MERGED: Vatican preparing guide for priests on how to celebrate Mass

[Saints_Alive]

Usually the early morning Masses are the quietest. Babies are all still home. Perhaps you can switch your Mass times.

Well, the babies don’t bother me at all really. They have an excuse Crying babies are just part of Sunday Mass.

You are right though. Early AM Mass and weekday Mass is the quietest for sure.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, the babies don’t bother me at all really. They have an excuse Crying babies are just part of Sunday Mass.

You are right though. Early AM Mass and weekday Mass is the quietest for sure.

That has been my experience as well. However, that said society in general is more rude and inconsiderate. The Vatican document is directed at priests and their actions, it will take awhile to trickle down to the folks in the pew. In the meantime, checking your cell, chewing gum, and speaking across two pews will continue to be common since those kinds of behaviors happen now in all kinds of formal venues.

The argument about “would you do that at the White House or with the Queen” hold no weight when we’ve seen exactly those kinds of behaviors from guests and residents!

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

It is in the general instruction of the roman missal but it seems that priests has engnored it

 

[CMatt25]

Instead of starting a new thread just for my question, since this is a Mass thread, I hope it’s ok I ask here. I haven’t been to a Catholic Mass in 8 mos and don’t recall for sure if this was done. But I recently caught the end of a Mass (after the Eucharist) on EWTN. And I noticed the priest was speaking in English and then all of a sudden switched I guess to what was Latin. Are Catholics incorporating the Latin language again in all their English Masses in the US?

I do remember as a young child attending Latin Masses when that was how Catholic Mass was said and my family and I had no idea what was being said. I recall how glad we were when the changes back then took place. As none of us spoke or understood Latin. Neither do I today. Nor do I have any desire whatsoever to learn the language.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Instead of starting a new thread just for my question, since this is a Mass thread, I hope it’s ok I ask here. I haven’t been to a Catholic Mass in 8 mos and don’t recall for sure if this was done. But I recently caught the end of a Mass (after the Eucharist) on EWTN. And I noticed the priest was speaking in English and then all of a sudden switched I guess to what was Latin. Are Catholics incorporating the Latin language again in all their English Masses in the US?

I do remember as a young child attending Latin Masses when that was how Catholic Mass was said and my family and I had no idea what was being said. I recall how glad we were when the changes back then took place. As none of us spoke or understood Latin. Neither do I today. Nor do I have any desire whatsoever to learn the language.

I hope so. The experience of decades of a bad translation shows us the usefulness of the Church having a language of its own. And besides, how difficult is it? The ordinaries are easy to learn and for the propers just use a missal. I take great solace in attending Masses that are spoken in the same language that many of the saints heard the Mass in.

 

[october_baby]

:extrahappy::extrahappy: :yyeess::yyeess:

 

[SMHW]

I do remember as a young child attending Latin Masses when that was how Catholic Mass was said and my family and I had no idea what was being said. I recall how glad we were when the changes back then took place. As none of us spoke or understood Latin. Neither do I today. Nor do I have any desire whatsoever to learn the language.

Sometimes Latin is incorporated into Masses that are otherwise said in the vernacular. (And you are probably more likely to see it on EWTN than some other places.)

My parents would both be in their 80’s (if Mom was still with us) and (while as far as I know they had no issue with Latin) they also welcomed the English language in1964.;

 

[Teelynn]

Agreed, though I cannot help but think that this is not just about priests. If the document can be written in clear language for a change, it may be an opportunity to teach the laity about the importance of certain things in the Mass as well as some of the priests who have gone a bit off of where the Vatican wishes them to be.

AMEN! Recalling previous statements from Pope Benedict, he doesn’t seem to be crazy about all of the “Ministers of the Altar” running around the Altar regularly at Mass.

I also wonder if this guide will include anything about the Tabernacle that in some Churches is kept either on a side Altar or sometimes even out of the Church altogether in a “side Chapel” somewhere.

 

[Teelynn]

Check this out.

Yep, this is some of what I was referring to…the Tabernacle “disappearing” into a back Chapel or room somewhere.

Hadn’t yet seen this, but this article mentioned it!

 

[CMatt25]

Sometimes Latin is incorporated into Masses that are otherwise said in the vernacular. (And you are probably more likely to see it on EWTN than some other places.)

My parents would both be in their 80’s (if Mom was still with us) and (while as far as I know they had no issue with Latin) they also welcomed the English language in1964.;

Yes I had probably just made my First Holy Communion around that time and I can remember the Latin Masses. My mom welcomed the change too. I know anytime I’ve gone to a Catholic Mass as an adult since then I’ve always appreciated when it was in the vernacular.

Is this Latin incorporation into the English something new? Even for EWTN? Part of a return to pre Vat2 or something? The last I knew a parish near me placed importance on the vernacular. They have English, Spanish, and Vietnamese Masses. Once though when I attended another parish just down the road from there about a few yrs ago for Christmas, I can still remember the 1st verse of “Oh Come All Ye Faithful” being sung in Latin and that turned me off. Unlike poster smndtupidisaftr I don’t find contentment at a church service in a language I don’t speak or understand. I am fluent in English and remember enough Spanish to count to 19.

Thanks for replying. Peace.

 

[ProVobis]

…remember enough Spanish to count to 19.

Good enough. I’ll see you at the Spanish Mass then.

 

[Moore11]

Sadly this manual will most likely go unnoticed in my area.

 

[Mike30]

Sounds suspiciously like a normal Missal to me.

 

[SMHW]

Is this Latin incorporation into the English something new? Even for EWTN? Part of a return to pre Vat2 or something?

I started noticing greater interest in Latin in the mid to late 1990s. More interest in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (which is never in the vernacular) and also in parts of the Mass that are often chanted/sung such as the Angus Dei/Lamb of God. I also hear the Greek Kyrie as opposed to the English version.

I have also noticed something of a secular interest in Latin: T-shirt phrases, video games, etc.

 

[Moore11]

Sounds suspiciously like a normal Missal to me.

Especially if it comes out right after thanksgiving…

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Yes I had probably just made my First Holy Communion around that time and I can remember the Latin Masses. My mom welcomed the change too. I know anytime I’ve gone to a Catholic Mass as an adult since then I’ve always appreciated when it was in the vernacular.

Is this Latin incorporation into the English something new? Even for EWTN? Part of a return to pre Vat2 or something? The last I knew a parish near me placed importance on the vernacular. They have English, Spanish, and Vietnamese Masses. Once though when I attended another parish just down the road from there about a few yrs ago for Christmas, I can still remember the 1st verse of “Oh Come All Ye Faithful” being sung in Latin and that turned me off. Unlike poster smndtupidisaftr I don’t find contentment at a church service in a language I don’t speak or understand. I am fluent in English and remember enough Spanish to count to 19.

Thanks for replying. Peace.

It’s not a return to pre-Vatican II. It’s following the instructions from the documents of Vatican II which still envisioned Latin as primary.

36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

So the use of the vernacular was expanded, but from my reading, it does not seem that it was ever meant to be used for the ordinary of the Mass.

But instead of being immediately turned off by a language you don’t understand, perhaps you would like to know why the Church has used it for so many centuries.

unavocela.org/latin.htm

 

[jwinch2]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=746280

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

We are currently trying to institute some positive changes along these lines in our parish. Our pastor, thankfully, is a good man who celebrates a reverent liturgy, believes in silence, beauty, and the sacrificial nature of the Mass while remaining an outgoing guy who puts together a meaty homily. In short, we are fortunate to have him.

Might I ask how you’ve been able to do it?

 

[TimothyH]

This is extremely encouraging, but my cynical side tells me this will experience the same fate as Redemptionis Sacramentum. The title of the article is so sad as to almost be comical.

I’m super excited for the future!

I’m cynical for the opposite reason.

I hope it doesn’t become something which traditionalists quote out of context and shake in everyone’s face.

I tend to agree with you on the disappointing title. The word “Evolution” will surely provide endless opportunities for some to claim that the Church has abdicated her right to be called Christ’s true Church.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

Might I ask how you’ve been able to do it?

Well, most of this is still a work in progress, but I will give you a break down of the process and where we are at this stage.

We have three weekend Masses and we are trying to make changes to only one of them. I contacted our pastor after he mentioned that he was looking to move from 4 to 3 weekend Masses since our parish size did not justify that number. I asked if I could meet with him to discuss some ideas to correspond with the changes in Mass time, he agreed, and we met. In the meeting I requested that, since we have three Masses and two of them are quite contemporary in their music, would it be possible for us to have one of the three weekend Masses use traditional music, and perhaps incorporate the enterance antiphons, etc.

I made sure to frame it in such a way that I was not trying to take away anything from those who enjoy a more “contemporary” Mass, but rather, create an opportunity for those who prefer a more traditional Mass since we did not currently have that option at our parish.

He agreed that it was a good idea and even suggested incorporating some chant as well as doing the Kyria in Greek, and the Agnus Dei, Sanctus, etc. in Latin on a bi-weekly basis. I had not requested that, but I was happy with the idea.

He then took it to the liturgy committee, and they were not happy at all. Someone asked him the question “why are we going backwards?” and there were other negative responses as well. He told them that this was the direction that the Pope was going and the Church at large, which they did not like. He told them that two of the three weekend Masses would not be changed, which did not satisfy them. To be fair, some of them have a legitimate concern in that they were around prior to Vatican II and are afraid that a “return to tradition” also means a return to the clericalism which was rampant in the Church prior to the council. They are afraid that one cannot exist without the other, and have no desire to experience that again. I can’t say that I blame them in that regard. These people are not bad Catholics by and large, they simply have not been taught what Vatican II actually said, and are fearful of going somewhere they did not like to begin with.

So far, the reforms at our parish have yet to take effect. The Pastor wanted to change the Mass times first and let that settle in a bit before changing other things, which I think is fair, though I am indeed anxious for things to come to fruition. Unfortunately, he is also leaving for his yearly vacation right now, so it will be a month at least until anything else progresses.

One unfortunate thing which I have noticed is that the choir director seems to be getting her shots in while she can. Typically, the early morning Mass is a mix of traditional and contemporary music, with the entrance and recessional hymns being traditional and everything else being from the 1970-80’s. Recently, everything has been from the 1970-80’s with nothing prior to that in sight. I can’t prove that it is intentional and I hesitate to say anything to anyone in case my intuition is wrong, but that was my first reaction. I hope I am incorrect in that regard.

So, I cannot give you a resolution on how things have shaped up, because they are still ongoing. I hope to be able to provide additional info in the coming months.

Peace,