MERGED Questions about Mormonism

[Imcatholic7]

I have been going to church all my life and I have never been taught this in church. I only have read about “our own planet” in anti-Mormon literature which tends to distort our beliefs. We do believe that as spirit children of our Father in Heaven we can, along with our Brother Jesus Christ, inherit what our Father has:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

Whether this means I get my own planet or not, I don’t know. And, I really don’t care.

I would recommend reading the Exaltation chapter in the Gospel Principles book. It clearly says becoming a God, etc. That is a LDS book that is used a lot in teaching.

 

[Porknpie]

Porknpie;9709290:

Its in the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, it a little blue book you can pick up at your local deseret book. It is also in the Journal of Discourses of both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

Callvenus -

Give the / us less knowledgable Catholics what sources equate to doctrine in the Mormon church. And, where does one find the defined “doctrine”? What is the understanding of the term “doctrine”? Can it change?

Examples-
The bible
The Book of Mormon
The Book of Abraham
What the current President / prophet says
Journal of discourses

 

[Imcatholic7]

Porknpie;9709290:

Its in the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, it a little blue book you can pick up at your local deseret book. It is also in the Journal of Discourses of both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

In a much newer official publication of the LDS Church is in the Exaltation chapter in Gospel Principles. “They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23)”

"They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). "

“Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).”

(Taken from lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng )

 

[RebeccaJ]

In Mormon-speak, it is “eternal increase” that will give you information on the Mormon idea of divine parenthood.

Let me Google that for you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also, I guarantee you Mormons do think they are better than most other people.

Ha! Now many times and in how many ways are Mormon youth told they are the “elect”? Intensify that 1000X for the young people leaving on Mormon missions.

A sense of entitlement is common in these parts.

 

[Callvenus]

This is the source of much controversy in the church as far as what is and is not doctrine. The church members need to sustain the prophet and his counselors as well as the quorum of the twelve apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators so I think that anything a prophet says is fair game. However, there is also a stipulation that the living prophet can basically negate what a previous prophet says. However, there are certain statements that can never be undone such as Brigham Young stating that “polygamy will never be taken from the earth”. As of today, official doctrine is anything in the quad including the Bible (KJV as far as they believe it is translated correctly, the Pearl of great price actually carries joseph smith translations of many passages), the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. I would also argue that speeches that are given by general authorities of the church in a setting like conference are also considered binding doctrine. Members argue about what is or is not doctrine all the time but the big problems in the official doctrine are still present and current leaders reaffirm those stances.

As for the whole becoming gods thing, I totally forgot about Gospel Principles. Thank you so much for reminding me Chapter 47 of Gospel principles under the subheading “Blessings of Exaltation” reads “They will become gods” and gives the reference of D&C 132:20-23.

Callvenus;9709314:

Callvenus -

Give the / us less knowledgable Catholics what sources equate to doctrine in the Mormon church. And, where does one find the defined “doctrine”? What is the understanding of the term “doctrine”? Can it change?

Examples-
The bible
The Book of Mormon
The Book of Abraham
What the current President / prophet says
Journal of discourses

 

[Janderich]

The focus in the LDS Church is about 1.) doing things on your own and perfecting yourself on your own

Your salvation is linked to these people.

Callvenus, In your extreme effort to bring up all that you suppose is terrible about the LDS teachings and people you are contradicting yourself. Are people saved on their own or is salvation linked ot others? Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

(By the way your comment about one who has died doing temple work doing the millennium is false. Only the living can perform temple ordinances for the dead, even during the millennium.)

I went to sacrament meeting for over a year with a journal and counted the number of times Jesus Christ was mentioned as compared to Joseph Smith or temples or tithing…

So instead of focusing on what was right and good you spent a year trying to tally up how many times Jesus Christ was mentioned versus Joseph Smith, temples, and tithing? I doubt you had any time for the real message with all that counting. Do you realize you were preaching a sermon all to yourself about a completely different matter that entire time?

When I was in the LDS Church, I often thought of the story about the Pharisee and the Scribe and every testimony meeting, Mormons were all too often the Pharisee.

I think you mean the story of the Pharisee and the publican. That message must be taken personally and individually. Much like the disciples when they were told by Jesus that one of them would betray him they asked, “Is it I?”

 

[Callvenus]

Callvenus, In your extreme effort to bring up all that you suppose is terrible about the LDS teachings and people you are contradicting yourself. Are people saved on their own or is salvation linked ot others? Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

(By the way your comment about one who has died doing temple work doing the millennium is false. Only the living can perform temple ordinances for the dead, even during the millennium.)

I am actually not wrong. I said that either someone can have somebody else do their temple work for them during this life or they can personally wait to be resurrected and do their own temple work in the millennium. This is the doctrine. It is not contradictory at all. Mormons attempt to rely on themselves as a human group to perfect themselves. They do not rely on God. They try to keep every commandment on their own when we all know that it is because of the fact that we could not keep the commandments on our own that we needed Jesus. And the fact remains, that without a Mormon priesthood holder, one can not be saved in Mormonism. Only a mormon priesthood holder can baptize you and only a mormon priesthood holder can carry you through the endowment and only a mormon priesthood holder can seal you for time and all eternity. Therefore, again, God is not sovereign and can not save you without these things because in Mormonism, God is bound. The Mormon God cant even create something without having pre-existing matter around. He cant really do much of anything in Mormonism.

So instead of focusing on what was right and good you spent a year trying to tally up how many times Jesus Christ was mentioned versus Joseph Smith, temples, and tithing? I doubt you had any time for the real message with all that counting. Do you realize you were preaching a sermon all to yourself about a completely different matter that entire time?

I spent 28 years in the church and all you did was focus on my last year in the church when I finally said, Is this really a Christian church or is it not? I spent 27 years trying to “feel the spirit”. I spent countless days in the temple praying and begging God to tell me if the church is true and if the book of mormon is true. I faithfully served a mission and I faithfully served in all my callings. You can sit here and attack me all you want but my journey out of the church was led by God but you like so many mormons only believe that we “look” for things that are wrong. I, like many ex-mormons on this site, were led to see these things. We were given eyes to see and ears to hear.

I think you mean the story of the Pharisee and the publican. That message must be taken personally and individually. Much like the disciples when they were told by Jesus that one of them would betray him they asked, “Is it I?”

I am talking about the Pharisee boasting about how exceptional he his and not humbling himself before God. The very difference between a Mormon testimony meeting where members boast about the fact that they pay tithing and keep the commandments and are worthy to attend the temple and a Catholic mass where we start each week by acknowledging our sins and asking God for mercy.

 

[Janderich]

I am actually not wrong. I said that either someone can have somebody else do their temple work for them during this life or they can personally wait to be resurrected and do their own temple work in the millennium. This is the doctrine.

Do you not see that temple work must be done for a person in the spirit world before he is resurrected? If, as you correctly said earlier, a person must be baptized before he enters paradise (also in the spirit world) how can this same person be resurrected and yet not baptized? If indeed your false premise is doctrine please find a scripture or quote from an apostle or prophet confirming your statement.

 

[Callvenus]

Callvenus;9711397:

I am actually not wrong. I said that either someone can have somebody else do their temple work for them during this life or they can personally wait to be resurrected and do their own temple work in the millennium. This is the doctrine.

Do you not see that temple work must be done for a person in the spirit world before

he is resurrected? If, as you correctly said earlier, a person must be baptized before he enters paradise (also in the spirit world) how can this same person be resurrected and yet not baptized? If indeed your false premise is doctrine please find a scripture or quote from an apostle or prophet confirming your statement.

That is not true because in the morning of the first resurrection, those of terrestrial and celestial glory are resurrected. And during the millenium, temple work is done throughout. I am so surprised that you do not know your own doctrine that resurrection (overcoming of physical death) in Mormon doctrine is a universal gift and no baptism is required for this. All people that have ever lived, according to mormon doctrine, will be resurrected. The first resurrection is those of the celestial and terrestrial kingdoms and the second resurrection at the end of the millenium is for those of telestial glory. People can be resurrected in the first resurrection and spend the whole time in Spirit prison. All those that will inherit terrestrial glory are confined to spirit prison and yet are resurrected during the first resurrection

 

[Callvenus]

youtube.com/watch?v=e3I6t3VodO4

Watch Bob Millet telling you the tactics of the LDS Church.

 

[Janderich]

That is not true because in the morning of the first resurrection, those of terrestrial and celestial glory are resurrected. And during the millennium, temple work is done throughout. I am so surprised that you do not know your own doctrine that resurrection (overcoming of physical death) in Mormon doctrine is a universal gift and no baptism is required for this. All people that have ever lived, according to Mormon doctrine, will be resurrected. The first resurrection is those of the celestial and terrestrial kingdoms and the second resurrection at the end of the millennium is for those of telestial glory. People can be resurrected in the first resurrection and spend the whole time in Spirit prison. All those that will inherit terrestrial glory are confined to spirit prison and yet are resurrected during the first resurrection

Of course the resurrection is universal. I think you misunderstand again. I did not say baptism is required in order to be resurrected. Instead, baptism is required in order to enter paradise within the spirit world.

From Gospel Principles, our basic manual for new members:

The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning, and resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we are ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once more unite with our spirits, and we will receive the degree of glory we have prepared for. (Ch. 45 The Postmortal Spirit World)

And again from the book of Mormon:

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection…the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, …the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil…these shall be cast out into outer darkness [spirit prison] …thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise until the time of their resurrection. (see Alma 40:11-14)

My point to you was that all ordinances, if they are to be done at all for a given person, must be complete before a person is resurrected. Thus there is no way for a resurrected being to perform temple ordinances for himself or herself.

 

[Callvenus]

Again, there is temple work and missionary work being done during the millennium, so people can be baptized for themselves and go and do the temple ordinances from themselves. Again, this all doesnt matter though. God is sovereign and God can save who He wants no matter what that person has done. He can make exceptions.

lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium

Of course the resurrection is universal. I think you misunderstand again. I did not say baptism is required in order to be resurrected. Instead, baptism is required in order to enter paradise within the spirit world.

From Gospel Principles, our basic manual for new members:
And again from the book of Mormon:

My point to you was that all ordinances, if they are to be done at all for a given person, must be complete before a person is resurrected. Thus there is no way for a resurrected being to perform temple ordinances for himself or herself.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thus there is no way for a resurrected being to perform temple ordinances for himself or herself.

That “no way” stands out. Do you think Jesus did Mormon temple ordinances for Himself before He was resurrected?

 

[TexanKnight]

That “no way” stands out. Do you think Jesus did Mormon temple ordinances for Himself before He was resurrected?

Better question is who did them gor the LDS god when the LDS god was still a sinful man?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Better question is who did them gor the LDS god when the LDS god was still a sinful man?

and why does the Mormon God need?

 

[Josephene]

firstthings.com/ - good article of conversion into The Catholic Church …

Let us hope that there would be such ongoing miracles …

Mary , our Loving Mother , pray for us all !

 

[Janderich]

That “no way” stands out. Do you think Jesus did Mormon temple ordinances for Himself before He was resurrected?

I believe so. We know he was definitly baptized and the other thread has been speaking of his marriage.

 

[RebeccaJ]

and the other thread has been speaking of his marriage.

This is what Mormons imagine. There is no support for it in Scripture or Tradition.

I think quite the opposite, where Jesus shows that love for neighbor is not bound to friends, marriage or family. All for the purpose of building His Kingdom. He never, once, describes marriage as necessary for His Kingdom.

 

[Janderich]

This is what Mormons imagine. There is no support for it in Scripture or Tradition.

I think quite the opposite, where Jesus shows that love for neighbor is not bound to friends, marriage or family. All for the purpose of building His Kingdom. He never, once, describes marriage as necessary for His Kingdom.

Rebecca, “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no maore twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Jesus, Matt 19:4-6) Marriage through the priesthood is eternal and there is no substitute.

And what of baptism? “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matt 3:13-15) “And now if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfill all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy to be baptized, yea, even by water!” (2 Ne 31:5) Baptisim is also required, as Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” That does not leave room for strange exceptions like I have heard on this site.