MERGED: (UN Jurist:) Pope must answer for crimes against humanity

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homoreus said:
I’m afraid I came too late to read the pre-edit version of your post. Perhaps the reasons you might not read too often about the punishments in these cases include:
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The only edit was the qualification in the square brackets; I realized that saying ‘if I missed stories of this nature I would, frankly, be delighted to read them,’ sounded like I wanted more kids to molested so I could hear about the culprits’ punishment so I added ‘I’m not hoping more children were molested…’
homoreus said:
  1. Wrong or no penal jurisdiction. The canon courts don’t have power to punish in the sense of putting someone into jail. Laicisation is not a punishment. It’s a release from a restraint, i.e., the vow of celibacy. Defrocking, as commonly (mis)understood as expulsion from priesthood, is not possible under Catholic doctrine (I won’t address the point here further).
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Do you mind if you can elaborate? Couldn’t they be released/expelled the clerical state?
homoreus said:
  1. Wrong or no subject matter jurisdiction. Removing a priest from active ministry was at the time the sovereign prerogative of the Bishop. This is the same with a great many things, as they have always been ever since the Twelve Apostles. The pope is merely primus inter pares, and the Vatican establishment with its portrayedly gigantic centralised totalitarian control mechanism is really the tip of the iceberg, the rest of the iceberg being situations where the Pope is really no more than one more Bishop in the synod. The primacy of the Bishop of Rome is limited to certain things which, in the larger picture of the general scheme of things Catholic, is really the minority of matters.
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Interesting.

I suppose I meant more civil punishment. You cite one priest who was subject to civil jurisdiction; is that the norm that they only undergo canonical (I don’t know exactly what the right word here would be… insight would be helpful) punishment or both civil and canonical? Thanks for the insight.
 
homoreus said:
  1. Wrong or no penal jurisdiction. The canon courts don’t have power to punish in the sense of putting someone into jail. Laicisation is not a punishment. It’s a release from a restraint, i.e., the vow of celibacy. Defrocking, as commonly (mis)understood as expulsion from priesthood, is not possible under Catholic doctrine (I won’t address the point here further).
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I have heard from a canonist that they can remove them from the clerical state but not release them from promise of celibacy too.
 
irishpatrick said:
Many private prophecies hold that there would come a day when the Pope would be driven from Rome. Are we moving closer to that day?

Jesus told Saint Faustina to prepared the world for His Second Coming by letting the world know of His great and boundless mercy. Are we moving closer to that day? Why was she told to prepare us now?

I am concerned for the Pope. I feel there is a rabid and evil attack on him, and may God bless and protect our Holy Father according to His perfect will.
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I think we are all worried about the safety of our Holy Father…and you are so on target…these attacks are of no doubt inspired by Satan himself. The evil is palpable. These accusations I believe are without merit. All founded on lies and deceptions. Funny the same thought has gone through my mind about the Holy Father having to flee from Rome. But it is just a thought, and probably will not happen as events unfold. What I do believe, however, is that these rumblings have been ordained and put into play for our benefit as a “wake up call”, as to the times we are living in. And maybe in fact we are moving ever closer to that day. Jesus doesn’t want us to be asleep at the wheel. The times we are living in are unique indeed, and incredible. But there is nothing to fear. Jesus is always with us. And His glory will triumph in the end. “I am always with you, even to the end of time.” And His Church will not be destroyed either…" You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT."

Pray we must. Cling to Jesus, and to His Cross. He will NEVER fail us. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. “Jesus I trust in You.”
 
I know this is not very charitable but I can’t help it this time. All I have to say about this is:

FK THE U.N.**
 
It is clear that the forces of evil have chosen the issue to child abuse to rally an attack against God and against His kingdom. Those priests who have done such attrocities, known to God, await their millstone for being traitors to the Creator of the all things and giving Satan the high ground. Still, I trust nothing that is said against the Church at large. The desire to strike a blow to the Almighty drives this story. Having read one too many false allegation and rumor, I will trust nothing more that I read on this. “Wolf” has been cried once too often.
 
ThomasToo said:
The only edit was the qualification in the square brackets; I realized that saying ‘if I missed stories of this nature I would, frankly, be delighted to read them,’ sounded like I wanted more kids to molested so I could hear about the culprits’ punishment so I added ‘I’m not hoping more children were molested…’

Do you mind if you can elaborate? Couldn’t they be released/expelled the clerical state?

Interesting.

I suppose I meant more civil punishment. You cite one priest who was subject to civil jurisdiction; is that the norm that they only undergo canonical (I don’t know exactly what the right word here would be… insight would be helpful) punishment or both civil and canonical? Thanks for the insight.
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Apologies for the late reply - I haven’t figured out how to enable auto-notify.

Loss of the clerical state is not the same as not being a priest - see Canons 290ff at vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PZ.HTM

A priest is a priest forever, so the Bishop may well tell him to bugger off (in not so few words) and the priests gets reduced to saying daily mass at his mother’s kitchen table.

Laicization is a release from the vow of chastity. This was the only issue in the Kiesle case which was dressed up as “Pope refuses to punish”. Surely, the refusal to release was the true punishment.

So whenever someone talks about defrocking, I would be careful to either ascertain what they truly meant, or state outright what I assume they meant, before replying.

As for civil punishment etc., I think in most countries Bishops have no authority to impose that. Maybe in the Vatican? Whether the errant priest should be reported to the civil authorities, depends firstly on what determines the “should”. The canon norms are, simply, to follow the secular norms. The secular norms vary to country to country. In my country, sexual congress with a minor is one of the crimes that you must report to the police if you know about it.
 
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