MERGED: Should I stay kneeling?/Parish practices

[Bob_Aliano]

If you live in the United States, the posture of the people from the Angus Dei until the reception of Communion is one where the bishop has some discretion. If all the parishes in your area observe this posture then it is likely it is the bishop’s decision and you ought to follow it. Outside of the United States, standing is the proper posture.

From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2

Why do many of these rulings tend to put the faithful in a position of having to choose to do what they have been taught for decades or following a practice that is diametrically opposed to their formation? Is there some agenda to un-teach all that was taught pre-VII, is it some insidious attempt to secularize the Church, there has to be something going on. It’s troublesome to many of us because we feel as if we are being un-Catholic if we obey our training, even stronger criticism and name-calling is thrown around in many of the threads of this forum. What happened to the concept of one apostolic Church, we are now a collection of my or the highway religious cliques, very disturbing.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Solution: Do what everybody else does. There is nothing to be gained by kneeling while everyone else is standing. That sort of behavior will only get you labeled as being out-of-touch or as making a hyperreligious “statement”.

I’m not sure I agree. If it better disposes the OP’s soul to receive Jesus, it might be dangerous to him if he didn’t kneel. Who cares what the rest of the congregation thinks? We’re at Mass to worship God, not judge other people.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I’m not sure I agree. If it better disposes the OP’s soul to receive Jesus, it might be dangerous to him if he didn’t kneel. Who cares what the rest of the congregation thinks? We’re at Mass to worship God, not judge other people.

We attend Mass at a small parish in a touristy part of SW Colorado a few times a year where no one knows what posture to assume. In addition to the fact there are people from all over the US, the locals have varying opinions of what is correct so there is a hodge-podge of kneeling, standing and sitting during the consecration, communion and post-communion. Very unsettling, almost surreal.

 

[puzzleannie]

Its also important to follow the directives of the Church. The GIRM calls for kneeling. .

actually it does not, the more common practice is to stand after the Great Amen, the US was granted an indult some time ago to continue the common practice here of kneeling. The rule now is, as stated above, at the bishop’s discretion. I think St. Ambrose was right 1600 years ago and is still right today, follow the local practice.

 

[Barbkw]

In our parish, we stand at the time that the Our Father is said, through Communion and then we sit when Father takes his seat.

We started doing that about 3 years ago.

 

[Catholicben]

I say kneel. If other people are disobedient to the church, that’s their problem. Don’t just go with the flow.

As for the St. Ambrose quote, I think he is referring to practices that are allowed either way. In Rome, the church allows people to fast on a Sat… In milan, it is not required to fast on Sat. He is talking about following local traditions that are allowed by the church. Standing at this time in the mass is not allowed, so don’t do it.

Solution: Do what everybody else does. There is nothing to be gained by kneeling while everyone else is standing. That sort of behavior will only get you labeled as being out-of-touch or as making a hyperreligious “statement”.

Seriously? There is obiedence to the church to be gained!! Who cares what disobedient liberals label us as if they do it because we are obedient to the church?

 

[Apollos]

I’m not sure I agree. If it better disposes the OP’s soul to receive Jesus, it might be dangerous to him if he didn’t kneel. Who cares what the rest of the congregation thinks? We’re at Mass to worship God, not judge other people.

I insist that’s beside the point. If we all did as we pleased, we would lose the value of orderliness and decorum in public worship. What’s wrong with wanting to kneel, but skipping it out of respect for the customs of the place?

 

[otjm]

I emphatically disagree with your second and third paragraphs…

We adore the Real Presence as it is exposed within the church usually on the altar. We don’t treat it the same way once its consumed within each person. Whether the Eucharist is to be adored while exposed in a monstrance or is exposed during the Mass, it should be adored until it returns to the Tabernacle. Kneeling until it reenters into the Tabernacle is not a rubric but my opinion. I would equate it with us standing and waiting while the priest walks down the aisle and leaves the main sanctuary. Those who leave before hand are being disrespectful.

You need to do a little research as to what the Church says and has said for a very long time about receiving Communion.

 

[Apollos]

Seriously? There is obiedence to the church to be gained!! Who cares what disobedient liberals label us as if they do it because we are obedient to the church?

Yes, seriously. The GIRM is not a blueprint for liturgical vigilantism.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I insist that’s beside the point. If we all did as we pleased, we would lose the value of orderliness and decorum in public worship. What’s wrong with wanting to kneel, but skipping it out of respect for the customs of the place?

Customs? Aren’t we at Mass to pay homage to our Lord and doesn’t our sense of piety and reverence govern how that homage is exhibited? I’m sorry but I’m not prepared to toss all my pre-VII catechism training and decades of liturgical tradition in favor of some new fad. I chose the word fad because the liturgy is becoming a rite du jour in this modern world with new rules and practices coming at us rapid fire where liturgical changes used to move at a geological pace.

 

[MarkThompson]

Customs? Aren’t we at Mass to pay homage to our Lord and doesn’t our sense of piety and reverence govern how that homage is exhibited?

I hope you’ll post that response the next time someone complains about people around them at Mass holding hands, holding their hands in the air, or whatever else people do that doesn’t affect anyone else but some folks still want to stamp out. Yes sir, the next time someone points out that there is no custom of handholding during the Our Father in the Catholic Church, please make sure you inform them that custom is irrelevant and each person is called to worship and behave at Mass in whatever way he or she, individually, judges best.

 

[otjm]

otjm,

I do not understand your dissent when we are reading from the same GIRM. It explicitly states that the bishop is given the authority to request that the churches in his diocese stand after the Agnus Dei but it is not mandatory.

If the bishop exercises his duly granted authority, his modification is aw binding as the GIRM is if he choses simply to follow the GIRM instead of modifying it. His modification, should he so choose within his competent authority, is not a whim or a suggestion, it is a modification as forceful as the GIRM.

No one is to be refused to kneel if they choose to do so. So one is not disobedient, nor liberal, nor a cafeteria Catholic, who chooses to exercise that option. If anything, that is conservative and traditional, something Pope Benedict is trying to return to by his desire that communicants who come to him kneel. The Pope supercedes the GIRM, not the other way around. If the Pope deems it appropriate to kneel to the Real Presence then I will be obedient to him.

I know that sometimes issues become confusing, but let’s try it again.

We are talking about two different issues.

One issue is the period of time before Communion is distributed; that is the time between the start of the Agnus Dei, and the time the first communicant approaches to receive. This is the time the bishop has an option to reguire all to continue standing, instead of kneeling.

The issue of kneeling for Communion is a different issue, and may (or may not) be worth a different thread - particularly as people cointinue to ignore part of the response to the dubium.

Standing is not a sign of adoration or humility on this planet.

Well, maybe this is the issue after all - you and I are form different planets! It is most certainly a sign of adoration - it is just that you seem to be totally ignorant of Eastern rites and culture.

If the Lord or Our Blessed Mother or even an angel were to appear before a Catholic I could not imagine that that individual would just stand there unless he were in shock and didn’t have his wits about him. If our Lord came to us at Mass and stood in bodily form next to the priest, we would fall to our knees in adoration…well, that’s the Real Presence, is it not?

OK. Maybe it is just that you have little imagination.

 

[ConstantineTG]

actually it does not, the more common practice is to stand after the Great Amen, the US was granted an indult some time ago to continue the common practice here of kneeling. The rule now is, as stated above, at the bishop’s discretion. I think St. Ambrose was right 1600 years ago and is still right today, follow the local practice.

Curiously I’ve never been to a place where they didn’t kneel for Communion (when the priest raises the Host and says, “This is Jesus Christ…”).

Besides, kneeling is allowed in the Latin Church so it wouldn’t be weird if you knelt at any prayer. It would be weird if you did that during a Byzantine Divine Liturgy, given they never kneel on Sundays because standing is the posture of the Resurrection.

 

[PriestGrrl]

I say kneel. If other people are disobedient to the church, that’s their problem. Don’t just go with the flow.

As for the St. Ambrose quote, I think he is referring to practices that are allowed either way. In Rome, the church allows people to fast on a Sat… In milan, it is not required to fast on Sat. He is talking about following local traditions that are allowed by the church. Standing at this time in the mass is not allowed, so don’t do it.

Seriously? There is obiedence to the church to be gained!! Who cares what disobedient liberals label us as if they do it because we are obedient to the church?

You seriously just said that liberals are the ones labeling you? Why do we perpetuate this divide in our church? How would you feel if I called you a conservative sheep? I bet you wouldn’t like it very much.

Why continue this divide? Why name call? It’s inappropriate and it’s killing our Church.

 

[SMHW]

Well, you may be generalising a bit here. It isn’t in the UK, for instance.

I should have said “default” position or something like that. Standing is the posture called for if the GIRM pertaining to the particular country/region has no local adaptation.

 

[Apollos]

I chose the word fad because the liturgy is becoming a rite du jour in this modern world with new rules and practices coming at us rapid fire where liturgical changes used to move at a geological pace.

So, since the fad is fading, it doesn’t matter if you just go along with it until it fizzles out.

 

[Barbkw]

I like holding hands at Church, particularly when I can tell it bothers some people.

I also get a secret kick out of the people’s facial expressions when we shake hands - some people look so put out having a touch another Christian.

Justin Martyr writes about “exchanging a kiss” as Mass. I’m assuming people kissed both sides of each others’ faces.

Holy cow, wouldn’t that be a hoot today.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

So, since the fad is fading, it doesn’t matter if you just go along with it until it fizzles out.

I am not a frivolous person so I opted to return to what I understand, what has a long tradition and in which I am comfortable, the TLM.

 

[FNDRB58]

You need to do a little research as to what the Church says and has said for a very long time about receiving Communion.

This is a discussion…feel free to explain your assertions. Teach me something I don’t already know. That’s what this forum is all about.

 

[FNDRB58]

If the bishop exercises his duly granted authority, his modification is aw binding as the GIRM is if he choses simply to follow the GIRM instead of modifying it. His modification, should he so choose within his competent authority, is not a whim or a suggestion, it is a modification as forceful as the GIRM.
I know that sometimes issues become confusing, but let’s try it again.

We are talking about two different issues.

One issue is the period of time before Communion is distributed; that is the time between the start of the Agnus Dei, and the time the first communicant approaches to receive. This is the time the bishop has an option to reguire all to continue standing, instead of kneeling.

The issue of kneeling for Communion is a different issue, and may (or may not) be worth a different thread - particularly as people cointinue to ignore part of the response to the dubium.

Well, maybe this is the issue after all - you and I are form different planets! It is most certainly a sign of adoration - it is just that you seem to be totally ignorant of Eastern rites and culture. OK. Maybe it is just that you have little imagination.

Not a very charitable attitude my friend.

I see you are not reading all of my posts. In post #69 I acknowledge that I indeed was confusing myself and was not completely accurate. So we are indeed on the same page now.

And again, as the GIRM states, we are to kneel after the Agnus Dei, UNLESS the bishop states otherwise. So I guess the only way to know that is to follow the crowd. But then again, there are many priests out there who do not follow the bishops requests. In fact a pastor in my diocese told me that his parish stands during the consecration because the bishop allowed it. But that is against the GIRM if I am reading it correctly. But you are saying now that the bishop can trum the GIRM which was developed by bishops as the standard? So the bishop can have the wine in pitcher with handles and the cups may be of glass? The bishop can contradict or change anything in the GIRM as he sees fit? I would be interested to read where it says that the bishop can trump the GIRM which is developed…by the bishops. You may be right but I am curious how you know this to be a fact. I am willing to learn as I stated.

And are you certain the bishop mandates standing after the Agnus Dei instead of just giving the pastor the option?

Just because someone can adore and be humble while standing and just because one believes it is does not make standing an outward sign of adoration and humility. If that was the case then Kings and Queens would have allowed people to stand before them. If an Eastern Rite Catholic was visited by the Lord and he knelt, how would you describe that action. Wouldn’t you say that he was humbling himself before the Lord and adoring the Lord? Certainly one would not say that one posture equates with the other.