons will continue…and in the heavens…they will rule over us…sure. Many Mormons were peeved, some said the Vatican must be really scared, etc. They don’t get it.

I am afraid nothing can be done…you can sue…and they will continue.

Man made, competitive religion…it is more about man than God.

Pray the Psalms…our peace of heart in God is here.

 

[londonstimes]

As a Jew, I critique with great caution of their behavior; as our religion has been accused of much (which was later proven never done) but by then we perished by the sword. On the other hand, this is not rumor. They admit it, apologize, scapegoat a lowly pc operator and go right back to their evil deeds; and then virulently denounce it; only to start it back up, every single time. So they are not only targeting Holocaust victims (though that seems to be one of their faves) but Catholics, their Popes, and God knows who else. I guess I should expect nothing less than a “religion” founded by a man with 36 wives; most of them at the same time and the majority under 15 years old. You know they had to reform once to stay in America (in fact almost every religion including my own has done reformation to live in America) as at times religious doctrine does not always parallel with what is Constitutional. I understand that. It is painful on one person (to stop what he/she always thought was painful, but it is done. Mormons gave up polygamy (or so they said, I wonder now)…the HAVE to give this up. I’ve never seen any behavior in my 57 years more UNconstitutional and even more so, as the new genealogical record keepers of the world, more dangerous. What better way to rule the world than to, on record, have every single person who ever died be Mormon. It is much worse than the Palestianian archeologists who keep getting busted in Israel digging and removing records from the teple under the Al Asqa Mosque. This is very strange stuff.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is true that Mormons are good at revising history. Lately they have a more intense interest in revising Christian history, using it to reinvent themselves. It’s all about an attempt at giving credibility to something that has none.

 

[ParkerD]

As a Jew, I critique with great caution of their behavior; as our religion has been accused of much (which was later proven never done) but by then we perished by the sword. On the other hand, this is not rumor. They admit it, apologize, scapegoat a lowly pc operator and go right back to their evil deeds; and then virulently denounce it; only to start it back up, every single time. So they are not only targeting Holocaust victims (though that seems to be one of their faves) but Catholics, their Popes, and God knows who else. I guess I should expect nothing less than a “religion” founded by a man with 36 wives; most of them at the same time and the majority under 15 years old. You know they had to reform once to stay in America (in fact almost every religion including my own has done reformation to live in America) as at times religious doctrine does not always parallel with what is Constitutional. I understand that. It is painful on one person (to stop what he/she always thought was painful, but it is done. Mormons gave up polygamy (or so they said, I wonder now)…the HAVE to give this up. I’ve never seen any behavior in my 57 years more UNconstitutional and even more so, as the new genealogical record keepers of the world, more dangerous. What better way to rule the world than to, on record, have every single person who ever died be Mormon. It is much worse than the Palestianian archeologists who keep getting busted in Israel digging and removing records from the teple under the Al Asqa Mosque. This is very strange stuff.

Londonstime,

It certainly has caused a hubbub that someone bypassed the rules that they should have known about and cared about, to have submitted names they knew were not to be submitted for temple work.

One should remember, however, that the records of all people are being recorded in heaven, including their ancestry and thus their genealogy and religious heritages, and those ancestries and heritages are known in heaven even moreso than on earth here, and will not be forgotten. There is no such thing as temple work changing the history, changing the ancestry, or anything like that.

A person having sensitivity on this subject, might do well to read here:

jta.org/news/article/2012/02/26/3091850/op-ed-recalling-a-morman-senator-who-tried-to-save-anne-franks-life

and here:

washingtonpost.com/blogs/for-gods-sake/post/baptizing-the-dead-testing-mormon-jewish-relations/2012/02/16/gIQAyBhCIR_blog.html#pagebreak

I know this would not provide much relief from the feelings you have expressed, but if only a little bit, then perhaps that would be worth it for you. A wish of peace to you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Londontimes…
As you just read from a Mormon source, 'get over it.' You just been staked.

 

[ParkerD]

Londontimes…

As you just read from a Mormon source, 'get over it.' ....

KathleenGee,

The sources I provided as links were Jewish writers who did indeed seem to want to convey a message of “how can we bridge this gap?”

The Savior did indeed teach a message of “get over it” (love and forgiveness) and “be a peacemaker” in the Sermon on the Mount, in several powerful and yet simple teachings. But londontimes wouldn’t have the benefit of those teachings, other than perhaps having read them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

KathleenGee,

The sources I provided as links were Jewish writers who did indeed seem to want to convey a message of “how can we bridge this gap?”

The Savior did indeed teach a message of “get over it” (love and forgiveness) and “be a peacemaker” in the Sermon on the Mount, in several powerful and yet simple teachings. But londontimes wouldn’t have the benefit of those teachings, other than perhaps having read them.

Most certainly we can forgive, but forgiveness and “get over it” are two different things. First, Mormons aren’t seeking forgiveness, and even if you were, you don’t ask for it by saying “get over it”. “Get over it” doesn’t equate to “bridge building” either, it’s just bullying at best.

 

[KathleenGee]

I didn’t see like response to the Catholic Church, but I saw attitude by Mormons couldn’t understand beyond their own beliefs, accused the Vatican of being scared, etc…sense of entitlement and can’t grasp what it would be like if the shoe were on the other foot.

Same year Mormons discovered the early Church Fathers and misrepresenting and claiming their beliefs for Mormonism now in Theosis, St. Athanasius, St. Ireaneus, Catholic Catechism 460 to promote Mormonism…always out of context and opposite of the intent of our beliefs…

We won’t be staked!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons gave up polygamy (or so they said, I wonder now)…the HAVE to give this up.

When Utah Mormons (by this I mean those who followed Brigham Young) were told by their religious leaders to stop practicing polygamy, it took 20 or so more years for the polygamous marriages to stop. The were being performed and entered into by their highest leaders after they said they had stopped. There were Mormons at the time who believed polygamy could not be ended, by anyone. These groups broke off and formed their own Mormon groups, that exist today, still practicing polygamy. There were also sanctioned groups who fled to Canada or Mexico and continued practicing polygamy there, these were eventually instructed to stop practicing polygamy. (Mitt Romney comes from one of these groups that fled to Mormon colonies in Mexico. His father was born in Mexico.)

Their doctrines remain on polygamy and they believe polygamy is a celestial,order of things. Converts from Islam who have multiple wives are not required to acknowledge one wife, but can continue in their polygamous relationships. The temple sealing they do for th dead are done for all marriages. So if one of these dead Jews was married more than one time in their lifetime, the Mormons have sealed them as polygamous relationships for “all time and eternity”.

Oh yeah, Mormons give everyone new names in their temple rituals, including the dead. These aren’t recorded anywhere…too sacred, but hey, everyone else’s sacred records and people are fair game.

 

[ParkerD]

Most certainly we can forgive, but forgiveness and “get over it” are two different things. First, Mormons aren’t seeking forgiveness, and even if you were, you don’t ask for it by saying “get over it”. “Get over it” doesn’t equate to “bridge building” either, it’s just bullying at best.

RebeccaJ,

I went along with Kathleen’s choice of words even though I didn’t agree with that choice of words, but what I thought was important was that a person’s health and well-being are enhanced if they don’t carry all the baggage of the ways they perceive they have been “wronged” around with them for the rest of their life. To instead add to that baggage by saying, in effect, “here are more things you ought to carry with you” seems unhelpful to the person who felt wronged in the first place.

A wish of peace to all readers.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,

I went along with Kathleen’s choice of words even though I didn’t agree with that choice of words, but what I thought was important was that a person’s health and well-being are enhanced if they don’t carry all the baggage of the ways they perceive they have been “wronged” around with them for the rest of their life. To instead add to that baggage by saying, in effect, “here are more things you ought to carry with you” seems unhelpful to the person who felt wronged in the first place.

A wish of peace to all readers.

Sometimes, you really do crack me up.

 

[Jerusha]

Perhaps if LDS didn’t carry around all the baggage about how they perceive that the non-Mormon world has wronged them, they might just see how their own culture has wronged them as individuals.

Here is Brigham Young, trying to justify his failure as a prophet in leading many to their deaths in an attempt to populate Utah with poor European converts. (The handcart tragedy.)

JD 4:89, Brigham Young, November 16, 1856
I told him it was a good argument, though it was not exactly according to the will of the people and the will of the Lord, for He wishes to throw temptation and trial before His people, to prove them preparatory to their eternal exaltation; consequently, if the people have not an opportunity of proving themselves before they die, by the ruler of their faith and religion, they cannot expect to attain to so high a glory and exaltation as they could if they had been tried in all things. Yet I believe it is better for the people to lay down their bones by the wayside, than it is for them to stay in the States and apostatize.

 

[SteveVH]

Perhaps if LDS didn’t carry around all the baggage about how they perceive that the non-Mormon world has wronged them, they might just see how their own culture has wronged them as individuals.

Here is Brigham Young, trying to justify his failure as a prophet in leading many to their deaths in an attempt to populate Utah with poor European converts. (The handcart tragedy.)

JD 4:89, Brigham Young, November 16, 1856
I told him it was a good argument, though it was not exactly according to the will of the people and the will of the Lord, for He wishes to throw temptation and trial before His people, to prove them preparatory to their eternal exaltation; consequently, if the people have not an opportunity of proving themselves before they die, by the ruler of their faith and religion, they cannot expect to attain to so high a glory and exaltation as they could if they had been tried in all things. Yet I believe it is better for the people to lay down their bones by the wayside, than it is for them to stay in the States and apostatize.

Kinda sounds like “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord”. They just want to be about the Lord’s business.

 

[Jerusha]

JD 1:2 − p.3, Brigham Young, January 16, 1853
JD 1:50-51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
JD 1:83 Brigham Young, March 27, 1853
JD 1:108 − p.109, Brigham Young, May 8, 1853
JD 2:143, Brigham Young, Dec., 3, 1854
JD 2:172, Brigham Young, February 18, 1855
JD 2:184, Brigham Young, February 18, 1855
JD 2:299, Brigham Young, June 3, 1855
JD 3:247 Brigham Young March 16, 1856
JD 3:266-267 Brigham Young, July 14, 1855
JD 4:31 − p.32, Brigham Young, August 17, 1856
JD 4:53-54, Brigham Young, September 21, 1856
JD 4:89, Brigham Young, November 16, 1856
JD 4:91, Brigham Young, November 16, 1856
JD 4:218, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857
JD 4:219-220, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857
JD 4:298, Brigham Young, March 29, 1857
JD 4:373 − p.374, Brigham Young, June 28, 1857
JD 5:331 − p.332, Brigham Young, October 7, 1857
JD 7:289, Brigham Young, October 9, 1859
JD 7:290 − p.291, Brigham Young, October 9, 1859
JD 8:61, Brigham Young, May 20, 1860
JD 8:115 − p.116, Brigham Young, July 8, 1860
JD 9:312, Brigham Young, July 13, 1862
JD 10:109 − p.110, Brigham Young, March 8, 1863
JD 11:268 − p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866
JD 11:271 − p.272, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866
JD 12:127 − p.128, Brigham Young, December 29th, 1867
JD 13:95, Brigham Young, January 2, 1870
JD 13:264, Brigham Young, October 6, 1870
JD 16:161 − p.162, Brigham Young, August 31, 1873

jhuston.com/jod.htm

And that does not include the remarkable statements from his lieutenants.

 

[ParkerD]

…
Here is Brigham Young, trying to justify his failure as a prophet in leading many to their deaths in an attempt to populate Utah with poor European converts. (The handcart tragedy.)

No, actually that talk was Brigham Young saying that it made more sense to die with one’s “boots on”, “in the saddle”, (even if by freezing in an early winter when some of the members took it upon themselves to leave for Zion later than they were being advised by those who knew the possible danger), than to be added to the larger number of those who died by cholera outbreaks within that period of history. There were less deaths in the Willey and Martin handcart companies than with many of the Western migration overland trail companies and wagon trains. He also said the handcart companies could make as fast or faster time crossing the plains than pioneer companies wagons pulled by oxen; which was true.

Since my wife’s ancestor is among those in the Martin handcart company and continued with a strong testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and passed that on to many descendants now living, those of us really familiar with that account are familiar with the many miracles that occurred to save lives during that excursion, and that they indeed “came to know God in their extremities”. It was not a failure, and it had not been ordered by Brigham Young that they leave so late in the year.

 

[Jerusha]

I am very sorry, Parker, but he specifically said Apostasy, not Cholera.

it had not been ordered by Brigham Young that they leave so late in the year.

That is true. However, the expense of overwintering in Iowa City or Florence (North Omaha) was something that the ranking members supervising the operation would not tolerate. And the possibility that some might be lost to apostasy while overwintering was something they would not want to risk.

Ann Eliza’s father was very angry that he was expected to make the hand-carts as cheaply as possible. Contrary to BY’s instructions that they be made well, to eliminate time wasted in repair.

However, what about this:

JD 4:91, Brigham Young, November 16, 1856
My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; He will perform the rest. If no other assistance could have been had by the companies this season, I think they would have had hundreds and hundreds of fat buffaloes crowding around their camp, so that they could not help but kill them. But, under the circumstances, it was our duty to assist them, and we were none too early in the operation. It was not a rash statement for me to make at our last Conference, when I told you that I would dismiss the Conference, if the people would not turn out, and that I, with my brethren, would go to the assistance of the companies. We knew that our brethren and sisters were on the Plains and in need of assistance, and we had the power and ability to help them, therefore it became our duty to do so. The Lord was not brought under obligation in the matter, so He had put the means in our possession to render them the assistance they needed. But if there had been no other way, the Lord would have helped them, if He had had to send His angels to drive up buffaloes day after day, and week after week. I have full confidence that the Lord would have done His part; my only lack of confidence is, that those who profess to be Saints will not do right and perform their duty.

Here, BY is saying that if they had not rescued the survivors, God would have still sent a miracle.

 

[ParkerD]

I am very sorry, Parker, but he specifically said Apostasy, not Cholera.

That is true. However, the expense of overwintering in Iowa City or Florence (North Omaha) was something that the ranking members supervising the operation would not tolerate. And the possibility that some might be lost to apostasy while overwintering was something they would not want to risk.

Ann Eliza’s father was very angry that he was expected to make the hand-carts as cheaply as possible. Contrary to BY’s instructions that they be made well, to eliminate time wasted in repair.

However, what about this:
Here, BY is saying that if they had not rescued the survivors, God would have still sent a miracle.

Jerusha,

I read the talk. Anyone can look it up on the internet. He did talk about some who had apostatized, but he also talked about cholera that had taken many lives, and was a harder way to die than by being frozen or just dying in one’s sleep. You will find that in the talk if you read the entire discourse.

As to your last statement, you don’t understand his point. He was saying that the congregation was under obligation, knowing the distress of those handcart companies, to do all they could to help them and not assume God would “save” them. His point was that if those handcart pioneers in the mountains (of Wyoming) had been out of reach of being able to be helped by those good people who responded when he asked for a rescue party to go immediately to their aid, then God would have sent buffaloes–but when rescue can be done by human hands and human hearts and hard work, then God would not intervene by a miracle.

This was not a unique one-time message. It was the doctrines of “work” and “service to others” intertwined, which was an oft-repeated message of Brigham Young.

I like the phrase from a talk I heard once,
“work will win when wishy washy wishing won’t”.

 

[Jerusha]

OK I will re-read that and see If I can see it your way. I was reading through every volume, and by the time I got to that, I was just reading words.

Of course, we have plenty of other BY quotes to discuss.

 

[TheExorcist]

Of course, we have plenty of other BY quotes to discuss.

Yeah the Adam-God stuff alone would provide plenty of fodder to last a while

 

[Telstar]

OK I will re-read that and see If I can see it your way. I was reading through every volume, and by the time I got to that, I was just reading words.

Of course, we have plenty of other BY quotes to discuss.

Like this one that I found at Ultimate Wyoming.com: “The 1856 Handcart Disaster”?"Like so many other human disasters, even before all the emigrants were safely housed in Salt Lake, people started looking for someone to blame.

Somebody definitely had to be at fault, but who exactly? A few whisperings of criticism reached the ears of Brigham Young saying that the leadership of the Mormon Church was to blame. A dynamic leader and not given to taking criticism, Young exploded. In a speech given at the Tabernacle on Temple Square, he didn’t mince any words, … ‘If any man, or woman, complains of me or of my Counselors, in regard to the lateness of some of this season’s immigration, let the Curse of God be on them and blast their substance with mildew and destruction, until their names are forgotten from the earth’…"