MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[LivingWaters7]

Ok…So, Jesus saying THIS IS MY BODY is unclear and needs your interpretation?

I believe that Jesus’ words are clear as to what He meant.

And yet you use wonderbread and water. Again, bread and water is prison food. Come out of the LDS prison into truth.

When I have brought bread for our Sacrament, I have not brought wonder bread, so no, I don’t use wonder bread. Others may, and I see nothing wrong with that. Jesus Christ is the living water, and I love the symbolism of using water in the Sacrament (also interestingly, a number of ancient Jewish Christian groups, such as the Ebionites and the Nazarenes abstained from wine and used water in their rite). I do not mock what you consider to be sacred, so please do not mock what I consider to be sacred by referring to it as “prison food”. “Prison food” is not blessed and sanctified, it does not renew covenants, it does not invite the Spirit.

 

[TexanKnight]

I believe that Jesus’ words are clear as to what He meant.

Ah…so now YOU can read His mind? He did not say what you like so you will tell us what he MEANT? Interesting. Tell me, did you ever serve a mission?

When I have brought bread for our Sacrament, I have not brought wonder bread, so no, I don’t use wonder bread.

I see. You are good enough to tell us what Jesus meant, but not good enough to understand what I meant? Interesting again

Others may, and I see nothing wrong with that. Jesus Christ is the living water, and I love the symbolism of using water in the Sacrament (also interestingly, a number of ancient Jewish Christian groups, such as the Ebionites and the Nazarenes abstained from wine and used water in their rite).

So, Jesus used wine…and said to use wine…but you have decided that water will suffice. More interesting Seems Jesus never needed to be here since we have you to tell us what He really meant and we have you to change what Jesus said.

I do not mock what you consider to be sacred, so please do not mock what I consider to be sacred by referring to it as “prison food”.

I was not mocking you and you know it. So do not play the victim I am stating a fact. Prison food is bread and water and I consider you to be in prison.

“Prison food” is not blessed and sanctified, it does not renew covenants, it does not invite the Spirit.

Neither does your bread and water. I am sorry for that. Please come home to the truth

 

[LivingWaters7]

Ah…so now YOU can read His mind? He did not say what you like so you will tell us what he MEANT? Interesting. Tell me, did you ever serve a mission?

No, that is not what I said. As I have already stated, Latter-day Saints believe what Jesus Christ says. I agree with exactly what He said. The difference is in interpretation of us words. This is no different than any of the other statements of Christ found in the Bible. Jesus meant what He said when He held up bread and said “this is my body”, just like how He meant what He said when He said “I am the door”, “I am the gate”, etc. This is no different than other seemingly clear cut verses in the Bible that are interpreted in a way different than the obvious, and this is of course not unique to Latter-day Saints, and I have observed Catholic apologetic arguments that do the same.

I see. You are good enough to tell us what Jesus meant, but not good enough to understand what I meant? Interesting again

This does not directly engage my statement.

So, Jesus used wine…and said to use wine…but you have decided that water will suffice. More interesting Seems Jesus never needed to be here since we have you to tell us what He really meant and we have you to change what Jesus said.

That is of course incorrect. I have not decided anything. We believe that God has provided revelation in these days on the matter. Interestingly, the Eastern Catholics use leavened bread, yet Jesus Christ used unleavened bread, so by your logic they are incorrect.

I was not mocking you and you know it. So do not play the victim I am stating a fact. Prison food is bread and water and I consider you to be in prison.

That is your opinion, and it is disrespectful in what I assume is supposed to be a civil discourse on my faith.

Neither does your bread and water. I am sorry for that. Please come home to the truth

Again, that is your opinion. I have my own opinions on what you hold to be sacred of course, yet I do not disrespect your beliefs. I assume that we can have a charitable, adult discussion without the repeated insults, personal jabs, and proselytizing (which I read is against forum rules, correct).

 

[CarterJoe]

Again, that is your opinion. I have my own opinions on what you hold to be sacred of course, yet I do not disrespect your beliefs. I assume that we can have a charitable, adult discussion without the repeated insults, personal jabs, and proselytizing (which I read is against forum rules, correct).

A question? If you do not in fact direspect our beliefs then how can be part of a church that believes in Christ so much call our church “The church of the devil”? Is that not disrespect itself, not only to us Catholics but to Jesus Christ, The Savior and the one who gave us His church. The church He said He would never leave?

 

[TexanKnight]

No, that is not what I said.

Sure it is. Jesus said, “this is MY BODY” yet you believe he MEANT something else.

That is of course incorrect. I have not decided anything. We believe that God has provided revelation in these days on the matter. Interestingly, the Eastern Catholics use leavened bread, yet Jesus Christ used unleavened bread, so by your logic they are incorrect.

You use bread and water. Jesus said use unleavened bread and wine. How sad that you believe your alleged prophets trump Jesus.

That is your opinion, and it is disrespectful in what I assume is supposed to be a civil discourse on my faith.

Again, you are playing victim. It does not suit you. It is not disrespectful, nor was it meant that way. It was meant to show similarities.

Again, that is your opinion. I have my own opinions on what you hold to be sacred of course, yet I do not disrespect your beliefs.

Really? Your missionaries (you never answered if you were one) tell people what they believe is wrong. Your Church has a history of calling the Catholic Church the Church of the Devil. Your temple ceremonies portray Catholics priests as agents of Satan (or at least did until I stopped attending in 1989). Please do not claim disrespect where none is intended while painting Catholics they way you do.

I assume that we can have a charitable, adult discussion without the repeated insults, personal jabs, and proselytizing (which I read is against forum rules, correct).

I assume you can discuss without taking offense where none is meant and not play the victim. I have only your best in mind and no ill will. I simply speak the truth and am here to correct when needed.

 

[LivingWaters7]

A question? If you do not in fact direspect our beliefs then how can be part of a church that believes in Christ so much call our church “The church of the devil”? Is that not disrespect itself, not only to us Catholics but to Jesus Christ, The Savior and the one who gave us His church. The church He said He would never leave?

I believe that this link sufficiently addresses this claim:

mormonfortress.com/ga.html

 

[LivingWaters7]

Sure it is. Jesus said, “this is MY BODY” yet you believe he MEANT something else.

I have already addressed this (interesting that you put an emphasis on “MY BODY”, an emphasis that of course is not found within the text). Jesus means what He says, just like how He meant what He said in other instances. The issue is whether He meant what He said literally or metaphorically. Either way, it does not mean that Jesus was lying or didn’t mean what He said.

You use bread and water. Jesus said use unleavened bread and wine. How sad that you believe your alleged prophets trump Jesus.

So you cannot address how your Eastern Catholic brethren, in the same Church as you, can use leavened bread when “Jesus said use unleavened bread”. Your argument therefore condemns your own Church.

Again, you are playing victim. It does not suit you. It is not disrespectful, nor was it meant that way. It was meant to show similarities.

Yes, it was a disrespectful attempt at showing “similarity” where there is none. The LDS Sacrament is a sacred ordinance that we believe is important in remembering our Savior Jesus Christ, renewing our covenants with God, and invites the Spirit to be with us. To compare what someone holds to be sacred to prison food is…wow.

Really? Your missionaries (you never answered if you were one) tell people what they believe is wrong. Your Church has a history of calling the Catholic Church the Church of the Devil. Your temple ceremonies portray Catholics priests as agents of Satan (or at least did until I stopped attending in 1989). Please do not claim disrespect where none is intended while painting Catholics they way you do.

See above, it was disrespectful.

I assume you can discuss without taking offense where none is meant and not play the victim. I have only your best in mind and no ill will. I simply speak the truth and am here to correct when needed.

See above. You speak what you believe to be the truth, as do I. We can do that respectfully and without making base comparisons.

 

[CarterJoe]

@Livingwater: So this is what was being said; It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ’saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.(McConkie [1958], 130.)

Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he [Nephi] designated the Catholic Church as ‘the mother of harlots’… (Ibid., 314-315.)

[Under the heading, “Church of the Devil”] The Roman Catholic Church specifically – singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5). (Ibid., 129.)

Wow, kind of sounds like your church there. The devil clearly has control of your church. This is what he does. Tells lies against the True Church of Christ. He wants you to try and destroy Christ church. But it wont happen. I do like how the link you posted says “Mormon Myths”. They say yes we are, then say no we arent. Which is it? You are so blinded by deception you dont know whats right. This is America, we have means. Not like those who your missionaries go to in 3rd world countries who cant look up these lies. Why do you come here with this B.S? Do you think we are all dumb people who are so easily decieved?

 

[LivingWaters7]

@Livingwater: So this is what was being said; It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ’saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.(McConkie [1958], 130.)

Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he [Nephi] designated the Catholic Church as ‘the mother of harlots’… (Ibid., 314-315.)

[Under the heading, “Church of the Devil”] The Roman Catholic Church specifically – singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5). (Ibid., 129.)

Wow, kind of sounds like your church there. The devil clearly has control of your church. This is what he does. Tells lies against the True Church of Christ. He wants you to try and destroy Christ church. But it wont happen. I do like how the link you posted says “Mormon Myths”. They say yes we are, then say no we arent. Which is it? You are so blinded by deception you dont know whats right. This is America, we have means. Not like those who your missionaries go to in 3rd world countries who cant look up these lies. Why do you come here with this B.S? Do you think we are all dumb people who are so easily decieved?

It seems as if you did not actually read the article that I posted. No, it does not “yes we are, then say no we aren’t”. Please do read the actual article. In fact, it is rather upfront in acknowledging the personal opinions of various Latter-day Saint leaders in the past.

 

[CarterJoe]

I read enough guy.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I read enough guy.

From your post you did not understand what the article was actually saying. As stated, it does not argue “yes we are, then say no we aren’t”.

 

[CarterJoe]

What your article said is that one man stated we were. the church says we arent.

 

[TexanKnight]

I have already addressed this (interesting that you put an emphasis on “MY BODY”, an emphasis that of course is not found within the text).

Yes…because it appears those two words were throwing you. Though, I find it odd that you are worried about what is in the text. Tell me, is using water in the text?

Jesus means what He says, just like how He meant what He said in other instances. The issue is whether He meant what He said literally or metaphorically. Either way, it does not mean that Jesus was lying or didn’t mean what He said.

Really? So, you think Jesus was not smart enough to say “this is symbolic of my Body?” You think He just chose those words so people like you could determine His real intent?

So you cannot address how your Eastern Catholic brethren, in the same Church as you, can use leavened bread when “Jesus said use unleavened bread”. Your argument therefore condemns your own Church.

Nope. Red Herring argument. I am talking about the LDS Church. You are like the kids I taught in 4th grade. If one got in trouble, they would point and say, “Johnnie did it too!”

Yes, it was a disrespectful attempt at showing “similarity” where there is none. The LDS Sacrament is a sacred ordinance that we believe is important in remembering our Savior Jesus Christ, renewing our covenants with God, and invites the Spirit to be with us. To compare what someone holds to be sacred to prison food is…wow.

If you truly want to be the victim, then I will let you be the victim. I am sorry that you were offended. I find it odd you believe you can read into Jesus’ intent but not see my intent even after it is explained. Since you are incapable, I apologize. I had no intent to offend.

See above, it was disrespectful.

No, it wasn’t. But since you wish to be offended, I will apologize for offending you. Now, I expect you will apologize for all the horrible things your church has said about the Cath9lic Church. Do you believe they were all wrong?

See above. You speak what you believe to be the truth, as do I. We can do that respectfully and without making base comparisons.

To me, you are in prison. To me, what you do as a sacrament embodies that belief. Now, for you to be offended over something that trivial means you must really hate all the horrible things said by your prophets and leaders about the Catholic Church. You believe they were all wrong about us…right?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

It is highly recommended that posters use charity in posting.
If you cannot emotionally handle the thread, I suggest you move on.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yes…because it appears those two words were throwing you. Though, I find it odd that you are worried about what is in the text. Tell me, is using water in the text?

That issue has of course already been addressed. Also, those two words are not throwing me. Again, we agree with what our Savior has stated. We differ on what it means that the bread is His body.

Really? So, you think Jesus was not smart enough to say “this is symbolic of my Body?” You think He just chose those words so people like you could determine His real intent?

Oh dear. For those that have studied metaphors, parables, etc., we know that Christ did not have to outright say “this is symbolic of my body”.

Nope. Red Herring argument. I am talking about the LDS Church. You are like the kids I taught in 4th grade. If one got in trouble, they would point and say, “Johnnie did it too!”

No, it is not a red herring argument, because my argument is showing that your own is fallacious, since your own Church does not stand up to the criteria that you are attempting to judge Latter-day Saints on. You say “Jesus said use unleavened bread”, yet the Eastern Catholic sui iuris churches in your own Church use leavened bread. Your argument therefore doesn’t make sense.

To me, you are in prison. To me, what you do as a sacrament embodies that belief. Now, for you to be offended over something that trivial means you must really hate all the horrible things said by your prophets and leaders about the Catholic Church. You believe they were all wrong about us…right?

I of course would never refer to the sacred rites of someone’s faith that they hold dear as “trivial”, no matter how much I may disagree with them or believe them to be ineffective. Wow.

 

[TexanKnight]

That issue has of course already been addressed. Also, those two words are not throwing me. Again, we agree with what our Savior has stated. We differ on what it means that the bread is His body.

I see. So you oppose me adding highlight to the text, but you do not mind adding water to the text. Very LDS. And yes, HIS BODY. But, we all know that you know more than Christ. So you can tell us what He really meant to say…right?

Oh dear. For those that have studied metaphors, parables, etc., we know that Christ did not have to outright say “this is symbolic of my body”.

Typically, when Christ did so, He then explained. Or did you miss that? Here, He was very clear. At least, to those of us who do not believe we should tell others what Jesus REALLY meant

No, it is not a red herring argument, because my argument is showing that your own is fallacious, since your own Church does not stand up to the criteria that you are attempting to judge Latter-day Saints on. You say “Jesus said use unleavened bread”, yet the Eastern Catholic sui iuris churches in your own Church use leavened bread. Your argument therefore doesn’t make sense.

Red herring argument. "Johnny does it too, teacher!

I of course would never refer to the sacred rites of someone’s faith that they hold dear as “trivial”, no matter how much I may disagree with them or believe them to be ineffective. Wow.

Funny how you dodged the point about all the awful things your leaders have said about the Catholic Church. Wow. And your silence means you accept it. Double WOW. So, you accept all the horrible things said about our Church and you act offended over this? More LDS hypocrisy.

Please, brother. Take off the blinders and come Home. We all accept you with open arms

 

[LivingWaters7]

I see. So you oppose me adding highlight to the text, but you do not mind adding water to the text. Very LDS. And yes, HIS BODY. But, we all know that you know more than Christ. So you can tell us what He really meant to say…right?

Who said that I was adding water to the text? That of course is not what I stated, and Latter-day Saints quite clearly have stated in this thread that we acknowledge that our Savior used wine at the Lord’s Supper.

Typically, when Christ did so, He then explained. Or did you miss that? Here, He was very clear. At least, to those of us who do not believe we should tell others what Jesus REALLY meant

I believe that it is clear what Christ meant based on His statements throughout the New Testament related to His body, flesh, etc.

Red herring argument. "Johnny does it too, teacher!

Sorry, this does not engage my argument. It is clear that your argument was incorrect and condemned your own Church, hence it is invalid.

Funny how you dodged the point about all the awful things your leaders have said about the Catholic Church. Wow. And your silence means you accept it. Double WOW. So, you accept all the horrible things said about our Church and you act offended over this? More LDS hypocrisy.

It is very amusing that you state this after stating in another thread-“And you have spoken to all the other readers? You just lost all credibility with that. Or maybe you spoke without their consent. That seems to be an LDS habit. My analogy was right on target. You know it. I know it.” Very interesting.

 

[TexanKnight]

Who said that I was adding water to the text? That of course is not what I stated, and Latter-day Saints quite clearly have stated in this thread that we acknowledge that our Savior used wine at the Lord’s Supper.

I believe that it is clear what Christ meant based on His statements throughout the New Testament related to His body, flesh, etc.

Sorry, this does not engage my argument. It is clear that your argument was incorrect and condemned your own Church, hence it is invalid.

It is very amusing that you state this after stating in another thread-“And you have spoken to all the other readers? You just lost all credibility with that. Or maybe you spoke without their consent. That seems to be an LDS habit. My analogy was right on target. You know it. I know it.” Very interesting.

and still. you add words to the Bible, second guess Christ, and apparently agree with all the awful things your leaders say about Catholic Church yet act offended over abread and water comment. I think you have been very LDS.

This is going nowhere. And after your alleged being offended while at the same time acquiescing to the horrible things said by your leaders about the Catholic Church, I truly must wipe the dust off my feet.

I will pray for you. Every night. I will ask God to show you the way.

Now, it is clear you need the last word. You may have it.

 

[LivingWaters7]

and still. you add words to the Bible, second guess Christ, and apparently agree with all the awful things your leaders say about Catholic Church yet act offended over abread and water comment. I think you have been very LDS.

This of course shows clear misunderstanding of all statements presented. I am not adding words to the Bible, since I have clearly stated numerous times that our Lord and Savior used wine in the Lord’s Supper (and on the point of unleavened bread, you never did engage the fact that you claim that Jesus said to use unleavened bread (your exact words), yet your own Church allows for the use of leavened bread in the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Catholic churches, rendering your argument fallacious). I do not second guess Christ, I believe what He said. The difference is in interpretation, not denying His words. And no, it is not “abread (sic) and water comment”, it is a comment regarding a sacred ordinance that I hold to be very important in my faith. I have not disparaged the rites of your Church, so I appreciate it if you do not make sad comparisons to one of the sacred ordinances of my Church to “prison food”. Wow.

This is going nowhere.

I agree. Since you haven’t actually engaged my arguments, we have been going in circles in this and other threads where you continue to do the same.

And after your alleged being offended while at the same time acquiescing to the horrible things said by your leaders about the Catholic Church, I truly must wipe the dust off my feet.

I of course did not acquiesce to anything (please cite the specific post if I did so).

 

[Stephen168]

Latter-day Saints quite clearly know that Christ said “This is my body”. We are not denying what Christ said. What we do deny is the interpretation that saying “This is my body” necessitates a transformation of the bread into the flesh of Christ (while still appearing to be bread) anymore than my holding up an orange and saying “This is the Sun” necessitates a transformation of the orange into the Sun. No one is being misleading here (and it is disingenuous to say so), we differ on our interpretations of what Jesus Christ said.

What is your interpretation of what Christ said?