MERGED: Should I stay kneeling?/Parish practices

[FNDRB58]

All or most of the Eastern Rites have a partition or curtain covering the Blessed Sacrament which is why they do not kneel which would be appropriate. But as stated in an earlier thread my contention is for kneeling by those Catholics of the Roman Rite only. I am not interested at this time about other rites. The Roman Rite is the predominant rite in the U.S. so it is of those in this rite to whom I am speaking.

Standing can be a sign of respect but generally it is not one of humility and adoration. We stand when the President enters the room out of respect. But do we kneel before him in humility and adoration? So let us at least agree that the two postures invoke entirely different meanings.

The Vatican can’t monitor every parish in our country to see that all rubrics are correctly performed. They trust that the bishops will do the right thing. Unfortunately there are a few bishops and priests who tend to run amuck in this regard. We all know there is clergy out there who are more progressive. I know what the church law is and I am confident kneeling is what God wants when we come before Him.

In what way is kneeling before our Lord among parishioners who stand “unproductive”. I don’t see your point here. My primary purpose is to be humble and adore Christ present before me. My kneeling does not create angst among the rest of the congregation from what I can see. I get a couple looks…so what. I do believe that I am setting an example to those who want to kneel but are afraid to do so because they don’t want to stick out like a sore thumb. On many occasions I have knelt then saw others who seemed to hesitate kneel after me. I kneel before Christ during this awesome and mysterious occurance when ordinary bread is changed to our Savior before our very eyes. If one does not kneel even before the Real Presence at Mass then basically you could not justify kneeling at any other moment for the Transubstantiation is the most appropriate time to kneel. There is no moment more holy or blessed as at this moment. If one does not kneel during this moment then one would never kneel, therefore logically one would feel that kneeling has no place in religion which is absurd. I believe kneeling does have a place. Did Jesus not kneel before our God in the Garden of Gesthemane? Does the bible not say to kneel before the Lord? If God says to kneel, then dagnabit, I do what he says. I don’t say no then do what everyone else does because I don’t want to be “unproductive” or be conspicuous. We must be careful not to become secularized. That is what seems to be happening in parishes today. We also have priests and bishops contradicting the GIRM which is illicit. Do what you believe is right and stand up for the Church and for Our Lord. You will be remembered for it and blessed on that day.

Jesus said to be obedient in small matters of the law as well. On the surface this may seem like a small issue to some. But it is not. If all adored our Lord properly and humbled ourselves before him then this would solve many other issues within our church. It is this lack of humility and blase attitude that is at the root of most evil in my humble opinion. A football team can’t be lazy or lack emotion before a big game. They have to predispose themselves and get hyped up and emotional so that they perform with intensity. In a similar way we must humble ourselves which reduces the pride within ourselves which enables love and charity to emanate to others.

“Stand up” for our Lord…and KNEEL.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Our parish remains standing through communion or you can kneel…no one sits down that can stand or kneel until it is over…then all sit. After communion, I kneel until I am ready to stand up…

stormy

I wish more people would do this. Some people don’t even bother to stand or kneel after receiving.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Well…we don’t have any statues and our church is pretty plain. But we do have kneelers. And we kneel during the concencration through the great Amen. Then stand. Now at the parish that I attend daily Mass…people do it both ways after that…some people kneel again after the Lamb of God and some people remain standing. It’s up to them. I’ve never seen not kneeling after communion…that’s my time for thanksgiving to the Lord…I can’t imagine not kneeling during that.

 

[Aramis]

All or most of the Eastern Rites have a partition or curtain covering the Blessed Sacrament which is why they do not kneel which would be appropriate.

Not quite. the curtain and/or doors may or may not be closed. Kneeling simply is not a normal part of worship in the east… only during presanctified during Lent and St Phillip’s fast (And that’s not properly a consecration, either). Nor do the servers in the sanctuary kneel. Nor the deacons nor minor clerics.

 

[otjm]

All or most of the Eastern Rites have a partition or curtain covering the Blessed Sacrament which is why they do not kneel which would be appropriate.

That is a bit simplistic; kneeling is also a sign of penitence rather than adoration in Eastern cultures. And not having made a survey of all of the Eastern churches, rites, and subdivisions, I don’t know that all of them have the screen.

But as stated in an earlier thread my contention is for kneeling by those Catholics of the Roman Rite only. I am not interested at this time about other rites. The Roman Rite is the predominant rite in the U.S. so it is of those in this rite to whom I am speaking.

While this is true, on occasion people go off on a tangent as if the issue were a universal church issue when it is not.

In what way is kneeling before our Lord among parishioners who stand “unproductive”. I don’t see your point here. My kneeling does not create angst among the rest of the congregation from what I can see. I get a couple looks…so what. I do believe that I am setting an example to those who want to kneel but are afraid to do so because they don’t want to stick out like a sore thumb. On many occasions I have knelt then saw others who seemed to hesitate kneel after me.

It may be that you have had no contact, or very little contact with members of congregations which insist on standing during the Consecration. Unfortunately I have. They are rapid to label someone who goes against their flow; it is hard to, if not impossible to get past that labeling. You are eminently free to kneel and I am not standing (no pun intended) in criticsm of your choice. I choose differently. You see it as a serious matter. I see other things as more serious; that does not necessarily make either of our responses better or worse. And the fact that I see other issues as more serious does not mean that I do not think that following the rubrics as serious.

I kneel before Christ during this awesome and mysterious occurance when ordinary bread is changed to our Savior before our very eyes. If one does not kneel even before the Real Presence at Mass then basically you could not justify kneeling at any other moment for the Transubstantiation is the most appropriate time to kneel.

That is a bit over the top.

I believe kneeling does have a place.

So do I. However, I am not the liturgical police, and I am not out to call attention to myself in a way that leads others to judge (or rather, misjudge) me. I learned long ago not to let everyone know what I was thinking.

We also have priests and bishops contradicting the GIRM which is illicit.

I choose to use my efforts where I think they will have a productive result. We differ on where that may be, but that differing is not a matter of “you are wrong and I am right”, but rather, I choose to invest my time, energy ans what little influence I may have differently.

Jesus said to be obedient in small matters of the law as well. On the surface this may seem like a small issue to some. But it is not. If all adored our Lord properly and humbled ourselves before him then this would solve many other issues within our church. It is this lack of humility and blase attitude that is at the root of most evil in my humble opinion.

This issue has been going on for some 40 years now. Rome has been inundated with letters over this issue as well as more serious issues. They have chosen to approach it far differently than some people would have them do. The most impactful change to one of those parishes is a change of pastors, something I am not capable of accomplishing. Over time, this issue will sort itself out, if for no other reason than that the priests who have been ordained in the last 15 to 20 years have far different issues than their predecessors (which is how we got into this issue in the first place). I support verbally and by other means, the priests who follow the GIRM. I stay as far away as possible from the older ones who have an axe to grind. I also stay away from parishes which have an axe to grind. Catechesis has been lousy, but slowly that has been changing. Following the rubrics has been lousy, but that, too, is changing. I am not in charge of the process, but I support the changes. Standing during the Consecration is just plain silliness. I am, however, not going to fight the issue; that is someone else’s job - the priest. I take care of what I can take care of; I avoid getting into issues that I feel I cannot change, and my approach is different than yours. Is mine better? I am not going to say so. It is different, and appears to be within the realm of attention, or lack of it, that Rome gives the matter.

I will try it again: I am not saying you are wrong; I am saying I take a different tack. That does not make me right, just as it does not make you wrong. If you don’t like the tack I take, I am not going to try to convince you to change your tack or your mind. However, I think there is more than one way to deal with issues; if you don’t, then there isn’t a whole lot more to say. I would hope that you would not be scandalized by my approach, but if you are, that is not going to change my approach.

I certainly have prayed that we could all get on the same page in liturgy. However, I have spent far, far more time in prayer over the issue of abortion than I have over the issue of goofy liturgy. They are both serious issues; I consider abortion, and the sexual milieu far more important an issue than a liturgically illicit posture. And I suspect that God does too. And that does not mean that either I or God do not think that liturgical posture, or liturgical obedience is of no meaning, content, or worth.

 

[cjforJesus]

That is a bit simplistic; kneeling is also a sign of penitence rather than adoration in Eastern cultures. And not having made a survey of all of the Eastern churches, rites, and subdivisions, I don’t know that all of them have the screen. While this is true, on occasion people go off on a tangent as if the issue were a universal church issue when it is not.
It may be that you have had no contact, or very little contact with members of congregations which insist on standing during the Consecration. Unfortunately I have. They are rapid to label someone who goes against their flow; it is hard to, if not impossible to get past that labeling. You are eminently free to kneel and I am not standing (no pun intended) in criticsm of your choice. I choose differently. You see it as a serious matter. I see other things as more serious; that does not necessarily make either of our responses better or worse. And the fact that I see other issues as more serious does not mean that I do not think that following the rubrics as serious.

That is a bit over the top.So do I. However, I am not the liturgical police, and I am not out to call attention to myself in a way that leads others to judge (or rather, misjudge) me. I learned long ago not to let everyone know what I was thinking. I choose to use my efforts where I think they will have a productive result. We differ on where that may be, but that differing is not a matter of “you are wrong and I am right”, but rather, I choose to invest my time, energy ans what little influence I may have differently.

This issue has been going on for some 40 years now. Rome has been inundated with letters over this issue as well as more serious issues. They have chosen to approach it far differently than some people would have them do. The most impactful change to one of those parishes is a change of pastors, something I am not capable of accomplishing. Over time, this issue will sort itself out, if for no other reason than that the priests who have been ordained in the last 15 to 20 years have far different issues than their predecessors (which is how we got into this issue in the first place). I support verbally and by other means, the priests who follow the GIRM. I stay as far away as possible from the older ones who have an axe to grind. I also stay away from parishes which have an axe to grind. Catechesis has been lousy, but slowly that has been changing. Following the rubrics has been lousy, but that, too, is changing. I am not in charge of the process, but I support the changes. Standing during the Consecration is just plain silliness. I am, however, not going to fight the issue; that is someone else’s job - the priest. I take care of what I can take care of; I avoid getting into issues that I feel I cannot change, and my approach is different than yours. Is mine better? I am not going to say so. It is different, and appears to be within the realm of attention, or lack of it, that Rome gives the matter.

I will try it again: I am not saying you are wrong; I am saying I take a different tack. That does not make me right, just as it does not make you wrong. If you don’t like the tack I take, I am not going to try to convince you to change your tack or your mind. However, I think there is more than one way to deal with issues; if you don’t, then there isn’t a whole lot more to say. I would hope that you would not be scandalized by my approach, but if you are, that is not going to change my approach.

I certainly have prayed that we could all get on the same page in liturgy. However, I have spent far, far more time in prayer over the issue of abortion than I have over the issue of goofy liturgy. They are both serious issues; I consider abortion, and the sexual milieu far more important an issue than a liturgically illicit posture. And I suspect that God does too. And that does not mean that either I or God do not think that liturgical posture, or liturgical obedience is of no meaning, content, or worth.

I dont think kneeling at any part of the mass would really be an illicit posture as one man in my parish kneels for the entire consecration even through the sign of peace. No one ever criticizes him as that is his personal devotion.

I most often start crying during the words"This is my body".It is involuntary and just as the angus dei is started I usually fall to my knees in gratitude for what Christ has done. I noticed a few older catholics do this too(kneel at the angus dei instead of after) and no one has any issues with these personal devotions.

 

[FNDRB58]

otjm

I understand your stance but respectfully disagree with it completely. Your dialogue has focused primarily on how others think about you kneeling; how others would react; or whether this is a “fight” worth having when there are other “more important” issues to address within the Church. You seem to have missed my point. My primary reason for kneeling is to be humble and adore Christ. At that moment I don’t care what others think as I am focused on loving my Savior. Who cares what others think? If I understand you correctly, you prefer to kneel but would stand if others were standing to avoid a “fight”. If a “fight” ensues then it is because of others ignorance and insensitivities. Why does it bother you that others disapprove of your kneeling before our Lord? If after lovingly explaining why you kneel others continue to chide or berate you then rejoice! What a wonderful cross to bare! A little more anger on their part and you may be martyred and go straight to heaven!

I don’t know how many other ways to explain myself, but I think it is clear the point I am laboring to make. The bottom line is that kneeling is an outward sign of adoration and humility unlike standing which one must concede invokes a completely different meaning. Christ knelt before God in the Garden of Gesthemane. The bible explicitly states to “kneel before the Lord”. Someone may say that it also says to “stand before the Lord.” Well if God says both then their must be a moment to kneel, and what is the best moment to do so? There is no more blessed a moment than at Mass when the most awesome event takes place when the substance of ordinary bread and wine change into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If one refuses to kneel at this moment then, no, it is not “over the top” to suggest that there is no other more proper moment to kneel. If one does not kneel during the Consecration then kneeling at any other moment is superfluous. For Jesus is not fully present in your home when you pray or in nature when you pray, yet He IS fully present at Mass in the Eucharist. Why would one kneel outside Mass then stand when Christ is fully present during Mass?

 

[FNDRB58]

I noticed a few older catholics do this too(kneel at the angus dei instead of after) and no one has any issues with these personal devotions.

Angus is a cow. Agnes means Lamb.

 

[otjm]

otjm

I understand your stance but respectfully disagree with it completely.

And you are welcome to disagree.

Your dialogue has focused primarily on how others think about you kneeling; how others would react; or whether this is a “fight” worth having when there are other “more important” issues to address within the Church.

Frankly, I don’t give a rats royal red patooty about what others think. My issues to be addressed are not “within the Church” but are to others who attend such parishes. It is far easier to speak with someone who has not already put up barriers to anything I might say, because they have already passed judgment on me as being “radically conservative” (I am trying to keep this in a civil tone, so you can take that as a euphemism). You have your fish to fry. I fry others.

You seem to have missed my point. My primary reason for kneeling is to be humble and adore Christ. At that moment I don’t care what others think as I am focused on loving my Savior. Who cares what others think? If I understand you correctly, you prefer to kneel but would stand if others were standing to avoid a “fight”. If a “fight” ensues then it is because of others ignorance and insensitivities. Why does it bother you that others disapprove of your kneeling before our Lord?

No, not a fight. More like a hostile act of ignoring anything I might say. And no, I did not miss your point. What I tried to say is that you are raising the issue higher than the Vatican does. God will honor my prayers whether I am standing or kneeling. He knows my heart; He knows I prefer to kneel at that time. And His Son made some comments about praying in private where no one sees you: I take, from that reading, that He prefers we do not do something in a way that gives the impression “Look at Me!” See how holy I am!"

You may well not intend that, and I am not casting aspersions on you or in any way suggesting that you are intending such. However, other people look at it that way. I choose to not stand out at that time as I do not personally find it to be effective witness. You may well find it differently.

 

[cjforJesus]

Angus is a cow. Agnes means Lamb.

I am laughing my butt off now.LOL Thanks for the correction as my spelling is pretty lousy normally and lately I have been doing some Whoppers when it comes to typos.
agnus angus
But,i am sure you understood what i meant.

Lamb of God you take away the sin of the world,have mercy on us
Lamb of God,you take away the sin of the world,have mercy on us
Lamb of God.you take away the sin of the world,grant us peace.

 

[cjforJesus]

Angus is a cow. Agnes means Lamb.

Agnes , Saint. Died c. a.d. 304
Roman Christian who, according to tradition, was martyred as a virgin at the age of 13. She is the patron saint of young girls.

 

[FNDRB58]

You may well not intend that, and I am not casting aspersions on you or in any way suggesting that you are intending such. However, other people look at it that way. I choose to not stand out at that time as I do not personally find it to be effective witness. You may well find it differently.

You confirmed by point. You stated, “However, other people look at it that way.” You still seem concerned about what others think. If you don’t give a patooty then why would you say this? You are contradicting yourself.

I am simply trying to understand the reason you choose to stand during the Consecration when you prefer to kneel. You have stated that you stand because you have had some experiences of fellow parishioners who disapprove of your kneeling and apparently have expressed this to you. It is not worth the fight as you put it. And you believe that there are bigger issues to deal with in the Church than a rubric. Did I misunderstand? It is apparent that you do not stand due to fear…fear of others’ disapproval and the desire to not deal with it…fair enough. I would just encourage you and anyone else who feels similarly to kneel anyway; to obey the U.S. Bishops and adore our Savior by this most humble posture. And yes, you would be setting a good example to others, not because either of us is more holy, but because we know that this is the right thing to do.

I did not state nor imply that you are less holy or do not have a good heart when you are standing so please do not imply that I am kneeling to vainly be seen by others. This is a discussion stopper and things go downhill from here. I have stated quite emphatically that I don’t care about what others think. That is precisely my point with you.

I don’t think anything I have said here in my few post has put it above anything the Vatican has said or believed on the subject. The Vatican believes that kneeling is the proper posture during the Consecration. The Pope can’t oversee every subject going on in American Churches. They leave this to the U.S. Bishops and they have said to kneel. Obedience dictates that we kneel. Forget what fellow parishioners say. Do what the law requires but do it because you love Christ and His Church and want to show him by this outward sign.

Don’t get angry with my counter-arguments. If you disagree with anything I have said then please explain in greater detail your position and perhaps you will persuade me to meet you in the middle…doubtful…but this forum is for candid dialogue.

 

[otjm]

You confirmed by point. You stated, “However, other people look at it that way.” You still seem concerned about what others think. If you don’t give a patooty then why would you say this? You are contradicting yourself.

Your comment was that I was influenced by what others think. No, you miss-perceive. I am not influenced by what others think; I am influenced by the fact that once they think (that is, once they have made a determination about me), they are no longer approachable. There is a difference between the two. If I had no desire to engage them, I would kneel. If I have a desire to engage them, then I am not going to do something before the start of the engagement that would guarantee it would never occur. My motivation is not that they might think ill of me; my motivation is that I do not want to set up barriers before I have even spoken.

To say it another way: their dismissal of me, their judgment of me, is not of importance to me personally. I have a rather thick skin. But I do think it important if I want to engage with them, that I do not trigger a barrier which prevents it.

I did not state nor imply that you are less holy or do not have a good heart when you are standing so please do not imply that I am kneeling to vainly be seen by others. This is a discussion stopper and things go downhill from here. I have stated quite emphatically that I don’t care about what others think. That is precisely my point with you.

I didn’t imply that. I have met some who do act that way, and brag about it. Not caring about what others think can be a good thing in some circumstances. In others, it can get in the way of other issues.

The Vatican believes that kneeling is the proper posture during the Consecration. The Pope can’t oversee every subject going on in American Churches. They leave this to the U.S. Bishops and they have said to kneel.

the ;point I was trying to make is that the Vatican wants everyone to kneel, and they do not put much effort into the matter. this issue has been going on for any number of years; decades would be more appropriate. Complaints have been made repeatedly; they do nothing. It simply is not very high on their list of things to deal with.

Don’t get angry with my counter-arguments. If you disagree with anything I have said then please explain in greater detail your position and perhaps you will persuade me to meet you in the middle…doubtful…but this forum is for candid dialogue.

I am not angry in the least. You and I are coming at an issue from very different points. I have noted the legitimacy of your point and tried to explain that on a scale of 1 to 10, you see kneeling as a higher matter than I do. We both see them as important; I see that there are times where it may be the better choice to not stand out from what others are doing (wrongly). I believe there is a time to witness, and a time to not witness on certain matters. It would appear we disagree about this point. And as I noted, that does not make me right and you wrong; I also don’t believe that it makes me wrong and you right. Seems to me the OT speaks of a time to do and a time to not do. It would appear to me that you feel that kneeling is a higher value that does not give way to a balancing of effect on others. That does not make you wrong and I for sure am not going to pick on you, were we to attend the same Mass.

My position is a bit akin to the Church’s scaling of doctrines; some are more important than others, but all are true. The fact that some are of greater importance does not make the others of less truth or value, but it does acknowledge the lesser importance. I get the feeling you see kneeling at that time as an absolute value; I see it as a value but not absolute.

Does that help?

 

[otjm]

You confirmed by point. You stated, “However, other people look at it that way.” You still seem concerned about what others think. If you don’t give a patooty then why would you say this? You are contradicting yourself.

I am simply trying to understand the reason you choose to stand during the Consecration when you prefer to kneel. You have stated that you stand because you have had some experiences of fellow parishioners who disapprove of your kneeling and apparently have expressed this to you. It is not worth the fight as you put it. And you believe that there are bigger issues to deal with in the Church than a rubric. Did I misunderstand? It is apparent that you do not stand due to fear…fear of others’ disapproval and the desire to not deal with it…fair enough. I would just encourage you and anyone else who feels similarly to kneel anyway; to obey the U.S. Bishops and adore our Savior by this most humble posture. And yes, you would be setting a good example to others, not because either of us is more holy, but because we know that this is the right thing to do.

I did not state nor imply that you are less holy or do not have a good heart when you are standing so please do not imply that I am kneeling to vainly be seen by others. This is a discussion stopper and things go downhill from here. I have stated quite emphatically that I don’t care about what others think. That is precisely my point with you.

I don’t think anything I have said here in my few post has put it above anything the Vatican has said or believed on the subject. The Vatican believes that kneeling is the proper posture during the Consecration. The Pope can’t oversee every subject going on in American Churches. They leave this to the U.S. Bishops and they have said to kneel. Obedience dictates that we kneel. Forget what fellow parishioners say. Do what the law requires but do it because you love Christ and His Church and want to show him by this outward sign.

Don’t get angry with my counter-arguments. If you disagree with anything I have said then please explain in greater detail your position and perhaps you will persuade me to meet you in the middle…doubtful…but this forum is for candid dialogue.

Sorry: duplication because of a copy problem.

 

[Being_Brave]

There are two churches under the same Priest in my area, and I have attended both. One church is nearly 100 years old and is where the older, more traditional families attend. The other is fairly new, about 30 years old, and seems to attract newer/younger families. Both kneel during consecration, but it’s more customary to kneel and pray after communion at the older church, whereas standing is the norm at the newer church.

I think the reason might be that the newer members attend the newest church (it’s in town and easier to find, I guess) and a larger portion do not take communion yet, so they stand and pray or sing in the pew waiting for those who do to return to their seats.

I don’t know which is “right”, but I am sure that sitting isn’t okay (they don’t say anything to those who sit, but it just starts to feel awkward).

 

[FNDRB58]

Your comment was that I was influenced by what others think. No, you miss-perceive. I am not influenced by what others think; I am influenced by the fact that once they think (that is, once they have made a determination about me), they are no longer approachable. There is a difference between the two. If I had no desire to engage them, I would kneel. If I have a desire to engage them, then I am not going to do something before the start of the engagement that would guarantee it would never occur. My motivation is not that they might think ill of me; my motivation is that I do not want to set up barriers before I have even spoken.

To say it another way: their dismissal of me, their judgment of me, is not of importance to me personally. I have a rather thick skin. But I do think it important if I want to engage with them, that I do not trigger a barrier which prevents it.

I didn’t imply that. I have met some who do act that way, and brag about it. Not caring about what others think can be a good thing in some circumstances. In others, it can get in the way of other issues.

the ;point I was trying to make is that the Vatican wants everyone to kneel, and they do not put much effort into the matter. this issue has been going on for any number of years; decades would be more appropriate. Complaints have been made repeatedly; they do nothing. It simply is not very high on their list of things to deal with.

I am not angry in the least. You and I are coming at an issue from very different points. I have noted the legitimacy of your point and tried to explain that on a scale of 1 to 10, you see kneeling as a higher matter than I do. We both see them as important; I see that there are times where it may be the better choice to not stand out from what others are doing (wrongly). I believe there is a time to witness, and a time to not witness on certain matters. It would appear we disagree about this point. And as I noted, that does not make me right and you wrong; I also don’t believe that it makes me wrong and you right. Seems to me the OT speaks of a time to do and a time to not do. It would appear to me that you feel that kneeling is a higher value that does not give way to a balancing of effect on others. That does not make you wrong and I for sure am not going to pick on you, were we to attend the same Mass.

My position is a bit akin to the Church’s scaling of doctrines; some are more important than others, but all are true. The fact that some are of greater importance does not make the others of less truth or value, but it does acknowledge the lesser importance. I get the feeling you see kneeling at that time as an absolute value; I see it as a value but not absolute.

Does that help?

It helps, but forgive me, my opinion has not changed. We indeed see things differently. Though you prefer to kneel, you are concerned with the effects of kneeling as they relate to other parishioners who do not kneel and I always kneel to properly adore the Real Presence before me despite the effect it may have on the parishioners who disapprove. I am obeying the authority of the one true Church and those who stand during the Consecration are being disobedient to it. If it is such a small issue then why don’t they change the rubric? They don’t because it is that important. What more can be said?

You have stated that you prefer to kneel but will stand if on an occasion you are in a different church where everyone stands. What you haven’t explained is why you prefer to kneel. What is the reason you would ordinarily kneel? You should expect that I will respond to your answer with something like, “Well, how does the “situation” change your conviction to kneel?”

 

[FNDRB58]

There are two churches under the same Priest in my area, and I have attended both. One church is nearly 100 years old and is where the older, more traditional families attend. The other is fairly new, about 30 years old, and seems to attract newer/younger families. Both kneel during consecration, but it’s more customary to kneel and pray after communion at the older church, whereas standing is the norm at the newer church.

I think the reason might be that the newer members attend the newest church (it’s in town and easier to find, I guess) and a larger portion do not take communion yet, so they stand and pray or sing in the pew waiting for those who do to return to their seats.

I don’t know which is “right”, but I am sure that sitting isn’t okay (they don’t say anything to those who sit, but it just starts to feel awkward).

According to the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) put out by the U.S. Catholic Bishops, we are required to kneel during the Consecration, we may either stand or kneel during the Agnes Dei (Behold, the Lamb of God…), and we may stand or kneel or sit after receiving communion despite what the pastor requests of us. They cannot mandate one form or another as the GIRM confirms.

I obey the authority of the Church, therefore I kneel during the Consecration. I prefer to kneel during the Agnes Dei because I have that option and feel all should, and I kneel after communion because I have that option also. I do not agree that standing and waiting for everyone to finish communion “creates unity”. We are not disunified just because I kneel to pray to God. In fact I pray for my fellow parishioners at that moment too! We all came together as one body in the first place. It makes no sense to me.

 

[otjm]

It helps, but forgive me, my opinion has not changed.

That is fine. My concern is not about changing your mind; I don’t seek that at all. It is more about trying to explain why there may differences in approach. If there are legitimate differences in approach, that does not mean (as I have tried to say) that one is right and the other wrong; they can both be right.

We indeed see things differently.

Yes, most certainly.

If it is such a small issue then why don’t they change the rubric? They don’t because it is that important. What more can be said?

Well, let’s try this: how about a different question: if the rubric is so important, why don’t they do more to enforce it? answer: because it is important, but not important enough to enforce.

You have stated that you prefer to kneel but will stand if on an occasion you are in a different church where everyone stands. What you haven’t explained is why you prefer to kneel. What is the reason you would ordinarily kneel? You should expect that I will respond to your answer with something like, “Well, how does the “situation” change your conviction to kneel?”

I was taught as a child to kneel at that point (and others). I do not, by that comment, disagree that in our culture, kneeling is a sign of adoration (a sign, not the only sign necessarily). But it is far more something inculturated than necessarily always conscious. When ritual is repeated behavior and becomes learned behavior, it becomes hard to “unlearn” it, and one usually feels awkward acting differently. I kneel, as most people do, without particular thought to the fact that kneeling is a sign of adoration. Do I adore? Of course!

I have repeatedly attended a Byzantine rite Mass. I can tell you that standing up constantly seems awkward. Would I or do I kneel during the Consecration there? Absolutely not. The rubric there is to stand and I honor the rubric, never mind that I find it awkward. To kneel would be disrespectful of the congregation, a violation of the rubrics, and would be placing my feelings over the rule. I have had Roman Catholics say they absolutely would kneel at that time; they put their own emotional perception over the rule, because they don’t like the rule.

The only reason I have stood during a Roman rite Consecration is because I made a conscious choice to not do something that I felt would hinder what else I wanted to accomplish, which was to speak with some of the congregation later. That does not mean that I do not respect your witness to the rubrics and to adoration of the Eucharist.

Some people take rules to all be equal. They are not and never have been. That does not give carte blanche to violate them, and I do not have a whole lot of patience for those who want to ignore or rewrite the GIRM. However, while I do not have patience with them, that does not mean that I necessarily reveal that. There is a time and a place for corrections. There is a time and a place for witness. There are levels of witness.

Please note: nothing I am saying is in any way an indictment of your decision. I am only suggesting that there may be others who see a purpose in adopting the same posture as the twits about them, and that is not a reflection on your choice.

That make sense?

 

[otjm]

According to the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) put out by the U.S. Catholic Bishops, we are required to kneel during the Consecration, we may either stand or kneel during the Agnes Dei (Behold, the Lamb of God…), and we may stand or kneel or sit after receiving communion despite what the pastor requests of us. They cannot mandate one form or another as the GIRM confirms.

I obey the authority of the Church, therefore I kneel during the Consecration. I prefer to kneel during the Agnes Dei because I have that option and feel all should, and I kneel after communion because I have that option also. I do not agree that standing and waiting for everyone to finish communion “creates unity”. We are not disunified just because I kneel to pray to God. In fact I pray for my fellow parishioners at that moment too! We all came together as one body in the first place. It makes no sense to me.

In our archdiocese, the bishop has requested that we stand during the Agnus Dei. Given that he is the chief liturgist here, has that authority, and has set that policy, we stand.

After each individual receives and returns to their bench, they take the posture they wish. Most kneel; a few sit, and there is no hassle over the issue.

The problem some have is that they equate unity with uniformity. Uniformity has its purpose and place, but uniformity is not the same as unity.

Rome has seen fit to make rules which are universal for the Roman Church they have given authority to regional areas for variances, and have granted regional authorities to determine some variances, and they (the regional authorities) have in some circumstances allowed the individual bishops to make certain determinations. Some people can’t or won’t follow that.

Oh well.

 

[FNDRB58]

In our archdiocese, the bishop has requested that we stand during the Agnus Dei. Given that he is the chief liturgist here, has that authority, and has set that policy, we stand.

After each individual receives and returns to their bench, they take the posture they wish. Most kneel; a few sit, and there is no hassle over the issue.

The problem some have is that they equate unity with uniformity. Uniformity has its purpose and place, but uniformity is not the same as unity.

Rome has seen fit to make rules which are universal for the Roman Church they have given authority to regional areas for variances, and have granted regional authorities to determine some variances, and they (the regional authorities) have in some circumstances allowed the individual bishops to make certain determinations. Some people can’t or won’t follow that.

Oh well.

Almost! The Bishop has the authority to **request ** all stand during the Agnes Dei and after communion but as the GIRM states those who wish to kneel during these times are not prohibited from doing so.

If you abide by a Bishop’s request to stand during the Agnes Dei then why don’t you abide by the GIRM which is written by the U.S Conference of Catholic Bishops and mandates us to kneel during the Consecration?

“Uniformity in posture”** is a sign of the unity **of the assembly gathered for liturgy and “expresses and fosters" “the spiritual attitude” of those participating. So the purpose of uniformity in posture is directly related to unity.