MERGED Why do some say the Catholic Church is not Christian?

[XinMinny]

I once heard a fundamentalist preacher say this about any association with Catholics:

The bolded statement is an eye-opening glimpse into the dark pit of the fundamentalist soul. If one believes that he or she has experienced what no other has (being “born again”), and possesses what others other than them could not possibly have (the Holy Spirit), it creates an elitist world-view that allows only those to whom we agree with, to enter.
Over the years, as a fundamentalist myself, I have heard “that person is now a (insert opposition group here), so I had to ’break fellowship’ with them” This is the fundamentalist doctrine of “separation”. A superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group. Those who do not belong to the group are called “unrepentant brothers and false teachers”
The problem is, that encompasses quite a population if one takes that to its logical conclusion.
This encompasses people far beyond hated Catholics and liberals. It also includes people within their own ‘circle’ with whom they disagree. To belong to this ever shrinking circle becomes the object they strive for.
In rationalizing that Christians who don’t agree with you are all “compromisers,” they assume that is the indicator of true spirituality.
They truly believe they are superior.
This theological “rigidity” is more important than all other factors. And sadly, there is a trail of broken relationships in their past that is blamed on the actions of the people they “separated” from. Tragically, these broken relationships include family members and former friends…
I believe one of the reasons fundamentalists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making.
They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist.
When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression. They deal with this by altering reality through ‘separation’ from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.

JustAServant,
I respect highly your analysis, especially as to the affects of negative thinking toward others. This practice frightens me. In part because I believe it is possible in all people, all groups. In fact, I find I want to guard against it in myself.
And, as a non-Catholic who occasionally reads this board, I would like to very respectfully suggest that some Catholic people have this attitude toward non-Catholics as well. I am speaking of “We have the truth. We are the True way. You are disobedient, rebellious…” It may be true that a person believes that someone else’s faith was born of a desire to listen to their own thoughts rather than someone who may have had authority over them. But, to call those who follow such a person “rebellious” can lead to the same kind of sad, lonely life you have described above.
Someone pointed out to me that Jesus laid aside His garments and washed the desciples’ feet because He knew that “He came from God and was going to God.” That is in John 13. The thought passed along was that He was very secure in His relationship to His Father, so He could conduct His life in the way He did. I would like to have that saem inward security that would allow all my discussions to be quiet, reasoned, and with respect for those with whom I am visiting. I want a big tent in my life, regardless of who believes what…
Sorry to be lengthy.
Minny

 

[JonNC]

I think this is a common misperception of people who have little knowledge of their history. All the Protestant ecclesial communities came out of the Catholic Church.

Now, before you say “but I am not Protesting anything”, I will add that modern American “bible churches” who believe that their faith came out of the bible are still dependent upon the Catholic Church, since the Bible is a Catholic book, and no bible churches would be in existence at all without it.

“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we have received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.”

-Luther

Jon

 

[gmcbroom]

Minny no offense taken. I’ve heard it as well.
Its a mistaken belief but prevalent. Catholics don’t worship Mary. It’s understandable why they get that view though. Here’s a good way to look at it. Take Gabriels message to Mary when he first met her. “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you.” Now here is a being whose very existance is spent praising God since the beginning. What’s he doing when he say’s that? Simple, he’s acknowledging God within her. Not that she’s God. We don’t worship Mary, but we do acknowledge her role in carrying Jesus and raising him. That may give the appearence of but it’s not meant too.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[guanophore]

No. That meeting added to the Old Testament and we do not use the later developing canon that you use. I had a thread on that earlier…I suppose you could look at it if bored enough

No, Rightly. The Alexandrian Septuagint, used by Jesus and the Apostles, was adopted formally and bound with the 27 books that we know as the New Testament. Neither was a “later developing canon”. In fact, you will find that no bibles existed without these books up until the Reformation, when some of the books were removed.

 

[guanophore]

. By the way, the last part of your post is a direct attempt to convert me. Which is not allowed. I cant do it and neither can you.

On the contrary, Rightly, the main purpose of CAF is evangelism. We want to convert both Catholics and non-Catholics. Only non-Catholics are compelled to follow this double standard not to proselytize.

 

[JustaServant]

JustAServant,
I respect highly your analysis, especially as to the affects of negative thinking toward others. This practice frightens me. In part because I believe it is possible in all people, all groups. In fact, I find I want to guard against it in myself.
And, as a non-Catholic who occasionally reads this board, I would like to very respectfully suggest that some Catholic people have this attitude toward non-Catholics as well. I am speaking of “We have the truth. We are the True way. You are disobedient, rebellious…” It may be true that a person believes that someone else’s faith was born of a desire to listen to their own thoughts rather than someone who may have had authority over them. But, to call those who follow such a person “rebellious” can lead to the same kind of sad, lonely life you have described above.
Someone pointed out to me that Jesus laid aside His garments and washed the desciples’ feet because He knew that “He came from God and was going to God.” That is in John 13. The thought passed along was that He was very secure in His relationship to His Father, so He could conduct His life in the way He did. I would like to have that saem inward security that would allow all my discussions to be quiet, reasoned, and with respect for those with whom I am visiting. I want a big tent in my life, regardless of who believes what…
Sorry to be lengthy.
Minny

What is described is a pattern among groups that have simply systemityzed isolation. It’s a patten not peculiar to either Catholic or Protestant. Individuals can certainly see themselves that way, but when it turns into an organized group, then it becomes isolated and elitist. And as time goes on, increasingly cultic.
That is why historic fundamentalism, such as I described not the popular definition, keeps dividing into smaller and smaller groups. All of whom claim to hold the ‘truth’, while all others are apostates or comprimisers.
But getting back to the OP, these churches latch on to the word ‘Christian’ and make it thier own in a negative sense.
They identify themselves over against those they consider not to be Christians.
So it becomes not a behavioral issue (you shall know them by their works), but instead which ‘group’ you belong to.
Mainline Protestant? Maybe.
Anglican, Orthodox? Probably not.
Catholic? Forget it.

 

[jlhargus]

Most Protestants I know certainly accept that Catholicism is Christian. However, they also think that Catholicism has been infected by various pagan teachings and superstitions that have become part of the core of the faith.

For example, many would see the emphasis on Mary as an importation from Greco-Roman and mystery religions. They might also cite the hierarchy as coming more from Rome and Greece than from scripture. 

The Protestants who are farthest from traditional Catholicism are the mainline Protestants, millions of whom are basically 'free-thinkers' and reject or modify many core Christian teachings. They might even question whether the God of Jesus would actually require a blood sacrifice to win our salvation. Many would find this 'paganish'. Somehow, God killing his only Son to gain redemption for us simply sounds too far-fetched. Ironically, such mainline Protestants are more likely to work with Catholics and accept them as Christians, despite these major differences. This is because they seldom are dogmatic, ready to accept and respect other religious faiths, including Catholicism as well as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

 Evangelical Protestants are nearer to Catholicism both in terms of core doctrines as well as on such social issues as gay marriage, abortion, etc. These same people, however, are less likely to accept Catholicism as Christian because the worship patterns are so differerent along with certain doctrines re Mary and the Eucharist as well as the role of the Papacy, etc. And, unlike most mainline Protestants, they usually insist upon doctrinal purity as Catholicism also does. They frequently view mainline Protestants are less than full-Christians, too!

JL: You are right to some extent. Before I was Catholic I had those erroneous misconceptions. It wasn’t because I SAW those things in Catholicism as I had no experience or knowledge of what Catholics did and believed. My knowledge was limited to the old wives tells, someone heard or read, such as Catholics worship Mary. Those misconceptions are far from the truth. I have found there is no faith group more in harmony with scripture, from baptism to Mary, than the Catholic Church.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

…Could someone please be so kind as to explain why some people hold this view of the Catholic Church? I’m looking specifically for the point of view of members of other Christian denominations who think this way, but anyone with information or an opinion please feel free to post.

In a word… laziness.

What I mean is many Catholics are confronted with a difficult teaching that butts up against their personal life, like the Sunday obligation, sex outside of marriage, or artificial birth control, “gay marriage” or abortion, or something like this, and instead of taking the time to really understand what the Church is saying about these things, they simply drift off. After floating rudderless for a while, these people may wash up on the shores of other church communities that say it’s all a matter of “personal choice” and then they can feel comfortable again, without confronting an aspect of their life that is in complete conflict with apostolic and bibilical christianity.

Because their justification for leaving cannot be “I left because I found the teaching too hard to follow” the justification is often an irrational attack or an unsupported assertion like “Catholics are crazy.” Eventually, the more convenient lie becomes easier to believe than the inconvenient truth of Catholic teaching.

The lie also infects those who were never Catholic - those who are sitting next to these lapsed Catholics in the other churches. These others do not hear Catholic doctrine or moral teaching from a practicing Catholic. Their only exposure to Catholic doctrine and moral teaching is from that lapsed Catholic who is trying to justify a decision to flee a hard teaching. From such a perspective, it’s even easier to discount Catholics as “crazy” and “not even christian.”

The problem is further compounded by Catholics who do not know how to respond to such statements when confronted by them, because they were so poorly catechized that they cannot explain the real reasons behind the doctrines that are being irrationally attacked.

Of course, this is just my own experience, arising from my temporary departure from the faith in college, when I found that Catholic teachings were not consistent with my lifestyle. Oh, how foolish I was! How poorly trained in the faith. And how grateful I now am to again be home and at peace in the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Robert

 

[tsering]

In a word… laziness.

What I mean is many Catholics are confronted with a difficult teaching that butts up against their personal life, like the Sunday obligation, sex outside of marriage, or artificial birth control, “gay marriage” or abortion, or something like this, and instead of taking the time to really understand what the Church is saying about these things, they simply drift off. After floating rudderless for a while, these people may wash up on the shores of other church communities that say it’s all a matter of “personal choice” and then they can feel comfortable again, without confronting an aspect of their life that is in complete conflict with apostolic and bibilical christianity.

Because their justification for leaving cannot be “I left because I found the teaching too hard to follow” the justification is often an irrational attack or an unsupported assertion like “Catholics are crazy.” Eventually, the more convenient lie becomes easier to believe than the inconvenient truth of Catholic teaching.

The lie also infects those who were never Catholic - those who are sitting next to these lapsed Catholics in the other churches. These others do not hear Catholic doctrine or moral teaching from a practicing Catholic. Their only exposure to Catholic doctrine and moral teaching is from that lapsed Catholic who is trying to justify a decision to flee a hard teaching. From such a perspective, it’s even easier to discount Catholics as “crazy” and “not even christian.”

The problem is further compounded by Catholics who do not know how to respond to such statements when confronted by them, because they were so poorly catechized that they cannot explain the real reasons behind the doctrines that are being irrationally attacked.

Of course, this is just my own experience, arising from my temporary departure from the faith in college, when I found that Catholic teachings were not consistent with my lifestyle. Oh, how foolish I was! How poorly trained in the faith. And how grateful I now am to again be home and at peace in the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Robert

You speak with truth, because you’ve been there. Thanks for the humble, but bold statement bro.

Peace

 

[guanophore]

Out of interest, would you describe Jesus whipping the money lenders out of the Temple as an example of rebellion?

Not a bit. Don’t you remember what He shouted at them while He was driving them out?

 

[guanophore]

I suppose so, yet he showed zeal for his Fathers House is what’s written. So in essence you could say he didn’t want the place profaned. You could say he rebelled against the actions of the world taking over his Father’s House.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

The comparison was that the Reformers were followed His will by rebelling against the authorities appointed by Christ.

Christ, on the other hand, was appointed by His Father to go to His people and bring them into all Truth.

I don’t recall any story about Martin Luther having a dove descend upon him and a voice crying “this is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

No. That meeting added to the Old Testament

No, that is not right. The 7 deutero-canonical works was part of the Old Testament for the Alexandrian Jews.

 

[jlhargus]

In a word… laziness.

What I mean is many Catholics are confronted with a difficult teaching that butts up against their personal life, like the Sunday obligation, sex outside of marriage, or artificial birth control, “gay marriage” or abortion, or something like this, and instead of taking the time to really understand what the Church is saying about these things, they simply drift off. After floating rudderless for a while, these people may wash up on the shores of other church communities that say it’s all a matter of “personal choice” and then they can feel comfortable again, without confronting an aspect of their life that is in complete conflict with apostolic and bibilical christianity.

Because their justification for leaving cannot be “I left because I found the teaching too hard to follow” the justification is often an irrational attack or an unsupported assertion like “Catholics are crazy.” Eventually, the more convenient lie becomes easier to believe than the inconvenient truth of Catholic teaching.

The lie also infects those who were never Catholic - those who are sitting next to these lapsed Catholics in the other churches. These others do not hear Catholic doctrine or moral teaching from a practicing Catholic. Their only exposure to Catholic doctrine and moral teaching is from that lapsed Catholic who is trying to justify a decision to flee a hard teaching. From such a perspective, it’s even easier to discount Catholics as “crazy” and “not even christian.”

The problem is further compounded by Catholics who do not know how to respond to such statements when confronted by them, because they were so poorly catechized that they cannot explain the real reasons behind the doctrines that are being irrationally attacked.

Of course, this is just my own experience, arising from my temporary departure from the faith in college, when I found that Catholic teachings were not consistent with my lifestyle. Oh, how foolish I was! How poorly trained in the faith. And how grateful I now am to again be home and at peace in the Catholic Church. Peace, Robert

JL: Excellent post and beautiful testimony

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by pablope
Where did you get the Trinity? The Bible (NT if you will)? Who spread Christianity beyond the confines of Jerusalem, of Palestine?

Originally Posted by Rightlydivide The Bible has God as its author. Which is of course Catholic doctrine as well
But yes, the majority text has its origins in Anglicanism and prior to that Catholicism/Orthodoxy.
Of course there is thousands of years of history but our church itself does not come from the Catholic Church. Of course prior Christians existed but any relationship is quite small.

Originally Posted by jlhargus
JL: Does your church teach God is a Trinity?

Originally Posted by jlhargus JL: I thought I woud repost this in case you really missed it

JL: Since you have deliberately ignored my question in two previous post on this line, as you have also done in other lines I will ask again. Does your faith group teach the Trinity.

Originally Posted by Rightlydivide
But our church is not from the Catholic Church…

JL: After reading you on several lines I believe your faith group is a split from Herbert Armstrong’s World Wide Church of God. My guess would be you belong to the Philadelphia Church of God. Don’t you think it is unfair to discuss others history when you don’t extend that same courtesy to others?

JL: I take your deliberate ignoring of my posts as a YES.

 

[StTommyMore]

No. That meeting added to the Old Testament and we do not use the later developing canon that you use. I had a thread on that earlier…I suppose you could look at it if bored enough

Actually, Wisdom is named as canonical in the Muratorian Fragment, and St. Athanasius held the deuterocanonicals in very high esteem.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

You will primarily find this in the more evangelical protestant sects.

I grew up as a child in a very fundamentalist evangelical church. My maternal grandfather was a minister in that church for 55 years. We spent summers with Grandpa and Grandma, and they took us to Camp Meetings, Revivals, etc.

I was taught in his church that the Pope was quite literally the Devil Incarnate on this earth. That all Nuns wore the habits to hide their horns and tails, because they were literally “Brides of the Devil”.

You can imagine my horror when my mother gave me 2 hours notice that she was placing me into a Catholic Boarding School (it was the cheapest boarding school she could find). NOTE: My mother, and her brothers, had all fallen away from their church and had no religion at all.

The result was that within 3 months I was asking to be baptized. I found those nuns to be the only people connected to religion that ever appeared to be happy to me. That was enough for me, I wanted to join a church that made people happy. I was nine years old then, and they refused to baptize me until I turned 13.

Most of the people that believe this have no real knowledge of the Catholic Church at all. They have been taught a bunch of hooey, their ministers have been taught a bunch of hooey, and NOTHING you say or do will normally convince them that they are wrong.

It is a case of, “I know what I know, and all the evidence you present is 100% false”.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

The result was that within 3 months I was asking to be baptized. I found those nuns to be the only people connected to religion that ever appeared to be happy to me. That was enough for me, I wanted to join a church that made people happy. I was nine years old then, and they refused to baptize me until I turned 13.

".

That is a great story.

 

[Izdaari]

Recently I’ve encountered several people who call themselves Christian, yet reject the status of the Catholic Church as a Christian entity…I’m really wondering why some people hold this view of the Catholic Church.

I’ve had the misfortune of being in the same room with people who were speaking badly of the Catholic Church several times…on one occasion, I was doing some work while a conversation was taking place beside me, and I could hear a friend of mine who is a member of a nondenominational church saying things like “we don’t consider the Catholic Church to be Christian” and “Catholicism is the reason why Christianity is looked down upon.” Even more disappointing than that was hearing another friend of mine, a Catholic, essentially agreeing with him, saying the Catholic Church “doesn’t make sense,” or something to that effect. Needless to say, I was incredibly angered and offended by these remarks, yet I chose to stay out of their conversation, knowing that I was not well-trained in apologetics, and not wanting to be backed into a corner by his aggressive arguments.

On other occasions I’ve heard bashings of the Pope, Papal infallibility, free will, faith and works, Catholic teachings on contraception/abortion, etc. but I know these objections are common and I hold the opinion that many people who have these objections are not fully informed as to the Catholic reasoning behind them. What really bugs me the most is people preaching that the Catholic Church is exactly what is wrong with Christianity, and that it is not Christian in its beliefs.

Could someone please be so kind as to explain why some people hold this view of the Catholic Church? I’m looking specifically for the point of view of members of other Christian denominations who think this way, but anyone with information or an opinion please feel free to post.

It doesn’t make any sense to me. I see the Catholic Church as a valid Christian Church, just not the valid Christian Church. 90+% of the Catholic Catechism is the same as Protestant doctrine, and the differences are not salvific issues. I expect to see plenty of Catholics in heaven, and Orthodox too.

 

[guanophore]

No. That meeting added to the Old Testament and we do not use the later developing canon that you use. I had a thread on that earlier…I suppose you could look at it if bored enough

I have a better idea. Try producing a Bible, prior to the Reformation, that did NOT include those books!

 

[guanophore]

The doctrines, beliefs, and actions of the Apostles found in scripture are those found in our churches.

I am sure that it is the perception of people who are in these ecclesial communities that this is the case.

However, since there are as many interpretations of scripture as there are belly buttons. we see that the doctrines, beliefs, and actions are just as numerous, all based upon those same scriptures.

And curiously, we have the Apostles teaching unity, and instructing the believers to be of one mind, and to prevent the teaching of heterodoxy.