MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[jrtrent]

How can you not believe in the Trinity when 1 John 5:7 is very clear that the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are ALL God? Also, how can you believe in the Book of Mormon if the Bible says not to in Galatians 1:8-9? Do you not realize how the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, the true Word of God? I will pray for all of the Mormons to be led to true Christianity. I would like replies to see what Mormons think of this evidence. Thank you. God bless.

Sometimes it’s best just to go to the source. The LDS church has a number of useful articles explaining their teachings. Here’s a link to one on the trinity.:

lds.org/liahona/1998/03/the-father-son-and-holy-ghost?lang=eng

Their site also has information on their beliefs concerning the Bible. Included is this statement, “The Holy Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.”

Like some other religions, the LDS church doesn’t think the Bible is the only witness or source of information about Christ and the church. Another brief quote:

In addition to the Bible, Latter-day Saints reverence and study the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the words of modern prophets and apostles. All these sources of eternal truth work together to establish, clarify, and testify of the plan of our Heavenly Father and to bring people unto Jesus Christ.

Obviously, they see these various sources as being in harmony rather than conflict; though, as another poster mentioned, they believe that some error has crept into the Bible over time. Similarly, for Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, and perhaps others, the Bible is but one source of information, with oral tradition, church councils, papal decrees, and/or the magisterium all working together. Some sola scriptura Protestants will take issue with teachings from any and all of these groups because they don’t line up with his understanding of certain Bible passages. But I think each group of sola scriptura Protestants also has a tradition they follow and believe to be correct, or else there couldn’t be so many diverse and contradictory interpretations of scripture, leading to so many varied sets of teaching and practice; and this by equally serious, God-loving men, doing their best to follow Christ in the manner they believe He wants them to do it.

 

[pmccombs]

Sometimes it’s best just to go to the source. The LDS church has a number of useful articles explaining their teachings. Here’s a link to one on the trinity.:

Great post, jrtrent.

 

[komeeks18]

I’ve always thought of the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead as fairly equivalent to the idea of the Trinity. We accept that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all God and united in a fundamental way. However, we also believe they are separate individuals. One understanding of the Trinity also has the three united yet separate. I think where Mormons depart a bit from the orthodox understanding is that we claim that the Father and the Son have immortal bodies of flesh. I don’t see that this ought to be a huge doctrinal issue for other Christians, since most of them admit that God made himself flesh at one point anyway. That God should have the ability to present Himself as man with a body shouldn’t be too surprising in that case.

Mormons don’t think the Book of Mormon is preaching “another gospel.” Mormons believe it preaches the same gospel that Paul received by revelation, and that it was written for the purpose of restoring this truth to the earth after it had been gradually lost over years of apostasy (e.g. corruption introduced into the scriptures, loss of authority, loss of revelation, etc). That is the Mormon viewpoint, anyway. Needless to say, Mormons also pray for others to be “led to true Christianity” and many of them are very certain that their church is True.

Isn’t Mormonism kind of polytheistic? 3 separate beings are all gods? Men can become gods? It’s on the extreme side to me. And with the Book of Mormon, I feel like Mormons have never studied the Bible in depth if they believe in the BoM. Jesus said the Church that Peter built that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. That’s another issue, that Mormons don’t believe people will go to Hell, and that everyone will be saved no matter what. Joseph Smith started a Church built on lies, and he’s affected so many people’s lives, and misled them. It’s also very sad how when many people find out about the falseness of the Mormon Church, is that they turn away from God completely. Many become atheist or agnostic, because they aren’t able to trust any organized religion. It’s very saddening.

Sometimes it’s best just to go to the source. The LDS church has a number of useful articles explaining their teachings. Here’s a link to one on the trinity.:

lds.org/liahona/1998/03/the-father-son-and-holy-ghost?lang=eng

Their site also has information on their beliefs concerning the Bible. Included is this statement, “The Holy Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.”

Like some other religions, the LDS church doesn’t think the Bible is the only witness or source of information about Christ and the church. Another brief quote:

Obviously, they see these various sources as being in harmony rather than conflict; though, as another poster mentioned, they believe that some error has crept into the Bible over time. Similarly, for Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, and perhaps others, the Bible is but one source of information, with oral tradition, church councils, papal decrees, and/or the magisterium all working together. Some sola scriptura Protestants will take issue with teachings from any and all of these groups because they don’t line up with his understanding of certain Bible passages. But I think each group of sola scriptura Protestants also has a tradition they follow and believe to be correct, or else there couldn’t be so many diverse and contradictory interpretations of scripture, leading to so many varied sets of teaching and practice; and this by equally serious, God-loving men, doing their best to follow Christ in the manner they believe He wants them to do it.

I’ve researched a lot about the LDS Church, and they’re beliefs are very different from any of the Christian denominations. There is historical evidence that the Bible is the same now as it was in Biblical times (the Dead Sea Scrolls), there’s no proof that the BoM is true, except for the “burning in the bosom”, but God says not to rely on feelings.

“More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it?” ~Jeremiah 17:9

To trust and believe in something, we have to study the true Word of God, the Bible, like the Jews did to determine if it’s true.

“These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.” ~Acts 17:11

Everything in the BoM needs to be compared to the Bible first, before believing in it, because the Bible was the “first” (well, and only, but not to Mormons) Word of God, and the Bible says to be careful about false teachers.

“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent.” ~Romans 16:17-18

“But if a prophet presumes to speak a word in my namel that I have not commanded, or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. Should you say to yourselves, “How can we recognize that a word is one the LORD has not spoken?”, if a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD but the word does not come true, it is a word the LORD did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not fear him.” ~Deuteronomy 18:20-22

Many of Joseph Smith’s prophecies did not come true. It is so easy to prove the LDS Church wrong, I don’t understand why Mormons will believe the BoM over the Bible. The Bible came “first”. It contains the truth.

 

[TexanKnight]

Great post, jrtrent.

The problem with going to the LDS Church for answers is that their answers are a movjng target. Theur doctrine and beliefs and teachings change all the time. Joseph and BY would not recognize the LDS Church of today

 

[HonoraDominum]

Yes, thank you. I just cannot wrap my brain around how anyone can believe in the Book of Mormon if they’ve read the Bible. But I really hope a Mormon will reply so I can understand their insight.

It’s hard to explain to someone who was not raised Mormon, but being taught the Bible in the LDS church has an amazing bias against the truths that are taught in the Catholic church. Let me give you an example that leapt out at me. In perusing my old Quad (the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price scripture combo) recently, I came across this section of my bible:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAAAAHY/-lUYIvVVM1s/s522/ldscriptures.jpg

When I looked at this, and the way it was marked up, it blew my mind. As a Catholic, the emphasis is always on “Thy will be done”. The Mormon emphasis is what they call the “Atonement”, which is basically the emphasis on the burdens of all of the sin of mankind being given to Christ to bear in the garden. The Catholic emphasis, however, is on the struggle of Christ to accept the burden of the sacrifice that He is about to make, with the final resolution being that he does accept the cup to drink and begins his Passion. It’s kind of hard to describe, really, but if you want to learn more about the atonement you can read another post where I talked about it at length.

Another scripture that completely hit me over the head the first time I heard it in Mass was Matthew 15:11.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 15:11[/BIBLEDRB]

In context, this makes so much more sense. The Pharisees are criticizing Christ for not going through the ritual washing of hands before eating. Christ calls them out for the hypocrites they are, citing their violation of the fourth commandment as one of their more grievous crimes against God. Then he says it’s not what a person puts into their mouth that is sinful, but the words that come out of it. When I heard this, I thought, how in the world can the Word of Wisdom be true if Christ says that what is put into the mouth is not sinful?

Then I thought, no, gluttony is a sin, as is drunkenness, which is a subset of gluttony. However, in further pondering on the subject, I realized that Christ chiding the Pharisees about their nitpicking of the law was more of him calling them out on their own pride, and saying the phrase about what is put into the mouth was making the point that the law had changed. It also made me realize that for Mormons to say that I cannot go to the Temple because I drink coffee, and therefore am jeopardizing my eternal salvation because of Starbucks, just didn’t make sense according to the teachings of Christ. To judge a person unworthy of salvation because they have a glass of wine or two with dinner is completely against both the letter and spirit of the law as taught by Christ in this scripture.

But none of this ever caught my attention as a Mormon. I know I had read this scripture before, as I had “scripture chased” in Seminary for years. I truly believe as a Mormon, I was in the same state as the man in Mark 8, who when Christ put spit on his eyes and was asked if he could see, responded “I see men like trees, walking”. I could vaguely see something that resembled the true Gospel of Christ, but it was still obscured. With the gift of sanctifying grace received at my baptism and confirmation, Christ healed my spiritual blindness and I could truly give praise and glory to His holy name with a clear vision of who He really is.

 

[pmccombs]

Joseph and BY would not recognize the LDS Church of today

I agree with you there, Texan Knight.

 

[pmccombs]

Isn’t Mormonism kind of polytheistic? 3 separate beings are all gods? Men can become gods? It’s on the extreme side to me. And with the Book of Mormon, I feel like Mormons have never studied the Bible in depth if they believe in the BoM. Jesus said the Church that Peter built that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. That’s another issue, that Mormons don’t believe people will go to Hell, and that everyone will be saved no matter what. Joseph Smith started a Church built on lies, and he’s affected so many people’s lives, and misled them. It’s also very sad how when many people find out about the falseness of the Mormon Church, is that they turn away from God completely. Many become atheist or agnostic, because they aren’t able to trust any organized religion. It’s very saddening.

Mormons don’t really think of themselves as polytheistic, though they’ll talk about “gods”. There are various types of trinitarianism, and I see the Mormon godhead along those lines. You have modalism, tritheism, etc. But orthodox theology claims that “God is tri-une as persons but in nature one God.” There are three distinctions in the trinity, but they all paradoxically share in the oneness of God. Of course, Muslims accuse all Christians of polytheism, like many Christians accuse Mormons. Polytheism is a bad word, apparently.

Oh, Mormons believe in Hell all right. I think you got your information wrong. We talk about Spirit Prison and Outer Darkness.

It’s not just Mormons who think they see something wrong with their Church who turn away from God; there’s a huge movement away from all religion happening right now.

I’ve researched a lot about the LDS Church, and they’re beliefs are very different from any of the Christian denominations. There is historical evidence that the Bible is the same now as it was in Biblical times (the Dead Sea Scrolls), there’s no proof that the BoM is true, except for the “burning in the bosom”, but God says not to rely on feelings.

Well, I’m familiar with quite a bit of historical evidence that claims the Bible has been substantially corrupted. Actually, whole books have been written on the topic.

To trust and believe in something, we have to study the true Word of God, the Bible, like the Jews did to determine if it’s true.

I don’t know about that. A Jewish friend of mine, an atheist, claims that most Jews are atheist today. Oh, and Isaiah Gafni, professor of Judaism, made the same claim, if I recall. The Jews, after their many years of study, are apparently coming to the conclusion that their own stuff isn’t true.

Everything in the BoM needs to be compared to the Bible first, before believing in it, because the Bible was the “first” (well, and only, but not to Mormons) Word of God, and the Bible says to be careful about false teachers.

I think the Vedic texts were first. Why aren’t we comparing the bible to those?

Many of Joseph Smith’s prophecies did not come true. It is so easy to prove the LDS Church wrong, I don’t understand why Mormons will believe the BoM over the Bible. The Bible came “first”. It contains the truth.

It’s so easy to prove all churches wrong, I guess. Faithful people don’t stand or fall with the proofs, though; they are compelled by other things, often mysterious and deep.

 

[komeeks18]

Mormons don’t really think of themselves as polytheistic, though they’ll talk about “gods”. There are various types of trinitarianism, and I see the Mormon godhead along those lines. You have modalism, tritheism, etc. But orthodox theology claims that “God is tri-une as persons but in nature one God.” There are three distinctions in the trinity, but they all paradoxically share in the oneness of God. Of course, Muslims accuse all Christians of polytheism, like many Christians accuse Mormons. Polytheism is a bad word, apparently.

Oh, Mormons believe in Hell all right. I think you got your information wrong. We talk about Spirit Prison and Outer Darkness.

It’s not just Mormons who think they see something wrong with their Church who turn away from God; there’s a huge movement away from all religion happening right now.

Well, I’m familiar with quite a bit of historical evidence that claims the Bible has been substantially corrupted. Actually, whole books have been written on the topic.

I don’t know about that. A Jewish friend of mine, an atheist, claims that most Jews are atheist today. Oh, and Isaiah Gafni, professor of Judaism, made the same claim, if I recall. The Jews, after their many years of study, are apparently coming to the conclusion that their own stuff isn’t true.

I think the Vedic texts were first. Why aren’t we comparing the bible to those?

It’s so easy to prove all churches wrong, I guess. Faithful people don’t stand or fall with the proofs, though; they are compelled by other things, often mysterious and deep.

Well, I went on the Chat on mormon.org where you can talk to their missionaries, and they told me that Christ’s sacrifice was for all, and even those who deny Him will not be sent to Hell. And have you not heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

[jrtrent]

Well, I went on the Chat on mormon.org where you can talk to their missionaries, and they told me that Christ’s sacrifice was for all, and even those who deny Him will not be sent to Hell.

“Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36-38; 76:28-33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31-33, 36-37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).”
lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng

 

[komeeks18]

“Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36-38; 76:28-33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31-33, 36-37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).”
lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng

I was just saying what the missionaries told me. They said something about the sons of perdition, but they did not explain it, nor did they try to. They kept repeating that they believed God’s love for His children was more important than their rejection, and that Christ’s sacrifice was for all. It is just what they told me, so I assumed it was true. They’re missionaries. Either way, this is not what the Holy Bible describes about salvation and
Hell.

 

[Syrokal]

I don’t understand why Mormons will believe the BoM over the Bible. The Bible came “first”. It contains the truth.

I don’t understand why Christians will believe the NT over the OT the OT came “first” it contains the truth!

You follow?

 

[Z_Ninja]

I don’t understand why Christians will believe the NT over the OT the OT came “first” it contains the truth!

You follow?

Yes the OT came first and then Jesus came down from heaven and fulfilled the prophesy of the OT in the NT. so there is no further revelation needed as Jesus said, “it is finished.”

 

[pmccombs]

And have you not heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Yes. The Dead Sea Scrolls pushed the earliest known Old Testament texts back almost a millennium to at least the 2nd century BCE, still centuries after the main events the texts purportedly describe. The Book of Exodus, for instance, is apparently quite differently recorded in various of the Qumran finds (there are 18 copies alone). Numerous archaeologists are fairly certain this book–Exodus–is a propagandistic piece dating from no earlier than the 7th century BCE as it matches closely to the archaeology of that period, but not at all to the period it claims to represent (see, for instance, William Dever). According to the Oxford Companion to Archaeology, the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate pretty clearly that the origins of the modern text were quite diverse, and that the content of the Old Testament changed fairly frequently until the advent of “right belief,” or orthodoxy, at some time in the first century CE when numerous Christian groups were struggling for dominance and seeking to position themselves as the only legitimate Church. At that point, the Old Testament was “canonized.”

There are indeed some scrolls that match quite well to the Masoretic texts of the early medieval period, so we know that some books, at least, were fairly consistently preserved through time. But not all.

 

[komeeks18]

Yes the OT came first and then Jesus came down from heaven and fulfilled the prophesy of the OT in the NT. so there is no further revelation needed as Jesus said, “it is finished.”

Exactly!

 

[Janderich]

Yes the OT came first and then Jesus came down from heaven and fulfilled the prophesy of the OT in the NT. so there is no further revelation needed as Jesus said, “it is finished.”

Revelation from God will never be “finished”. The NT is one book of scripture in a long line of scripture. “What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven…” (D&C 121:33) This seems as obvious to me as the fact that the sun will arise tommorow.

 

[HonoraDominum]

Revelation from God will never be “finished”. The NT is one book of scripture in a long line of scripture. “What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven…” (D&C 121:33) This seems as obvious to me as the fact that the sun will arise tommorow.

Using the “revelations” in the Doctrine & Covenants aren’t going to convince Catholics of any truth whatsoever, seeing as how we do not believe those to be the word of God.

Let me rephrase in a way that might make more sense. Christ revealed all doctrine that we needed for salvation. No new doctrine has been revealed that will change how we are saved after His death and resurrection. These cores of the doctrine of Christ have been carefully preserved within the Catholic church for 2000 years. While the Catholic church has had many changes in liturgy, the essential core essentials for salvation - repentance and confession, baptism, the reception of Communion at Holy Mass - have not changed. Nothing has been added such as the necessity of a temple ceremony or the wearing of certain garments at all times.

 

[Miriam1947]

Yes. The Dead Sea Scrolls pushed the earliest known Old Testament texts back almost a millennium to at least the 2nd century BCE, still centuries after the main events the texts purportedly describe. The Book of Exodus, for instance, is apparently quite differently recorded in various of the Qumran finds (there are 18 copies alone). Numerous archaeologists are fairly certain this book–Exodus–is a propagandistic piece dating from no earlier than the 7th century BCE as it matches closely to the archaeology of that period, but not at all to the period it claims to represent (see, for instance, William Dever). According to the Oxford Companion to Archaeology, the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate pretty clearly that the origins of the modern text were quite diverse, and that the content of the Old Testament changed fairly frequently until the advent of “right belief,” or orthodoxy, at some time in the first century CE when numerous Christian groups were struggling for dominance and seeking to position themselves as the only legitimate Church. At that point, the Old Testament was “canonized.”

There are indeed some scrolls that match quite well to the Masoretic texts of the early medieval period, so we know that some books, at least, were fairly consistently preserved through time. But not all.

BC, Before Christ and AD or Anno Domini, the year of our Lord.

So amusing how people really hate to say Christ and Lord.

 

[Janderich]

Using the “revelations” in the Doctrine & Covenants aren’t going to convince Catholics of any truth whatsoever, seeing as how we do not believe those to be the word of God.

Let me rephrase in a way that might make more sense. Christ revealed all doctrine that we needed for salvation. No new doctrine has been revealed that will change how we are saved after His death and resurrection. These cores of the doctrine of Christ have been carefully preserved within the Catholic church for 2000 years. While the Catholic church has had many changes in liturgy, the essential core essentials for salvation - repentance and confession, baptism, the reception of Communion at Holy Mass - have not changed. Nothing has been added such as the necessity of a temple ceremony or the wearing of certain garments at all times.

My intention is not really to convince Catholics, instead it is simply to speak truth as I see it. People can judge for themselves. I quote the D&C because it is clearly and well said.

Of course faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost are core doctrines and will not change. But once we have that foundation in place we must build upon it. There is much much more that we need to learn to be exalted.

Will study of science cease or has all knowledge been discovered? Does man know all he needs to know about God? Of course not. And so revelation will continue to pour down from the Heavens and some will write of it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Revelation from God will never be “finished”. The NT is one book of scripture in a long line of scripture. “What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven…” (D&C 121:33) This seems as obvious to me as the fact that the sun will arise tommorow.

Jesus is the Perfect Revelation of God, a Revelation which never ceases. False prophets can’t change this by claiming Revelation has ended and then claiming to add to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ is the Word of God, there isn’t anything that He left out. Have faith in Him, the fullness of God’s Word, revealed.

 

[pmccombs]

BC, Before Christ and AD or Anno Domini, the year of our Lord.

So amusing how people really hate to say Christ and Lord.

No offense intended, but those are the terms used in the literature. It seems to be a standard developing in academia.