MERGED: Standing during the concecration/Priest make me stand?

[ConstantineTG]

By that logic, pole dancing would be permitted during the Eucharistic Prayer :bigyikes:

Somehow, I doubt it.

The general rule is if an act is sinful or not. Is it sinful to pole dance during Liturgy? Yes. Is it sinful to stand during Liturgy? No. Unless of course there’s specific instruction for you not to stand, and you chose not to obey. But generally standing is not a sinful act by itself.

 

[promethius]

I recently moved to the Spokane area from Colorado and at the church I am attending everyone stands for the entire Eucharistic Prayer all the way to when they go to communion. This is not at all what I am used to and I don’t know if something has changed or not. Can anyone elaborate on why this might be or if it is wrong and I should say something?

I’m guessing you’re also Air Force then. If so, howdy and congratulations (because I’m guessing you just graduated the Academy and Commissioned, which would make Fairchild your first assignment… it was mine!)

At any rate… kneeling is the norm in the United States, and this is the case in Spokane (I know, I used to go to mass at the Cathedral). HOWEVER, a bishop may allow an individual parish an exception to the norm for the diocese. If you’re terribly concerned about it, ask the priest if this is the case (or call the diocese and ask)

A couple of other differences I noticed are they say the Apostle’s Creed during Sunday mass, not the Nicene Creed.

Completely allowable. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a Sunday mass that used the Nicene Creed… at least, certainly not one that I can remember… and I’ve been to Mass in at least 6 different diocese…

AND they do not separate the wine prior to the consecration but they do it afterwards which I always thought was bad because the blood could be spilled.

If this is a normal thing, and not something which could not be avoided by any other means, then you should talk to the priest about it. Others have posted the references you will need in order to do so…

 

[FatHead]

But the priest may not be wrong. In fact, the OP may be. He needs to find out what his bishop has said.

actually, it doesnt matter what the bishop says. the GIRM says to kneel, and the bishop does not have the authority to change that.

 

[FAB]

I’m a college student going to a “college” Church. I have been going to this Church for about a year now and have been kneeling in the back the whole time I’ve been attending. However, recently I joined the choir and knelt during the Eucharistic prayer there and the Priest noticed. After mass he asked me to come to his office, he told me that he knew I was aware of the norm in “his” Church and felt I was being disrespectful. He said that the Girm was simply a guideline and he didn’t have to follow it according to Canon Law. His phrase specifically was “if it’s not in Canon Law it’s permitted.” I do love going to this Church most of my friends are there and I don’t wish to switch parishes, but I feel so disrespectful standing what should I do?

Standing at the time of the Eucharistic prayer was the norm in the curch for 100’s of years. It is considered a proper guester of respect. Even though kneeling is the norm in Amercan Catholic Church, in many parts of the world, standing is.

 

[Corki]

But the priest may not be wrong. In fact, the OP may be. He needs to find out what his bishop has said.

The priest IS wrong when he claims he doens’t have to follow the GIRM.

As for the Bishop, it depends on which part of the Eucharistic Prayer is in question. The Bishop determines standing or kneelling for the part after the Agnus Dei and all the parishes in the diocese should follow whatever he has decided. However, the Bishop doesn’t determine the posture for the Consecration. It’s always kneeling absent constraints such as physical inability to kneel or not enough room. If the Bishop has directed everyone to stand for that part of the Mass, that would be exceeding his authority.

While it might be a useful exercise in humility to go along, one is not obligated to cooperate with wrongful direction.

Standing at the time of the Eucharistic prayer was the norm in the curch for 100’s of years. It is considered a proper guester of respect. Even though kneeling is the norm in Amercan Catholic Church, in many parts of the world, standing is.

The norm for the universal Church (Latin rite) is kneeling for the consecration. The US norm is the definition of the time to kneel from after the Sanctus until after the great Amen. If another country has a norm for standing during the consecration, the conference of bishops would have requested and been granted a variance from the GIRM. There is no such approved variance for Latin rite Masses in the US.

 

[SecretGarden]

If you feel so strongly about it, find a source which states it is permitted and meet with the priest on a quiet moment preferably set a meeting up and explain your reasons to him. You can tell him that if people have a problem with it, they can speak to you directly. Kneeling is a form of worship. I would also talk with your choir director and ask if he/she has a problem with it. If not, use that also as your defence. Whatever you decide to do, pray and ask god’s guidance before you go. I would soak it with prayer because you never know how the spirit will lead both you and your priest with this matter.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

But the priest may not be wrong. In fact, the OP may be. He needs to find out what his bishop has said.

Yes but in this case the priest is wrong and there’s no need to check that with a bishop. The priest has to have obedience too: to the Church’s hierarchy. He cannot simply set aside the rubrics in the GIRM. He’s also mistaken if he thinks he’ll find all liturgical law in the Code of Canon Law. Most liturgical law is found in other sources.

 

[FatHead]

HOWEVER, a bishop may allow an individual parish an exception to the norm for the diocese. If you’re terribly concerned about it, ask the priest if this is the case (or call the diocese and ask).

Um. actually, you are wrong. the bishop may not rewrite the rules. this priest is totally off base, and needs to learn some humility. NOW.

sc2437, i am truely sorry that you have to deal with this priest telling you that you are wrong when in fact he is the one who is completely wrong.

 

[FatHead]

If you feel so strongly about it, find a source which states it is permitted and meet with the priest on a quiet moment preferably set a meeting up and explain your reasons to him.

actually, what he needs to do is to show you in canon law where it says the girm need not be followed. because it aint in there.

 

[Anna_Claire]

Standing and kneeling both convey different spiritual sentiments.
Standing is a sign of respect (as it is in secular society…eg standing when a judge enters the courtroom). Kneeling is a sign of humility. The norm in the US is kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer but adaptations are allowed. Pastors can make decisions that are good for their communities. Not every community is the same. The GIRM is more concerned with the unity of the assembly that helps foster active participation than it is with posture. So to do something different from the rest of the people is calling attention to yourself. It is wrong on many levels. If kneeling is more important to you (and thats ok if it is) than worshiping God in unity with others…my suggestion is to find another church where you will blend in and be happier.

 

[someguy14]

What do these acronyms mean?

 

[Newbie2]

By that logic, pole dancing would be permitted during the Eucharistic Prayer :bigyikes:

Somehow, I doubt it.

Gives all new meaning to “liturgical dance”.

Standing and kneeling both convey different spiritual sentiments.
Standing is a sign of respect (as it is in secular society…eg standing when a judge enters the courtroom). Kneeling is a sign of humility. The norm in the US is kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer but adaptations are allowed. Pastors can make decisions that are good for their communities. Not every community is the same. The GIRM is more concerned with the unity of the assembly that helps foster active participation than it is with posture. So to do something different from the rest of the people is calling attention to yourself. It is wrong on many levels. If kneeling is more important to you (and thats ok if it is) than worshiping God in unity with others…my suggestion is to find another church where you will blend in and be happier.

I had the same thought.

Not to be critical of the OP, and please don’t understand me as being so, but I cannot help thinking of Jesus and the Pharisees. Again, not in terms of questioning the OP’s motivation, but the possible unintended effects on others in the congregation by, again unintentionally, calling attention to one’s self.

Yeah, the priest probably could have handled the discussion better (don’t forget, we’re hearing only one side of it). Yeah, kneeling is showing reverence. But is this a “fight” that the OP is going to “win”?

Answer: No.

Perhaps this is a case where the virtue of humility comes into play. I totally agree with Anna, perhaps it is worthwhile considering looking for a different parish where they express a posture of reverence more in line with the OP’s comfort, for everyone’s sake.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

HOWEVER, a bishop may allow an individual parish an exception to the norm for the diocese. If you’re terribly concerned about it, ask the priest if this is the case (or call the diocese and ask)

Um. actually, you are wrong. the bishop may not rewrite the rules. this priest is totally off base, and needs to learn some humility. NOW.

sc2437, i am truely sorry that you have to deal with this priest telling you that you are wrong when in fact he is the one who is completely wrong.

Please show me Fathead, where the OP says the priest said anything to him.
I find your tone here to be extremely rude.
A Bishop does indeed have a wide latitude in how he governs his diocese. Please have a little more respect, if not for the person, for the office.

sc2437, I suggest that you call the pastor and ask to meet with him. Tell him you are new to the area and you would like to speak with him about the norms in your new diocese/parish, because they are different than what you are used to. Ask questions, be polite and eager to learn. If after the meeting, you feel that things are not right, then you take further steps.

I recently moved to the Spokane area from Colorado and at the church I am attending everyone stands for the entire Eucharistic Prayer all the way to when they go to communion. This is not at all what I am used to and I don’t know if something has changed or not. Can anyone elaborate on why this might be or if it is wrong and I should say something?

A couple of other differences I noticed are they say the Apostle’s Creed during Sunday mass, not the Nicene Creed. AND they do not separate the wine prior to the consecration but they do it afterwards which I always thought was bad because the blood could be spilled.

I just don’t normally see such differences when going to different masses in different cities or states.

Any help to ease my mind or if I should say something would help. Thanks.

 

[jesuspsr]

I recently moved to the Spokane area from Colorado and at the church I am attending everyone stands for the entire Eucharistic Prayer all the way to when they go to communion. This is not at all what I am used to and I don’t know if something has changed or not. Can anyone elaborate on why this might be or if it is wrong and I should say something?

A couple of other differences I noticed are they say the Apostle’s Creed during Sunday mass, not the Nicene Creed. AND they do not separate the wine prior to the consecration but they do it afterwards which I always thought was bad because the blood could be spilled.

I just don’t normally see such differences when going to different masses in different cities or states.

Any help to ease my mind or if I should say something would help. Thanks.

sc2437
Welcome to CAF.

I know what you mean. When I came back to the church, I and a few others knelt while the majority stayed standing. Kinda freaked me out at first. I’m use to it now. I still kneel regardless of what others do. Me and the others. Let me tell you, not kneeling is alot better then what I saw when I went to the spanish mass. From the way they were dressed to the musical instruments. And, I don’t don’t know if it’s right or not, but it felt differnt to me when I saw they had alter girls only, no boys.

At any rate God bless you

jesus g

 

[FatHead]

Please show me Fathead, where the OP says the priest said anything to him.

i never said he did. but due to the simple fact that everyone is standing, he is being quite prideful. if he wanted them to kneel, he could easily say something like “please kneel.” this isn’t rocket science. it’s quite clear that the priest is condoning this, which is completely wrong on his part, and VERY prideful, to think he knows better than the church.

A Bishop does indeed have a wide latitude in how he governs his diocese. Please have a little more respect, if not for the person, for the office.

the bishop can do a lot in some areas, but he CAN NOT re write any rule as he sees fit, which is what i said above. this is one of those things he can NOT change.

sc2437… Tell him … you would like to speak with him about the norms in your new diocese/parish,

how many times does it need to be said: THE NORMS ARE NOT DIFFERENT!! the only thing that is different is the pridefulness of the priest in a given parish.

 

[centurionguard]

When it comes to the Posture of Standing or Kneeling at the Consecration, I see it as a huge contention where I live. Whether you go to one parish or the other there’s always differences as one will Kneel and the other Parish Stands.

There’s NO Uniformity. I see this all across in many Catholic countries, States, Provinces, Archdiocese, Diocese, and from Parish to parish. Has the Pope made a final directive on this for ALL Catholics to follow the same Posture?

I don’t see why there’s all this confusion and Topsy-turvy mix up going from one parish to another. Any wonder when it comes to Posture tempers get flared in the Church when clergy make changes on the fly. Every time when my parish gets a new priest the Postures change.

Its irritating at best. For hundreds of years before Vatican II there was one universal posture (Kneeling) before Jesus Miraculously Humbled on the Altar of Sacrifice.

 

[Corki]

Standing and kneeling both convey different spiritual sentiments.
Standing is a sign of respect (as it is in secular society…eg standing when a judge enters the courtroom). Kneeling is a sign of humility. The norm in the US is kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer but adaptations are allowed.** Pastors can make decisions that are good for their communities.** Not every community is the same. The GIRM is more concerned with the unity of the assembly that helps foster active participation than it is with posture. So to do something different from the rest of the people is calling attention to yourself. It is wrong on many levels. If kneeling is more important to you (and thats ok if it is) than worshiping God in unity with others…my suggestion is to find another church where you will blend in and be happier.

Not entirely true. Pastors can make decisions only where discretion is granted in the GIRM. Different postures, specifically, are an area where discretion is granted to the conference of bishops, not to individual Bishops or to priests. (GIRM 390). Even then, the differences from the universal GIRM norms must be approved by the Vatican.

In order to suspend kneeling during the consecration, there needs to be a good reason. The wording is vague but there has been sufficient back-and-forth to show that it can’t be “just because”. The GIRM gives three specific reasons where kneeling might not be observed - the physical ability of the person to kneel, large numbers of people present and lack of space. Lack of kneelers has specifically be ruled not a good reason. I would be willing to bet “I don’t have to follow the GIRM” would not be considered a good reason either.

While unity is a good thing, it isn’t the main goal. The GIRM, for example, states that if one can’t kneel, he is to stand and make a profound bow at the words of the consecration. Now, that would call attention even more than just standing still or even sitting. The main goal during that part of the Mass is an act of reverence, not an act of unity. The unity that is important is unity with the Church, not just with the people next to you.

The issue is not whether the OP can kneel during the Eucharistic prayer - he can and should. The real question is whether he should continue to be part of the choir. Being in the choir already calls attention to oneself and that might not be compatible with trying to observe the norms for Mass.

 

[CATHOLICbrl]

I’m a college student going to a “college” Church. I have been going to this Church for about a year now and have been kneeling in the back the whole time I’ve been attending. However, recently I joined the choir and knelt during the

Eucharistic prayer there and the Priest noticed. After mass he asked me to come to his office, he told me that he knew I was aware of the norm in “his” Church and felt I was being disrespectful. He said that the Girm was simply a guideline and he didn’t have to follow it according to Canon Law. His phrase specifically was “if it’s not in Canon Law it’s permitted.” I do love going to this Church most of my friends are there and I don’t wish to switch parishes, but I feel so disrespectful standing what should I do?

If kneeling is your way of showing reverence maybe going back to sitting in the back of church where he was not able to see you is the way to go. I do know that in my area not kneeling for the Eucharistic Pray is common at the college Catholic Churches. The state Newman center does not have kneelers but the Catholic college has kneelers and they still stand.

 

[JGMendes4049]

The bishop can do a lot in some areas, but he CANNOT rewrite any rule as he sees fit, which is what I said above. This is one of those things he CANNOT change.

But FatHead, you’re wrong! An ordinary can do whatever his little merry heart desires, if, of course, it is approved by two–thirds of the nation’s bishops and the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments.

 

[sasg]

the bishop can do a lot in some areas, but he CAN NOT re write any rule as he sees fit, which is what i said above. this is one of those things he can NOT change…

This is technically true, but may lead to incorrect conclusions. The bishop cannot change the rubric; however he can allow a parish to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer if necessity demands (emphasis added):

…In the Diocese of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/posture/posture-during-the-eucharistic-prayer.cfm

The USCCB also explains who makes the determination of “other good reason” (emphasis added):

The only licit posture of the faithful during the Eucharistic Prayer is kneeling, unless they are prevented on occasion from kneeling due to " health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason." The determination of what constitutes “some other good reason” is best made by the Diocesan Bishop.

nccbuscc.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml

Unfortunately, for a lot of parishes, “on occasion” has become “most occasions”, much like “extraordinary minister” has become “quite ordinary minister”. However there are legitimate reasons to stand during the Eucharistic Prayers, and there is a need for this exception. While Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago was being renovated, services were held in the Parish Hall with auditorium seating; it is very difficult to kneel in auditorium seats!

When it comes to the Posture of Standing or Kneeling at the Consecration, I see it as a huge contention where I live. Whether you go to one parish or the other there’s always differences as one will Kneel and the other Parish Stands.

There’s NO Uniformity. I see this all across in many Catholic countries, States, Provinces, Archdiocese, Diocese, and from Parish to parish. Has the Pope made a final directive on this for ALL Catholics to follow the same Posture?

This is extremely unfortunate. There absolutely is a final directive on this that ALL Roman Catholics must follow, and it is in the GIRM (quoted above by the USCCB). The Eucharist is the center of the Catholic faith, which is exactly why it’s so important that we kneel together. To have a mixture of people standing and sitting, even between parishes, makes us appear disunited; and during the Eucharistic Prayer, when God is made physically present to us, it is particularly important that we show our unity of faith and reverence before Christ, both individually and as a community.