MERGED Questions about Mormonism

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My intention is not really to convince Catholics, instead it is simply to speak truth as I see it. People can judge for themselves. I quote the D&C because it is clearly and well said.

Of course faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost are core doctrines and will not change. But once we have that foundation in place we must build upon it. There is much much more that we need to learn to be exalted.

Will study of science cease or has all knowledge been discovered? Does man know all he needs to know about God? Of course not. And so revelation will continue to pour down from the Heavens and some will write of it.
No, actually, there is not “much more” we need to learn to be exalted. Christ taught the gospel in its fullness, and a person could spend his entire life pondering something as simple as the mysteries in the ‘Our Father’ and never run out of material for meditation. A Spanish nun in the 1600’s named St. Teresa of Avila wrote a classic Catholic book about this subject called 'Way of Perfection."

I think the disconnect is coming in the fact that you see “exaltation” in the Mormon light, which is eternal progression. For Catholics, we strive for spending eternity with God who is Love, our God who loved us first. St. Augustine famously said, “Noscam te, noscam me” - Let me know Thee, let me know myself. As one progresses in the spiritual life, a person realizes the magnificence and hugeness of God and the relating insignificance of self. St. Therese of Lisieux was told once by the Reverend Mother in her convent that as we become more spiritual, we become more simple, and this simplicity is definitely part of this littleness and nothingness. St. Teresa taught of how in our littleness and nothingness, God’s love can completely fill our souls. The less we have of our self-love within ourselves, the more of God’s love can be born within our souls, so that we can have a part of this eternal love within us here on earth.

Prayer, worship, liturgy, devotion, all of these blessings from God are to bring us to Him, to direct our spirituality so that we can dwell with Him in our hearts and souls in the simplicity of His love. His love is the ultimate goal - everything else is just leading us to that. This simple and unadulterated love is what we long for, why we were created, and the reason that God has brought us here on this earth.

This simplicity is in direct contrast with the growth and progression mentality of Mormonism.
 
No offense intended, but those are the terms used in the literature. It seems to be a standard developing in academia.
And academia is becoming increasingly secular and Atheist, not only denying the existence of God, but encouraging blasphemy and hate towards Him.
 
Revelation from God will never be “finished”. The NT is one book of scripture in a long line of scripture. “What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven…” (D&C 121:33) This seems as obvious to me as the fact that the sun will arise tommorow.
Actually, quoting a phrase from a false prophet to prove the false prophet is correct is a little self-serving.

God is pretty smart. he KNEW there would be people like Joseph Smith, Ellen White, James Jones, etc. who would claim to be prophets speaking the Word of God. So, once Christ had fulfilled what He came to fulfill, there was no further need for prophets. We had all we needed. There would be no need for revelations that blacks can;t hold the priesthood…oh…wait…they can. Or that polygamy must be practiced…oh wait…it can;t…

His Word was fulfilled.
 
Using the “revelations” in the Doctrine & Covenants aren’t going to convince Catholics of any truth whatsoever, seeing as how we do not believe those to be the word of God.
The OP of this thread asked why Mormons don’t believe in the trinity and do believe in the Book of Mormon (his assumption being that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible). Mormons do, in fact, believe in the trinity, but not in the same way as other faiths do. Mormons also study and revere the Bible as scripture, and see the Book of Mormon as complementary to it, not as “another gospel.” (“The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ and confirms the truths found in the Holy Bible. The Book of Mormon does not replace the Bible; rather, they are companion works that together teach about God and Jesus Christ.”)

In answering the OP’s questions, all a person can do is provide information; there is no need or expectation that such information will be convincing to the OP or to Catholics in general–it’s just a simple answer to a question. The OP also wrote, “I just cannot wrap my brain around how anyone can believe in the Book of Mormon if they’ve read the Bible.” The answer is in the introduction to the Book of Mormon, “We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

Another thing the OP wrote is, “One of my best friends is Mormon, and I wanted to show her this [an anti-Mormon documentary] so bad, but I don’t want to offend her!” The OP is likely concerned that his friend is in danger due to her adherence to a false religion. I can only suggest that the best way to evangelize is to know, love, and live your own faith. Be open to opportunities to discuss and share both similarities and differences in your respective theologies. A non-judgemental sharing of information and understanding should be the primary goal; if a change of heart, conversion, is to occur, it will be effected by the love and power of the Holy Spirit, not accusations or remonstrances from a friend.

An interesting similarity between Mormonism and Catholicism is that neither depend on the Bible alone for their teaching and practice. Mormons also have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the words of modern prophets and apostles. Catholics recognize that sacred scripture is just the written portion, not the totality, of sacred tradition, and that it is scripture, tradition, and the teaching authority of the church that ensures the faithful handing on of the Word of God to each succeeding generation. Converting from one religion to another likely depends to a large extent on which set of authorities a person sees as the more credible and trustworthy.
 
The OP of this thread asked why Mormons don’t believe in the trinity and do believe in the Book of Mormon (his assumption being that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible). Mormons do, in fact, believe in the trinity, but not in the same way as other faiths do. Mormons also study and revere the Bible as scripture, and see the Book of Mormon as complementary to it, not as “another gospel.” (“The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ and confirms the truths found in the Holy Bible. The Book of Mormon does not replace the Bible; rather, they are companion works that together teach about God and Jesus Christ.”)
I suppose to be fair, it should say they don’t believe in the Traditional doctrine of the Trinity. The difference is in the interpretation of what is said in the Bible. To that end, it seems to me there is more emphasis on the BOM unless a missionary is speaking to a non-member, then there is focus on the Biblical passages. As far as being “another gospel” the cover of the BOM says “Another Testament…” Also, who was it that said the BOM is “the most perfect book…” that would be even more so than the Bible.

In answering the OP’s questions, all a person can do is provide information; there is no need or expectation that such information will be convincing to the OP or to Catholics in general–it’s just a simple answer to a question. The OP also wrote, “I just cannot wrap my brain around how anyone can believe in the Book of Mormon if they’ve read the Bible.” The answer is in the introduction to the Book of Mormon, “We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
And what of those that ask in faith and do not gain a testimony? I was accused of not praying hard enough when I said I don’t believe it to be true. So, it is my fault that I don’t believe then?

Another thing the OP wrote is, “One of my best friends is Mormon, and I wanted to show her this [an anti-Mormon documentary] so bad, but I don’t want to offend her!” The OP is likely concerned that his friend is in danger due to her adherence to a false religion. I can only suggest that the best way to evangelize is to know, love, and live your own faith. Be open to opportunities to discuss and share both similarities and differences in your respective theologies. A non-judgemental sharing of information and understanding should be the primary goal; if a change of heart, conversion, is to occur, it will be effected by the love and power of the Holy Spirit, not accusations or remonstrances from a friend.
The problem is, whether intentional or not, any sharing of information or providing of evidence or proof or whatever can be seen as judgmental.

An interesting similarity between Mormonism and Catholicism is that neither depend on the Bible alone for their teaching and practice. Mormons also have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the words of modern prophets and apostles. Catholics recognize that sacred scripture is just the written portion, not the totality, of sacred tradition, and that it is scripture, tradition, and the teaching authority of the church that ensures the faithful handing on of the Word of God to each succeeding generation. Converting from one religion to another likely depends to a large extent on which set of authorities a person sees as the more credible and trustworthy.
Proper Authority is certainly the question, more is the question as to whether that authority (the keys to the kingdom of heaven) was removed from the Earth. i.e. Total Apostasy.
 
Also, didn’t Gordon B. Hinkley say the Jesus they believe in is NOT the Jesus of Traditional Christianity?
 
I can only suggest that the best way to evangelize is to know, love, and live your own faith. Be open to opportunities to discuss and share both similarities and differences in your respective theologies. A non-judgemental sharing of information and understanding should be the primary goal; if a change of heart, conversion, is to occur, it will be effected by the love and power of the Holy Spirit, not accusations or remonstrances from a friend.

An interesting similarity between Mormonism and Catholicism is that neither depend on the Bible alone for their teaching and practice. Mormons also have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the words of modern prophets and apostles. Catholics recognize that sacred scripture is just the written portion, not the totality, of sacred tradition, and that it is scripture, tradition, and the teaching authority of the church that ensures the faithful handing on of the Word of God to each succeeding generation. Converting from one religion to another likely depends to a large extent on which set of authorities a person sees as the more credible and trustworthy.
When a person smokes for 30 years, and then develops lung cancer, goes through surgery and chemo, and comes out alive at the end, it’s hard for that person to be non-judgemental and accepting of one who is smoking around them. They know the pleasures, but they also know the dangers, and would feel amiss to simply “live and let live” with this carcinogen that a person is knowingly ingesting.

It’s the same way when I hear people talk about Mormonism. To me, the lies of Joseph Smith are as toxic to someone’s spiritual life as smoking is to someone’s physical life. I can smell the stench of lies below the smoke blowing out of the mouths of those who preach the “live and let live” philosophy. Being raised Mormon, I can remember being taught numerous times that there is no Truth outside the church, and I know the ways of the missionaries, to find common ground before polluting the truth with the lies of the Church. The bottom line is that Mormons on this board are not here to protect their religion, they are here to sow seeds in the mission field. Mormons from the cradle are taught to evangelize - they teach their children to sing “I hope they call me on a mission”, and are taught the threefold mission of the Mormon church: Proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. Notice which one of these facets is listed first.

To treat cancer, you cannot simply eat more broccoli and cut down to only one cigarette a day. You have to face the truth of the danger, and act aggressively to rid the body of the mortal danger. And to stop the cancer of Mormonism, you cannot simply agree to disagree. The God of Mormonism is not the god of Christianity, no matter what the Mormons have on their website. The god of Mormonism is a false god that leads people away from Christ as He truly is. The god of Mormonism is a god who preaches to do things for the progression and glory of Man. The God of Catholicism wishes only that we conform to His holy will, and become as little children, humble and small before Him, all for His glory.

While I can share, I simply cannot be “non-judgemental”. What you call “similiarity” I call a distortion of the truth. Yes, we both claim to have authority, but your authority is based on falsehoods who claim that Christ is not who he claimed to be. You are correct that converting to another religion depends greatly on who a person sees as trustworthy. But no one can love God except by grace given to him to see Him as he truly is. I have found that with most Mormons who have converted, it’s different than converts from other religions. Mormons have a two-step process: first they must be given the grace to see Joseph Smith as the false prophet that he is, and secondly, they must be given the unique grace to be drawn to the true Christ. With most Protestants, it’s more of a “studying your way into the church” type of movement towards Catholicism, whereas with Mormons it tends to be a 2x4 whack over the head type of moment.

I love God with all of my heart, and mind and soul. I accept all that I receive because all comes from Him. I desire nothing more than unity with Him, and pray constantly for the grace to do His holy will. Because of this love for Him, I desire to do everything that I can, suffer anything that I can, to draw more souls to Him. To say that I do not love because I refuse to let Mormons “agree to disagree” is as far from the truth as it can get. Because I love God, I pray constantly for the conversion of souls, and part of the fruits of that prayer is the desire to protect Catholics from those twists on familiar themes that can appear delicious to the taste and very desirable. I remember how amazingly blind I was when I was Mormon and know that those scales can only fall off of eyes by the grace of God. Instead, I focus on those who already have the blessing of santctifying grace, helping to uncloak the wolf in sheep’s clothing. You will be in my prayers.

Our Lady of Divine Providence, St. Teresa Benedicta, Fr. Augustine of the Blessed Sacrament, ora pro nobis.:signofcross:
 
Mormons are not Trinitarians. Period. They coop Christian words and phrases and change the meaning of them. This doesn’t make them Trinitarian any more than if I were to change the definition of “world class athlete” and call myself one.

If I did try to pull such a thing off, people would either laugh it off as a grand joke, or make a point of letting other people know that I’m trying to deceive people. Mormons aren’t joking. Theirs is a deception, under layers and layers of individual deceptions. The best thing about their deception is how many Mormons believe it and promote it, without realizing their own complicency.

The deception is made even more awesome when non-Mormons get on board to promote the deceptions. 👍
 
The difference is in the interpretation of what is said in the Bible.
That is the crux of the difference amongst all Christian religions, isn’t it? A person is a Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormom, Eastern Orthodox, etc., etc., based on which group he believes is the most trustworthy in terms of the proper knowledge and worship of God.
And what of those that ask in faith and do not gain a testimony? I was accused of not praying hard enough when I said I don’t believe it to be true. So, it is my fault that I don’t believe then?
Good question. I don’t know what Mormons would say to that, but they would likely say that, yes, it’s your fault. Most “free-will” Christians would say the same if you don’t believe what they have to tell you. Calvinists might say that if you don’t believe it either isn’t yet God’s time for you to believe or that you simply aren’t numbered as among His elect.
The problem is, whether intentional or not, any sharing of information or providing of evidence or proof or whatever can be seen as judgmental.
Possibly; anytime two people disagree on an issue there is the implicit assumption that each believes himself to be correct and the other fellow wrong, but that shouldn’t preclude a friendly exchange of ideas. If one or the other is not ready to listen to the other’s viewpoints without getting defensive, or is not ready to share their own beliefs without belittling the other’s, then maybe the time isn’t right to talk about it.
Proper Authority is certainly the question, more is the question as to whether that authority (the keys to the kingdom of heaven) was removed from the Earth. i.e. Total Apostasy.
And that could be a great subject for conversation. Was there an apostasy necessitating a restoration of the church, or did Christ found a church against which the gates of Hades has not yet prevailed?
Also, didn’t Gordon B. Hinkley say the Jesus they believe in is NOT the Jesus of Traditional Christianity?
Yes, and so have many other Mormon church leaders over time. But he is also reported as saying, “Am I Christian?” Hinckley asked rhetorically, “Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I’m trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.”

I think an analogy can be found in the filioque controversy, with some Eastern Orthodox theologians considering that addition to the creed to be a heresy because it so changes the nature of the Trinity as to make those espousing that clause to be worshipping a “different” God.
 
While I can share, I simply cannot be “non-judgemental”. What you call “similiarity” I call a distortion of the truth. Yes, we both claim to have authority, but your authority is based on falsehoods who claim that Christ is not who he claimed to be. . .

I remember how amazingly blind I was when I was Mormon and know that those scales can only fall off of eyes by the grace of God. Instead, I focus on those who already have the blessing of santctifying grace, helping to uncloak the wolf in sheep’s clothing. You will be in my prayers.
It seems I’ve managed to misrepresent myself. Like you, I am a former Mormon; I wasn’t raised in it, but joined as a teenager. A large part of the attraction was the consistency of the Mormon kids in my high school walking their talk, something I didn’t see among those espousing other Christian faiths. Without going into too much long, boring detail, I left the Mormon church and attended, but never joined, a Reformed Baptist congregation; unable to reconcile myself to the concept of election (ironically, since it was believing in the “doctrines of grace” that led me out of Mormonism), I eventually came to join a congregation in the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations; that local church had internal dissent causing the pastor and those of us supporting him to leave. There not being another AFLC Lutheran church in the area led to another period of soul-searching and the eventual joining of a conservative Anglican church (one of those “1928 BCP” bodies). I at first put in Anglican as my religion, but found that it replaced what I had put in on posts dating back to when I first joined this board, which makes those older posts rather confusing.

I appreciate your prayers–no doubt I need them as much as an Anglican as I would have as a Mormon.
 
ha, well, as a former Mormon teenager with Mormon friends, I’m glad to let you know that Mormons learn very very early in life to appear the Perfect Mormon at all times. Yet, every one of us were doing everything that all the other kids were doing. Just keep the façade going, that’s all that’s required.
 
And academia is becoming increasingly secular and Atheist, not only denying the existence of God, but encouraging blasphemy and hate towards Him.
I hope that part about blasphemy and hate is not true, although academia is indeed secular and increasingly atheist.
 
ha, well, as a former Mormon teenager with Mormon friends, I’m glad to let you know that Mormons learn very very early in life to appear the Perfect Mormon at all times. Yet, every one of us were doing everything that all the other kids were doing. Just keep the façade going, that’s all that’s required.
I don’t believe this. I know many very good Mormon kids who try their hardest to live the standards that they are taught at church and in their families. A cynical nihilist and agnostic today, I was one once a kindly Mormon kid. Mormons really are a good and sincere people, if you take them as a whole. I know there are many problems in the larger community, as there are everywhere, but we are, after all, only human. We need the understanding and kindness of a jrtrent, but the vitriol and hate-talk of other ex-Mormons discredits whatever faith they claim to have found.

If we truly are lost sheep, what we need are kind shepherds, not ravening wolves who seek to tear down and destroy whatever forbidden path we think is true and beautiful. Their words are not inviting, nor persuasive, for they hate us; at least that is what their language conveys.
 
I don’t believe this. I know many very good Mormon kids who try their hardest to live the standards that they are taught at church and in their families. A cynical nihilist and agnostic today, I was one once a kindly Mormon kid. Mormons really are a good and sincere people, if you take them as a whole. I know there are many problems in the larger community, as there are everywhere, but we are, after all, only human. We need the understanding and kindness of a jrtrent, but the vitriol and hate-talk of other ex-Mormons discredits whatever faith they claim to have found.

If we truly are lost sheep, what we need are kind shepherds, not ravening wolves who seek to tear down and destroy whatever forbidden path we think is true and beautiful. Their words are not inviting, nor persuasive, for they hate us; at least that is what their language conveys.
I didn’t say Mormons weren’t sincere. I said keeping up the façade of the Perfect Mormon is what is required. That is no way means that Mormons aren’t like many, who seek to follow Christ. Mormons are trained to appear they are better at discipleship than everyone else. A shiny surface, and people do like shiny objects.

But thanks for the standard Mormon emotional-I’m-persecuted reaction, let’s not discuss what I said, but instead go for calling me a liar and ravenous wolf. Totally awesome! Some things never change.

👍
 
That is the crux of the difference amongst all Christian religions, isn’t it? A person is a Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormom, Eastern Orthodox, etc., etc., based on which group he believes is the most trustworthy in terms of the proper knowledge and worship of God.
This is where history and oral Tradition come into play. The CC (I’ll include EO in this) trace the leadership back to Peter, from the early church fathers to the present. Now, I’ve heard Mormon Missionaries use the example of the telephone game to say teachings have been changed or misunderstood, but Jesus didn’t leave us orphans and left the Holy Spirit to guide His Church.

Good question. I don’t know what Mormons would say to that, but they would likely say that, yes, it’s your fault. Most “free-will” Christians would say the same if you don’t believe what they have to tell you. Calvinists might say that if you don’t believe it either isn’t yet God’s time for you to believe or that you simply aren’t numbered as among His elect.
I know what Mormons would say, and I have been told I am not praying hard enough.

Possibly; anytime two people disagree on an issue there is the implicit assumption that each believes himself to be correct and the other fellow wrong, but that shouldn’t preclude a friendly exchange of ideas. If one or the other is not ready to listen to the other’s viewpoints without getting defensive, or is not ready to share their own beliefs without belittling the other’s, then maybe the time isn’t right to talk about it.

Faith is a tricky one. Of course we all believe we are correct. I find it hard though, when I would talk to missionaries, since I would always be told my beliefs are wrong. On top of that, then I’m told all Christian faiths have SOME truths to it, but then am told again that God told Joseph Smith that they are ALL WRONG.

And that could be a great subject for conversation. Was there an apostasy necessitating a restoration of the church, or did Christ found a church against which the gates of Hades has not yet prevailed?
I think that’s where much of the crux of the matter is. Was the restoration needed? If Jesus is Truth, then the Church He started would not fail.

Yes, and so have many other Mormon church leaders over time. But he is also reported as saying, “Am I Christian?” Hinckley asked rhetorically, “Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I’m trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.”

I think an analogy can be found in the filioque controversy, with some Eastern Orthodox theologians considering that addition to the creed to be a heresy because it so changes the nature of the Trinity as to make those espousing that clause to be worshipping a “different” God.
The filioque is not really a good example I don’t think. It doesn’t separate the EO from the CC as much as the difference in belief of the nature of God.
 
I didn’t say Mormons weren’t sincere. I said keeping up the façade of the Perfect Mormon is what is required. That is no way means that Mormons aren’t like many, who seek to follow Christ. Mormons are trained to appear they are better at discipleship than everyone else. A shiny surface, and people do like shiny objects.

But thanks for the standard Mormon emotional-I’m-persecuted reaction, let’s not discuss what I said, but instead go for calling me a liar and ravenous wolf. Totally awesome! Some things never change.

👍
it is what people who support LDS do. They can;t rely on science, or geography, or truth…
 
it is what people who support LDS do. They can;t rely on science, or geography, or truth…
Culturally, someone who wants to be accepted by Mormons, must never have anything critical to say about Mormonism. Ever. Personally, the façade has to be maintained because every Mormon “knows” those who left Mormonism did so because they love to sin. Spiritually abusive, but the game has to be played if you want to be accepted by Mormons.
 
I didn’t say Mormons weren’t sincere. I said keeping up the façade of the Perfect Mormon is what is required. That is no way means that Mormons aren’t like many, who seek to follow Christ. Mormons are trained to appear they are better at discipleship than everyone else. A shiny surface, and people do like shiny objects.
Whatever. I’m a pretty serious doubter, and have said some very critical things about my own church. They haven’t kicked me out yet.
But thanks for the standard Mormon emotional-I’m-persecuted reaction, let’s not discuss what I said, but instead go for calling me a liar and ravenous wolf. Totally awesome! Some things never change.
👍
What you said was that Mormons put on a facade, and I responded that my experience tells me otherwise. How is that not discussing what you said? Nor did I call you a liar or a ravenous wolf, but was careful to cast that accusation (the “ravenous wolf”; I never mentioned liars) against a generic anti-Mormon demographic and allow you to include yourself in that group via some emotional-I’m-persecuted reaction of your own. Totally awesome! Some things never change. 👍
 
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