MERGED: Where are these 40,000 plus Protestant denominations

[StevenFrancis]

The number does seem a bit inflated. It was 30,000 when I began my conversion journey in earnest in the Church in 2003. I wish that someone would do a better count, but it’s probably very difficult, unless one had developed a base list.

If I understand it correctly, the number began to escalate sharply with the advent of growing popularity of the unaffiliated independent “Christian” Church. If these independent Christian churches has a uniform doctine, creed, etc., or an affiliation organization which bound them to some sort of a principle, then you might be able to count groups of them, as 1.

The number is likely desperately underplayed by protestants, and it’s desperately overplayed by Catholics, who I pray are just trying to make a point, however facetiously. In my mind when I hear a number like that I just hear “large number”.

But there truly are several thousand, I’m sure who do not share full understanding with each other. Not just regarding liturgy, (or lack thereof), but understandings of faith, Jesus, morals, ethics, magesterium, government, the Holy Spirit, Trinity, peace, other religions, etc.

If two pastors from the Beautiful Leaf Christian Church (made up name (I think) so, I’m not claiming 40,001) disagreed with other,and pastor Charlie took 100 parishoners with from the church to form the Autumn Leaf Christian Church, then pastor Charlie’s church is no longer of the creed and denomination of Christianity. After all, they disagreed on some matter of doctine so much that they experienced a minor re-inactment of the Reformation, with pastor Charlie taking on the roll of Martin Luther.

Now I do agree, that you could just say that what you have is two churches which could both be classified as “Non-Denominational Christian, unaffiliated churches”, and that may leave your count in the several hundreds perhaps. It’s a point of view.

The point is, lacking magesterium, protestantism lacks unity, and each individual church is it’s own. I agree with you that it is not fair to throw around statistics without at least a listing somewhere, however. If I were going to engage in such an argument with someone, I’d probably try to just make the point that there’s no limit to the number of church possibilities without magesterium, and that Apostolic authority and succession are the only things that make sense to me personally.

It’s an argument I may end up having to have, unfortunately, because it’s hitting home within the ranks of my own family. People quitting their “church” because they don’t like pastor so and so, or because they disagree on some piece of doctrine that one pastor teaches that doesn’t fit their lifestyle. I’ll be getting my nose into it and making a pitch for the orthodox life of good old Catholic dogma, and a single truth. We’ll see.

My wife and I are the only Catholics who have ever occurred in our respective family lines to the best of our knowledge. At least in the 2 centuries or so we are able to trace. Her family were Anglican and mine were Lutheran through our family histories. We’re looked at as the odd balls.

Peace be with you,

Steven

 

[1234]

The “30,000” (or 40,000) is a typical Catholic canard. It is including all the individual one-man (usually) owned pentecostal and evangelical churches, the one on every street corner and storefront type. Also the “church of ----” which refers to a country, also maybe the first Baptist church of --, 2nd Baptist church of ----, etc. Many denominations are almost identical, but don’t merge for logistical reasons. Some have strong ethnic identities they want to preserve, like the Catholic ethnic parish that doesn’t want to close. The vast majority of non-Catholic Christians belong to just a few denominations.

 

[Deconi]

The number does seem a bit inflated. It was 30,000 when I began my conversion journey in earnest in the Church in 2003. I wish that someone would do a better count, but it’s probably very difficult, unless one had developed a base list.

If I understand it correctly, the number began to escalate sharply with the advent of growing popularity of the unaffiliated independent “Christian” Church. If these independent Christian churches has a uniform doctine, creed, etc., or an affiliation organization which bound them to some sort of a principle, then you might be able to count groups of them, as 1.

The number is likely desperately underplayed by protestants, and it’s desperately overplayed by Catholics, who I pray are just trying to make a point, however facetiously. In my mind when I hear a number like that I just hear “large number”.

But there truly are several thousand, I’m sure who do not share full understanding with each other. Not just regarding liturgy, (or lack thereof), but understandings of faith, Jesus, morals, ethics, magesterium, government, the Holy Spirit, Trinity, peace, other religions, etc.

If two pastors from the Beautiful Leaf Christian Church (made up name (I think) so, I’m not claiming 40,001) disagreed with other,and pastor Charlie took 100 parishoners with from the church to form the Autumn Leaf Christian Church, then pastor Charlie’s church is no longer of the creed and denomination of Christianity. After all, they disagreed on some matter of doctine so much that they experienced a minor re-inactment of the Reformation, with pastor Charlie taking on the roll of Martin Luther.

Now I do agree, that you could just say that what you have is two churches which could both be classified as “Non-Denominational Christian, unaffiliated churches”, and that may leave your count in the several hundreds perhaps. It’s a point of view.

The point is, lacking magesterium, protestantism lacks unity, and each individual church is it’s own. I agree with you that it is not fair to throw around statistics without at least a listing somewhere, however. If I were going to engage in such an argument with someone, I’d probably try to just make the point that there’s no limit to the number of church possibilities without magesterium, and that Apostolic authority and succession are the only things that make sense to me personally.

It’s an argument I may end up having to have, unfortunately, because it’s hitting home within the ranks of my own family. People quitting their “church” because they don’t like pastor so and so, or because they disagree on some piece of doctrine that one pastor teaches that doesn’t fit their lifestyle. I’ll be getting my nose into it and making a pitch for the orthodox life of good old Catholic dogma, and a single truth. We’ll see.

My wife and I are the only Catholics who have ever occurred in our respective family lines to the best of our knowledge. At least in the 2 centuries or so we are able to trace. Her family were Anglican and mine were Lutheran through our family histories. We’re looked at as the odd balls.

Peace be with you,

Steven

Some would say, you and the Missus are the beginning of something, Steven!

'Though I’ve read many compelling explanations for the cause and definitions of the multitude of Protestant denominations, I think yours is the most accurate!

With that kind of attentiveness, you are in good stead for the probable pending ‘family sessions’ of apologia.

 

[O.S.Luke]

The “30,000” (or 40,000) is a typical Catholic canard. It is including all the individual one-man (usually) owned pentecostal and evangelical churches, the one on every street corner and storefront type. Also the “church of ----” which refers to a country, also maybe the first Baptist church of --, 2nd Baptist church of ----, etc. Many denominations are almost identical, but don’t merge for logistical reasons. Some have strong ethnic identities they want to preserve, like the Catholic ethnic parish that doesn’t want to close. The vast majority of non-Catholic Christians belong to just a few denominations.

Well said - “canard” is a good word. The above argument is at best hyperbole used to portray Protestantism and Protestants as lacking integrity and faithfulness.

I don’t think Catholics should ever apologize for being Catholic. But the use of the 30k, 40k, 100k denominations argument is, to me, a bit dishonest - a lot like a reporter who tells a half-truth and leaves out the rest.

I’ll quote philosopher WIll Durant: “To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves. . . let us be above such transparent egotism.”

O+

 

[Bluegoat]

THe thing is, since in general Protestants do not see visible political unity as important, nor absolute doctrinal unity, it isn’t really a useful argument at all in most instances. It doesn’t prove anything unless you show those things are necessary.

And even then, one would still have to show that Catholics have the correct political arrangements and doctrine, rather than some other group.

One could also take a step back and make the argument a bit bigger “Since those Christians are not unified, their ideas cannot be true!” If one would not take that argument at face value, why take the same argument about Protestants at face value?

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Byzantine_wolf
The encyclopedia lists them all as Roman Catholic denominations. It lists over 700 Eastern Orthodox denominations as well, and I’m sure the Eastern Orthodox would disagree with that (as would most rational Roman Catholics).

You say there’s only one…that’s my point. You’d accept one number but reject another, and both from the same source.

I just came back and saw this response to my post.
Please re-read my post.
I entered the word (encyclopedia) at the end only to correct your spelling of the word; NOT to use it as a reference.
P.S. You can use what ever references you please. It does not and will not change THE FACT that there is only one Holy Catholic Church established on earth by Jesus Christ Himself. ALL other churches are splinters.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I just came back and saw this response to my post.
Please re-read my post.
I entered the word (encyclopedia) at the end only to correct your spelling of the word; NOT to use it as a reference.

So then your response was simply irrelevant to my entire post?

 

[Nine_Two]

So then your response was simply irrelevant to my entire post?

Especially since both spellings are correct, and given the encyclopedia is released by Oxford, it is only proper to use the Oxford dictionary spelling when referencing it.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Especially since both spellings are correct, and given the encyclopedia is released by Oxford, it is only proper to use the Oxford dictionary spelling when referencing it.

Indeed. Although even if it was misspelled, that would be like arguing, “Your point regarding the hues of the sunset is false because you spelled it ‘colour’ rather than ‘color’!” :whacky:

 

[Nine_Two]

Indeed. Although even if it was misspelled, that would be like arguing, “Your point regarding the hues of the sunset is false because you spelled it ‘colour’ rather than ‘color’!” :whacky:

Colour is the correct spelling and I demand you use it!

 

[Roy5]

Okay. Let me begin by saying two rhings. (a) I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage - mostly French Canadian and ‘Old Yankee’; (b) one of my hobbies is visiting churches, and I have worshiped in a few hundred over the years.

So, a few points.

(1) Protestant, of course, is a canopy word, intended to cover a whole range of churches. Sometimes it is used to include, say, Mormons and Jehovah Witness, which are not Protestant and do not want to be listed as Protestant. Unitarians differ among themselves. I've met some who identify strongly as Protestants but not as Christians. You figure!

 (2) Protestants are basically divided into two groups. The mainline Protestants generally are rooted in the Reformation, possibly second generation. For example, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Reformed churches began in the Reformation. Methodists are grandchildren of the Reformation, growing out of Anglicanism. As a whole these groups have been heavily influenced by 'higher criticism' and have strong liberal elements, often in control of those denomination. Remember that there may be 100 or more Methodist churches around the world - autonomous churches in different countries and perhaps as many as 20 Methodist denominations in the USA. This does not even include Wesleyan groups that can be traced to Methodism originally. Most of the larger mainline Protestant groups are affiliated with the National Council of Churches in this country and with the World Council of Churches internationally. They co-sponsor various groups, such as Church World Service etc. Most of these churches have women ministers. They are not united, but often see themselves as sister churches and may move quite freely from one denomination to the other.  In some places there have been major mergers. In Canada, for example, Methodists, Congregationalists and most Presbyterians merged in 1925 to form the United Church of Canada.

 (3) Most other Protestants are lumped together as evangelical, although there are evangelical members in the mainline churches. Many of these (most?) are sola scriptura. These would include the Southern Baptists, though there are individual SBC churches that are more like mainline churches. Here is where you may get dozens of denominations - mainly Baptist and Pentecostal - often small. You also will find thousands upon thousands of individual congregations which hardly should be called denominations. They usually call themselves nondenominational. They tend to develop as the result of some minister with charisma who creates his own flock. These churches rarely ordain women (some do, especially among Pentwcostalists)  They are likely to harbor the strongest feelings against Catholicism though, on many social issues (e. g., gay matters, abortions, etc.) they are closer to Catholicism. Evangelicals work hard to attract Hispanics and have been very successful - again, Pentecostalists in particular. They are also growing raoidly in Africa.

  All in all, a very confused picture. 

  The disadvantage, of course, is lack of unity. The advantage, a place for people of nearly any taste in theology, music, location, facilities, pastor, etc. The evangelical wing of Protestantism clearly is the growing one. It is aggressive in its evangelistic efforts, firm in its doctrinal beliefs, characterized by upbeat music and dynamic preaching, and usually very member-friendly, focusing on the needs of its individual communicants.

   I have found that both mainline and evangelical churches have attracted large numbers from Catholicism. Those going to mainline churches usually have trouble with certain Catholic doctrines (e.. g, transubstantiation, panoply of saints) or taboos (e. g., artificial birth control, divorce strongly condemned). Those going to evangelical churches generally say that they needed 'sound Biblical preaching'.

 

[glencora]

Enough, Enough of this argument over the number of Protestant denominations! Roman Catholics need to focus on cleaning our church of pedophiles and Judas’ in clerical robes! The Church has lost ALL moral authority because of the sex abuse scandal! Not one Bishop has gone to jail! Cardinal Law is in Rome! From the Top down; too many clergy are like white washed tombs! I love the Catholic Church! I converted, but the Church has many problems. The sex abuse crisis has not been addressed with the seriousness it deserves. Any priest found to be an abuser should go to jail! Then there is the problem of catechesis. Catholics are completely ignorant of their faith! Being Catholic is more than following rules, attending Mass, making sure your child is baptized, confirmed, etc. Being Catholic is knowing and following Christ! We must know him in Word and Deed! We must know him in the Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist! There needs to be a MASSIVE reeduation of Catholics world wide. The Vatican should initiate a Marshall Plan to catechize Catholics. At every Mass, there needs to be thorough catechesis. This is the only way the Church will be effective in addressing the moral crisis’ of our time!

 

[Jack_Walsh]

How exactly is it relevant? It doesn’t prove our case that the Catholic Church was the Church founded by Christ. The Catholic Church has differences and schisms too. Not to mention the whole issue is exagerated to begin with. If we are going to refute Protestantism, then why do we need to mirror some of their worst techniques for arguing? Disagree all you want but the issue only proves that people are sinful and disagree alot, just like we do in the Catholic Church. What’s good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander.

I actually have to disagree because it is revelant. Whether it is 1 or tens of thousands is one way to many churches Christ never founded. Christ founded ONE church,which I do not know why it is so hard to comprehend. There is no logical reason to go and start your own church when Christ already accomplished it 2,000 years ago.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Glencora,

Your point is well taken, however, it really is not consistent with this thread. Actually, you are complaining about what this thread was designed to discuss…

May I suggest you start a new thread where your ideas and concerns can be properly expressed.

God bless

Enough, Enough of this argument over the number of Protestant denominations! Roman Catholics need to focus on cleaning our church of pedophiles and Judas’ in clerical robes! The Church has lost ALL moral authority because of the sex abuse scandal! Not one Bishop has gone to jail! Cardinal Law is in Rome! From the Top down; too many clergy are like white washed tombs! I love the Catholic Church! I converted, but the Church has many problems. The sex abuse crisis has not been addressed with the seriousness it deserves. Any priest found to be an abuser should go to jail! Then there is the problem of catechesis. Catholics are completely ignorant of their faith! Being Catholic is more than following rules, attending Mass, making sure your child is baptized, confirmed, etc. Being Catholic is knowing and following Christ! We must know him in Word and Deed! We must know him in the Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist! There needs to be a MASSIVE reeduation of Catholics world wide. The Vatican should initiate a Marshall Plan to catechize Catholics. At every Mass, there needs to be thorough catechesis. This is the only way the Church will be effective in addressing the moral crisis’ of our time!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 1234,

Is it a ‘canard’ to hide in ambiguity? You did a good job of trying to fortify your house-of-cards argument as I enlarged below?

The “30,000” (or 40,000) is a typical Catholic canard. It is including all the individual one-man (usually) owned pentecostal and evangelical churches, the one on every street corner and storefront type. Also the “church of ----” which refers to a country, also maybe the first Baptist church of --, 2nd Baptist church of ----, etc. Many denominations are almost identical, but don’t merge for logistical reasons. Some have strong ethnic identities they want to preserve, like the Catholic ethnic parish that doesn’t want to close. The vast majority of non-Catholic Christians belong to just a few denominations.

Go to the heart of the matter - as you identified: there are a multiplicity of Protestant denominations because " It is including all the individual one-man (usually) owned pentecostal and evangelical churches, the one on every street corner and storefront type." And, this means that there is no conformity toward doctrine, creed or belief. Everyman who wants to splinter from a chuch feels free to do so - following in the mistaken footsteps of Luther.

But, the origin - as listed in your own Bible - is Matthew 16:18 where Christ founded ONE Church on Peter. There were no instructions to the other 11 that if they did not agree with Peter they could split and form their own church! This is a key issue: how do you handle a disagreement? Protestants believe that not only can they pick up their ‘marbles and walk away’ but that this can be done an infinite number of times. And, it is because of this splintering whose origin is the pride of man that people are content to believe what they want. The one-word descriptor for this is: chaos.

Now, if you are really interested in exposing “canards” lets look at a few differences between Catholic and the multiplicity of Protestant groups:

Catholics believe in

1.) The Trinity (Matt 28:19) … but not all Protestants believe this!

2.) Christ is God (John 10:38) … but not all Protestants believe this!

3.) Christ commanded us to eat His Flesh (John 6:53) … but not all Protestants believe this!

4.) Christ delegated to certain men the power to forgive sin (John 20:23) … but not all Protestants believe this!

5.) Homosexuality is morally wrong (Rom 1:26)…but not all Protestants believe this!

6.) Premarital sex is morally wrong (1Cor 6:9) … but not all Protestants believe this!

The list is virtually endless. What is important is that each of the issues I have identified are not only found in your abridged Bible, but have been the teachings of the Catholic Church since Christ founded His Church on Peter to his successor Benedict XVI.

If you are concerned about the devestating impact of a “canard” on the Christian Communty - just look around and see the many effort to twist, splinter and fragment His Truth - leading to this chaos of multiple denominations.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, StevenFrancis,

Excellent post!

God bless

The number does seem a bit inflated. It was 30,000 when I began my conversion journey in earnest in the Church in 2003. I wish that someone would do a better count, but it’s probably very difficult, unless one had developed a base list.

If I understand it correctly, the number began to escalate sharply with the advent of growing popularity of the unaffiliated independent “Christian” Church. If these independent Christian churches has a uniform doctine, creed, etc., or an affiliation organization which bound them to some sort of a principle, then you might be able to count groups of them, as 1.

The number is likely desperately underplayed by protestants, and it’s desperately overplayed by Catholics, who I pray are just trying to make a point, however facetiously. In my mind when I hear a number like that I just hear “large number”.

But there truly are several thousand, I’m sure who do not share full understanding with each other. Not just regarding liturgy, (or lack thereof), but understandings of faith, Jesus, morals, ethics, magesterium, government, the Holy Spirit, Trinity, peace, other religions, etc.

If two pastors from the Beautiful Leaf Christian Church (made up name (I think) so, I’m not claiming 40,001) disagreed with other,and pastor Charlie took 100 parishoners with from the church to form the Autumn Leaf Christian Church, then pastor Charlie’s church is no longer of the creed and denomination of Christianity. After all, they disagreed on some matter of doctine so much that they experienced a minor re-inactment of the Reformation, with pastor Charlie taking on the roll of Martin Luther.

Now I do agree, that you could just say that what you have is two churches which could both be classified as “Non-Denominational Christian, unaffiliated churches”, and that may leave your count in the several hundreds perhaps. It’s a point of view.

The point is, lacking magesterium, protestantism lacks unity, and each individual church is it’s own. I agree with you that it is not fair to throw around statistics without at least a listing somewhere, however. If I were going to engage in such an argument with someone, I’d probably try to just make the point that there’s no limit to the number of church possibilities without magesterium, and that Apostolic authority and succession are the only things that make sense to me personally.

It’s an argument I may end up having to have, unfortunately, because it’s hitting home within the ranks of my own family. People quitting their “church” because they don’t like pastor so and so, or because they disagree on some piece of doctrine that one pastor teaches that doesn’t fit their lifestyle. I’ll be getting my nose into it and making a pitch for the orthodox life of good old Catholic dogma, and a single truth. We’ll see.

My wife and I are the only Catholics who have ever occurred in our respective family lines to the best of our knowledge. At least in the 2 centuries or so we are able to trace. Her family were Anglican and mine were Lutheran through our family histories. We’re looked at as the odd balls.

Peace be with you,

Steven

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Byzantine_Wolf,

The Great Schism, dividing the Chruch of Christ into an Eastern division and away from the Primacy of Peter (and his successors) is a great scandal. If that is your poiint - you are quite right: 1054 was a rough year.

But, in answer to your specific question - No! The Church of Christ, founded on Peter (Matt 16:18) neither fell apart nor did the Gates of Hell prevail. And, the proof of this is looking you right in the eye!

Pope Benedict XVI - the successor to Peter is spreading the Gospel to the entire world - and is doing so today in England. If the Gates of Hell had prevailed - then Christ’s Church would have collapsed when Peter denied Christ 3 times! And, if simply through inerta it held up after this, the Gates of Hell would have prevailed when Peter was publicly rebuked by Paul for being a hypocrite. And, if there was any glue still there holding this obviously sinful group together, then the Gates of Hell would have prevailed after the last Apostle died and the Church was faced with tremendous persecution in the 2nd Century… or schism in the 11th Century…or major heresy in the 16th Century. And, if it were simply a human institution, it really would have failed - there is no organization in history that has withstood these destructive forces and survived. And, that survival is with teaching the same doctrine it has always taught.

At NO time in the history of the Catholc Church as it ever taught that:
Baptims is not necessary for salvation

Holy Communion is just a memorial service and not necessary

Sins are to be forgiven by going directly to God

That homosexuality is acceptable behavior

The real issues here are consistent, unified doctrine being taught by Christ’s Church - and, that would be the Catholic Church - for almost 2,000 years. There is no consistent doctrine taught by the Protestant denominations since their foundings on men and the traditions of men. If chaos captures the identify of Hell - then it has prevailed in protestantism - and the evidence before your very eyes are all of these denominaions all claiming to be true, all teaching something different and all ridiculing the other denominations for not being like theirs.

I think this answers your questions.

God bless

You’re now completely avoiding the topic altogether and going off on Eastern Orthodoxy. Even if we were to confess, “Oh, well, TODAY they believe all that,” that’s still a belief of an apostolic church founded by the apostles, using the same standards as we use for the church of Rome. Like it or not, in 1054 the eastern and western apostolic churches split. They ceased being unified. In other words, the supposed “one Church of Christ” divided. Saying they’re one church because they share a few common beliefs is like saying America didn’t split from Britain after the Revolution because both countries still spoke English.

Again, I will ask you a question that you have avoided an answer to: did Christ’s church fall apart and the gates of hell prevail?

 

[Dokimas]

What one professes with the mouth means little when compared to what is believed in the heart, thus practiced.

Catholics believe in

1.) The Trinity (Matt 28:19) … but not all Protestants believe this!

2.) Christ is God (John 10:38) … but not all Protestants believe this!

3.) Christ commanded us to eat His Flesh (John 6:53) … but not all Protestants believe this!

4.) Christ delegated to certain men the power to forgive sin (John 20:23) … but not all Protestants believe this!

5.) Homosexuality is morally wrong (Rom 1:26)…but not all Protestants believe this!

6.) Premarital sex is morally wrong (1Cor 6:9) … but not all Protestants believe this!

God bless

1. But do all catholics live as they really love God, the Triune being?
2. ditto
3. And how many catholics sin pretty bad sins within minutes of taking ‘communion’?
4. Those men are dead.
5. How many homosexuals sit in the pews of catholic churches (not to mention how many are in the clergy of the CC)?
6. How many catholics participate in pre-marital or extra-marital sex?

Remember, people in glass houses should not throw stones. There’s no perfect church because we are not perfect. Perfection comes in Heaven. We are told in the Bible to reach for perfection (be Christlike) but God knows our frame and it’s but dust.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dokimas,

You have missed the point entirely!

What one professes with the mouth means little when compared to what is believed in the heart, thus practiced.

First of all, Dokimas, thius thread is about the multiplicity of Protestant denominaitons. My post identifys WHY there are so many - there is no unity of belief once they left the Church founded by Christ on Peter.

1. But do all catholics live as they really love God, the Triune being?

“All” of any group on earth is a red herring - merely finding one who has failed in the faith disproves the argument. The issue is not do all Catholics (and that is with a capital “C”) believe this - this issue is that the Trinity has been taught as an article of Faith from the very beginning. It is still an issue of “Many are called but few are chosen” (Matt 22:14)

1. ditto

Ditto, Dokimas…

1. And how many catholics sin pretty bad sins within minutes of taking ‘communion’?

I have no idea, Dokimas, do you? All I can tell you is that we are all sinners and have fallen many times each day. I really do not understand your point. And, unless you are trying to be insuling, it is Catholic with a capital “C” and that is Holy Communion and not ‘communion’. Remember the name of the site you are on.

1. Those men are dead.

And, so will we all be, Dokimas, but this is immaterial. The issue is that after John died in 100AD - the Catholic Church kept right on going, teaching the same things that the Apostles taught and going on several hundred years later to provide you with the Bible (you undoubtedly hold the abridged version - but, notice even your abridged version is the same as the Catholic version and we can date that from about 400AD). The idea that Christ’s Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) died witht he last Apostle shows a profound lack of Faith in what He did, in how the Holy Spirit has acted through the Catholic Church in history and what is going on today. No doubt about it - the Catholic Church has had a multitude of sinful men in its history - and will continue to have them! But, that does not deny the power of the Holy Spirit so that the Gates of Hell will not prevail. These sinful men who are in positions of leadership in the Catholic Church will have much to answer for - and, answer for it they will. But, this in no way negates what Christ did.

1. How many homosexuals sit in the pews of catholic churches (not to mention how many are in the clergy of the CC)?

I have no idea, Dokimas, do you? But, again, you missed the point, the issue is not homosexuals - but homosexual acts that are condemned. Like St. Augustine said in 424AD “Love the sinner but hate the sin”. Christ gave this example in John 8:1-11 with the woman caught in adultery - He forgave her and told her not to sin again. Do you wonder about how many adulters are in the pews of the Catholic Church? They are there along with theives, and liars and you name it sinners. The place is full of sinners!! The issue, however, is not their past sins but rather their desire to live their life following Christ. There have been popes and leaders of the Cathoic Church that have given very bad example - no doubt about it. But, this is not the point. In any other organization, such a bad example would have spelled the destruction of the group. If the Catholic Church were a man made organization it would have surely been destroyed and wound up on the trash bin of history. This is not the case.

1. How many catholics participate in pre-marital or extra-marital sex?

I have no idea what you think the Catholic Church is made of, Dokimas, but, you need to look around. Start with Matt 16:18 where Christ founds His Chruch (again, that is the Catholic Church) on Peter, and in the very next breath tells Peter to get behind Him for Peter is Satan! Peter - like all of us - was / is a sinful man.

Remember, people in glass houses should not throw stones. There’s no perfect church because we are not perfect. Perfection comes in Heaven. We are told in the Bible to reach for perfection (be Christlike) but God knows our frame and it’s but dust.

This is not an issue of throwing stones, Dokimas, just one of showing the difference in belief structures between the Catholic Church and the multitude of Protestant groups, assemblies, congretations and churches. No doubt about it, perfection comes to us once we are in Heaven - and the way to get there is follow what Christ told us to do. Read your abridged Bible, I gave you the references -and see where you your group stacks up against those readings. I can tell you that this is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years - and this is not a statement that your group can honestly make.

God bless

 

[Dokimas]

Hi, Dokimas,

You have missed the point entirely!

This is not an issue of throwing stones, Dokimas, just one of showing the difference in belief structures between the Catholic Church and the multitude of Protestant groups, assemblies, congretations and churches. No doubt about it, perfection comes to us once we are in Heaven - and the way to get there is follow what Christ told us to do. Read your abridged Bible, I gave you the references -and see where you your group stacks up against those readings. I can tell you that this is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years - and this is not a statement that your group can honestly make.

God bless

You’re missing my point, one of which is – at least those protestant churches you refer to are honest and have broken away from other churches that believe differently rather than secretively practice wrong things while acting as if they are someone they aren’t.

Another point is that, in practice, within the CC are thousands and thousands of little denominations. At least the protestants have the integrety to be honest they disagree. In practice, it is a ‘stone throwing’ thing with your first statement.

A third point is that as unfair as it is to blame the CC for its members that practice different that the church’s belief, you shouldn’t point fingers at non-catholic believers who honestly differ from you.

BTW, I wasn’t speaking of the past sins of people in the pews. I was speaking of those that practice such things before and after they sit in the pews. I apreciate forgiveness more and more the older I get because I’m convinced more and more of my sin nature and its potential to destroy me and those around me.