MERGED: Where are these 40,000 plus Protestant denominations

[elvisman]

Copout! You issued the challenge so you are responsible for providing the framework

No copout at all.
Don’t tell me that you have a list of essential beliefs without backing it up.

I’m not the one who claimed I had a list. Essential Christian Doctrines are those which are necessary for Salvation. If yo don***'t* know that - then you need to take some time off from this thread and do some homework.**

If you or somebody else claims to know what is on the list - produce the list and don’t make me do your homework.

 

[PRmerger]

God is the one who decides, what essential and what isn’t.

And what has God said about what’s essential and what’s not? Chapter and verse please which tells you He said something is essential, and something is not essential.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Timothy17
What does it matter if there are one, two or perhaps one million “denominations” ? It does not alter the fact that there is but One Body, and thus One Church of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and therefore even a single “denomination” of it is logically impossible. If people are exagerating, or repeating misinformation, then that is a problem, as that mistake can be used against the logical argument, but still cannot change the simple point : Our Lord has but One Body, His Church.

Pax,
Tim

The relevence to a specic number is of GREAT signifiance for two reasons:

1. Clearly and isdispuitable Jesus founed ONLY One new Church. There are in the NT in excess of 100 verifications of this fact. Obvilsouly this was and continues to be God’s intent.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. **”

Based on the above all faiths that are not alligned with Christ CC are:

1. Seperated from the One True Church
2. Founded by men, NOT God
3. Are using an incomplete an altered fom of the bible
4. Continue to GROW IN NUMBER because of self interpation of the bible, which the large number [what ever it happens to be] gives verification of wrong and seperate beliefs, that will continue to birth new thoughts, and new religious faiths. This last point, hilights the foundational cause for this continued growth.
5. Your concept of “one body” being the Universal Christian church did not arrive on the scene until Luther in the early 1,500’s.

Please note that even in your King James Bible there is evidence that your [desired] understanding is specifically refuted.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ

** Eph. 4: 4-6** “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [One God] ***one faith, ***[One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

The point of proving a number is to give evidence of what happens when Christians do NOT follow Christ in the precise and specifid manner He Demands and Desires. rather they “build” there own immage of God, of Jesus, and defame him and deny Him by insisting on a right of self understanding also refuted specifically by the Bible. BOTH th Catholic and Protestanr versions.

**Rom.6:9 ** “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him”

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, [SINGULAR] which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” [SINGULAR]

Please understand this is not a rebuke, rather it points out that there can be ONLY One Truth of any and every spcific issue. On all matters of Faith and or morals that truth resides as Christ Himself intended in th ONLY Faith he founded.

**KNOWING THAT NO OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCHES EXISTED FOR AT LEAST 1,000 YEARS AFTER:

Christ founded His one Catholic Church
The OT had been collected by Catholics
The NT had been writen entirely by Catholics
The Canon was set by the CC and approved by God [2 Tim. 3:15-17] the matter was set as God planned it to be.**

John.17 Verses 14 to 19: "I [JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. ** [SE MT. 28:19-20] [19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

ONLY thee CC can give everone this proof of Christ Himself, in establishing that His Church is incapable of teaching in error ON MATTERS OF FAITH and or Morals.

Matt.16: 19 " I[JESUS] will give you [Peter and subsequent Popes] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

By possesion of “the keys to heaven,” by absolute necessity, this HAD TO INCLUDE the exclusive ability to properly, completely and truthfully translate the Bible.** Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20: [Jesus speaking to he Apostles**] “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

With out this ability, this precise authority; this task could not be accomplished.

Love and prayers,
Pat**

 

[PJM]

=stephe1987;7080232]I guess each church that is not in communion with other churches could be considered its own denomination. Each communion of churches should count as a single denomination.

My understanding is that each “church” that professes a differnt understanding of what the bible means [therefore a different FAITH]] would constitute a “different denomination / church.”

Eph 4:4-6 speaks of ONE-FAITH

 

[tqualey]

Hi PJM,

This was an excellent post! Thank you for the effort you put into this.

God bless

The relevence to a specic number is of GREAT signifiance for two reasons:

1. Clearly and isdispuitable Jesus founed ONLY One new Church. There are in the NT in excess of 100 verifications of this fact. Obvilsouly this was and continues to be God’s intent.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. **”

Based on the above all faiths that are not alligned with Christ CC are:

1. Seperated from the One True Church
2. Founded by men, NOT God
3. Are using an incomplete an altered fom of the bible
4. Continue to GROW IN NUMBER because of self interpation of the bible, which the large number [what ever it happens to be] gives verification of wrong and seperate beliefs, that will continue to birth new thoughts, and new religious faiths. This last point, hilights the foundational cause for this continued growth.
5. Your concept of “one body” being the Universal Christian church did not arrive on the scene until Luther in the early 1,500’s.

Please note that even in your King James Bible there is evidence that your [desired] understanding is specifically refuted.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ

** Eph. 4: 4-6** “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [One God] ***one faith, ***[One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

The point of proving a number is to give evidence of what happens when Christians do NOT follow Christ in the precise and specifid manner He Demands and Desires. rather they “build” there own immage of God, of Jesus, and defame him and deny Him by insisting on a right of self understanding also refuted specifically by the Bible. BOTH th Catholic and Protestanr versions.

**Rom.6:9 ** “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him”

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, [SINGULAR] which is the church [SINGULAR] of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” [SINGULAR]

Please understand this is not a rebuke, rather it points out that there can be ONLY One Truth of any and every spcific issue. On all matters of Faith and or morals that truth resides as Christ Himself intended in th ONLY Faith he founded.

**KNOWING THAT NO OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCHES EXISTED FOR AT LEAST 1,000 YEARS AFTER:

Christ founded His one Catholic Church
The OT had been collected by Catholics
The NT had been writen entirely by Catholics
The Canon was set by the CC and approved by God [2 Tim. 3:15-17] the matter was set as God planned it to be.**

John.17 Verses 14 to 19: "I [JESUS] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. ** [SE MT. 28:19-20] [19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

ONLY thee CC can give everone this proof of Christ Himself, in establishing that His Church is incapable of teaching in error ON MATTERS OF FAITH and or Morals.

Matt.16: 19 " I[JESUS] will give you [Peter and subsequent Popes] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

By possesion of “the keys to heaven,” by absolute necessity, this HAD TO INCLUDE the exclusive ability to properly, completely and truthfully translate the Bible.** Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20: [Jesus speaking to he Apostles**] “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

With out this ability, this precise authority; this task could not be accomplished.

Love and prayers,
Pat**

 

[1holycatholic]

My understanding is that each “church” that professes a differnt understanding of what the bible means [therefore a different FAITH]] would constitute a “different denomination / church.”

Eph 4:4-6 speaks of ONE-FAITH

Everyone in a Protestant denomination has a different understanding of what the Bible means. Each effectively constitutes their own denomination. Sometimes they disagree enough to split into different groups. There is a lot of denomination shopping in Protestantism. Many drift from denomination to denomination in search of better coffee and donuts or a better Christian rock band - actual beliefs are very fluid as “truth” is subjective.

Jesus didn’t establish any denominations. He established the Catholic Church which is not a denomination.

 

[Publisher]

Everyone in a Protestant denomination has a different understanding of what the Bible means. Each effectively constitutes their own denomination. Sometimes they disagree enough to split into different groups. There is a lot of denomination shopping in Protestantism. Many drift from denomination to denomination in search of better coffee and donuts or a better Christian rock band - actual beliefs are very fluid as “truth” is subjective.

Jesus didn’t establish any denominations. He established the Catholic Church which is not a denomination.

Are you saying that ALL Catholics believe the EXACT SAME THING as to what the scriptures mean? Has the CC provided a definitive interpretation of each and every passage of scripture?

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying that ALL Catholics believe the EXACT SAME THING as to what the scriptures mean? Has the CC provided a definitive interpretation of each and every passage of scripture?

Nope. But if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you know where to find it.

However, each and every other Protestant who denies an authority outside of Scripture is free to believe whatever he personally interprets Scripture to believe. That has led to over 9,000, 40,000 or millions (take your pick!) of different truths.

 

[Publisher]

Nope. But if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you know where to find it.

However, each and every other Protestant who denies an authority outside of Scripture is free to believe whatever he personally interprets Scripture to believe. That has led to over 9,000, 40,000 or millions (take your pick!) of different truths.

Hmmm…what is the “different truths” between Methodist, Nazarenes, Free Methodist, Alliance and Freewill Baptists that REALLY make a difference and would cause one to be in danger of loosing their soul?

 

[jmcrae]

Nope. But if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you know where to find it.

However, each and every other Protestant who denies an authority outside of Scripture is free to believe whatever he personally interprets Scripture to believe. That has led to over 9,000, 40,000 or millions (take your pick!) of different truths.

All of this is really quite beside the point. Even if there were only one form of Protestantism, it would still be in schism, and most likely teaching some kind of heresy. There is no need to throw a lot of wild numbers around.

 

[PRmerger]

Hmmm…what is the “different truths” between Methodist, Nazarenes, Free Methodist, Alliance and Freewill Baptists that REALLY make a difference and would cause one to be in danger of loosing their soul?

*Any *departure from the teaching of the Apostles is dangerous.

It’s akin to telling Jesus, “I know you said that divorce and remarriage is wrong, but I think YOU’RE wrong.”

 

[Publisher]

*Any *departure from the teaching of the Apostles is dangerous.

It’s akin to telling Jesus, “I know you said that divorce and remarriage is wrong, but I think YOU’RE wrong.”

I read from Catholics many times here that “Protestants all believe something different.”…as though every point of their doctrine is different…yet some of the “differences” are found within the membership of the Catholic church…“all believe something different”…IMO is a bit misleading…do all Catholics believe the EXACT same thing concerning every point of doctrine? I’m not asking what the catechism teaches…I’m asking if ALL CATHOLICS believe the same thing about every point of religious belief?

 

[PRmerger]

All of this is really quite beside the point. Even if there were only one form of Protestantism, it would still be in schism, and most likely teaching some kind of heresy. There is no need to throw a lot of wild numbers around.

Oh, I agree that any number besides 1 is wrong.

 

[elvisman]

I read from Catholics many times here that “Protestants all believe something different.”…as though every point of their doctrine is different…yet some of the “differences” are found within the membership of the Catholic church…“all believe something different”…IMO is a bit misleading…do all Catholics believe the EXACT same thing concerning every point of doctrine? I’m not asking what the catechism teaches…I’m asking if ALL CATHOLICS believe the same thing about every point of religious belief?

**As for dogmatic positions of the Church - which is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15) - a Catholic in good standing must believe as the Church teaches. If one does not - what you have is a Protestant or dissident.

This is what happened during the Protestant Revolt.

 

[PRmerger]

some of the “differences” are found within the membership of the Catholic church…“all believe something different”…IMO is a bit misleading…do all Catholics believe the EXACT same thing concerning every point of doctrine?

You are correct. Sadly, most Catholics do not believe everything that has been revealed in the Deposit of Faith. :sad_yes:

The point, however, is that this paradigm: *the Bible is the sole rule of faith * has led to the existence of an obscene number of “truths”. It has created chaos and confusion. Just what the devil ordered, IMHO.

 

[PRmerger]

It has created chaos and confusion. Just what the devil ordered, IMHO.

Thanks to this paradigm we have this obscenity of thousands and thousands of Christian denominations, each claiming that their interpretation is the correct one. This is the design of the Author of Chaos and Confusion.

Now, we are left with millions of followers of Christ who don’t know whether
-baptism is an ordinance
-or a sacrament
-or it’s simply a means of getting wet

We don’t know whether
-baptism of infants is required
-or one must be at the age of reason
-or an adult

We don’t know whether
-one must go to a river to be baptized
-or in a pool
-or just be sprinkled

We don’t know whether
-Sunday is the Lord’s day
-or we must honor the Sabbath

We don’t know whether
-when we die we enter “soul sleep”
-we are annihilated
-we go straight to heaven

When we profess to become a Christian, we don’t know whether
-we’re saved once, and always
-or we can lose our salvation.

We don’t know whether…

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks to this paradigm we have this obscenity of thousands and thousands of Christian denominations, each claiming that their interpretation is the correct one. This is the design of the Author of Chaos and Confusion.

Now, we are left with millions of followers of Christ who don’t know whether
-baptism is an ordinance
-or a sacrament
-or it’s simply a means of getting wet

We don’t know whether
-baptism of infants is required
-or one must be at the age of reason
-or an adult

We don’t know whether
-one must go to a river to be baptized
-or in a pool
-or just be sprinkled

We don’t know whether
-Sunday is the Lord’s day
-or we must honor the Sabbath

We don’t know whether
-when we die we enter “soul sleep”
-we are annihilated
-we go straight to heaven

When we profess to become a Christian, we don’t know whether
-we’re saved once, and always
-or we can lose our salvation.

We don’t know whether…

Okay, I hate to be a wet blanket, here, but actually, individual Protestants are not “confused” on any of this, at all - they believe whatever they are taught in Church, just like Catholics do.

Now, it would be a valid argument that many Protestants are taught things in Church that aren’t actually true. But those being taught don’t actually have any way of knowing that - they are trusting their pastors, and believing what they are told. Most Protestants would not think of comparing their beliefs to the beliefs of the Catholic church, or of the other denomination of Church down the street or over the way - they simply assume that their leadership is being guided by Scripture and led by the Holy Spirit, and they really don’t worry all that much about what other people are doing.

The issue at hand is not that there are this many or that many teachings out there, but rather, who did Jesus give authority to, to teach, and where are they now? A Protestant need concern himself with only one question: “Is my Church the one founded by Jesus Christ? And if not, then where is the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ?” If he takes a look at the Early Church, he will find something that looks suspiciously like the Catholic or Orthodox Church, and from there he will completely ignore every other Protestant church, and take up a study of Catholic and Orthodox teachings.

 

[Portrait]

Are you saying that ALL Catholics believe the EXACT SAME THING as to what the scriptures mean? Has the CC provided a definitive interpretation of each and every passage of scripture?

Dear Publisher,

Cordial greetings dear friend.

All orthodox Catholics who adhere faithfully to the teaching of the Magisterium will naturally embrace exactly the same beliefs respecting faith and morals. Of course there are the rebellious dissentients, usually free thinkers with a liberal agenda, who reject official Church teaching, or at least some aspect of it, e.g. its stance on homosexuality, abortion or birth-prevention. However, when one considers the global Catholic community, these only represent an insignificant, even if vociferous number people, insistently and forcibly expressing their erroneous “opinions”.

As regards individual passages of Sacred Scripture, a certain latitude in interpretation is permitted, with the proviso that said interpretation is consonant with the core teaching of the Church and not at variance with it. It is not so much an issue of interpreting this or that text, but rather an issue of whether or not one is out of step with any of the fundamentals of Catholic dogma.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, I hate to be a wet blanket, here, but actually, individual Protestants are not “confused” on any of this, at all - they believe whatever they are taught in Church, just like Catholics do.

I agree that individual Protestants are not confused. Indeed, they think they are right and everyone else is confused.

However, if we take the paradigm: the Bible is my sole rule of faith, and we look at its fruit, we don’t know whether…

baptism is an ordinance or a sacrament or simply a means of getting wet.

For the Bible, as a sole rule of faith, is not quite clear about this.

And when we look at the Bible as the sole rule of faith, we don’t know whether…

infants ought to be baptized or not…
or whether the Lord’s Day ought to be celebrated on Saturday or Sunday.

Reasonable people have come to wildly different conclusions after reading this “sole rule of faith”.

Why is that?

 

[Araninski]

Well we got detracted from the topic.

My point was essential is essential. Non-essential are non-essential.

The poster above posted “One God, One faith and One Baptism.”

If there’s a Catholic who believe in aliens and one who doesn’t they don’t have the same faith. If there’s a Catholic who believes in the Genesis as told and one who believes is just allegorical, then it isn’t one faith. And the list can go on and on. The same applies to evangelicals. They acknowledge we must keep the sound doctrine of the Lord. However they don’t think it is essential to believe Marian doctrines, or the rapture, or intercession of the saints, or that is necessary to speak in tongues, and the list can go on and on.

I am going to quote a great follower of the Messiah

              In necessariis unitas,
              In essentials unity,
              In dubiis libertas,
              In doubtful things liberty,
              In omnibus autem caritas,
              But in all things love.

-Saint Augustine

This is my point, now everybody is saying that everything is essential but this guy clearly knew there were essentials and non essentials.

If we can agree in that which is essential we will have perfect unity. Perfect unity is not being a copy of every person. Not everyone believes like the Pope, or like your priest or me.

If we can agree on essentials the Lord has already told us we will not get astray.

Leviticus 26:3-7

“'If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands,I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit.Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.”'I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove savage beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country."

The doctrine has already been given to us, and the Lord already told us that if we follow it we will be fruitful, safe, and will have victory.This is sound doctrine. The Lord told us the Messiah was to come, and we should believe Him when He came, that He will cleanse our sins and that He would give us eternal life. When He came He fulfilled what God told us (we should keep and seek), and told us one more thing, “share this Gospel with everyone.”

Now I believe that some “doctrines” that man have “discovered” are the things that create confusion. And because of that we have divisions.

If we can all agree that which is essential, then we can be in unity. This is one faith. One Faith has nothing to do with primacy of Peter , or Marian doctrines, or transubstantiation, or intercession of Saints , all of these are extra stuff, that in my opinion, are doubtful, am I granted liberty to not believe them? After all they aren’t essential. I have beliefs that are not essential , I will not tell you, you should believe them because anyways they aren’t essential. There is heresy and there is non-agreement on non-essential stuff.

Well, Saint Augustine would agree with me.

Love of our Elohim Yahweh be with you.