Merit in faith alone?

[De_Maria]

nobody merits salvation
our salvation is achieved by the merits of Christ alone

I take it your answer is that there is no merit in faith alone? Unless you correct me, I’ll assume that is your reply.

It is certainly true that are saved by the merits of Christ. But before we are saved by His merits, we must first have faith in Him, is that correct?

And without this faith in Christ, it is impossible to please Him, is that correct?

So, there must be some quality of merit in faith, otherwise, why doesn’t God save also the faithless?

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[neophyte]

I am not looking to argue, but I am here to learn.

Where in the Holy Bible does it teach: “Once saved always saved”?

Nowhere.

Where does the Holy Bible teach: “Saved by faith alone”?

What it teaches is that we are saved by grace, through faith. The question is: what is faith?

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat, meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah, which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12 where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it’s about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the “obedience of faith”. At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

The Catechism expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that HolyChurch proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

James says that we are not saved by faith alone, but it’s important to remember that he was writing that letter to the Jews of the diaspora. It seems to me likely that they were being influenced by the surrounding Greek culture, which is why he had to so painfully explain that faith is not separate from works. That’s something which would be obvious to a native speaker of Hebrew, but perhaps not so much to one who grew up speaking Greek as his primary language. And since the letter was originally written in Greek, then the Hebraic connotation would have to be explained because it would not be obvious.

Of course, if I have this wrong then I’d like to be corrected. But I’ve been saying this for a long time and so far no one’s spoken up.

 

[fhansen]

Agreed!

Hm? You mean as far as whether He rewards or punishes? I’d have to agree.

Thanks.

My point was that, regardless of our salvation theology, what we do counts, despite what some of the Reformed persuasion maintain. Even faith is a response-the grace given us to believe in God and His promises can be rejected-which is why salvation is not universal.

 

[fred_conty]

Sorry. I actually was hoping Protestants would bite. That’s why I added the word, “alone”.

Sounds like you got that straight from the Catechism. Agreed!

It is catechetical. But the Bible also bends our ears to this.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Jesus was asked: How does one inherit eternal life?

His answer: Love! Luke 10: 25 and following.

These are additional passages that I use:

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I Timothy 1: 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Faith Does Works
Galatians 5: 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
James 2: 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Faith Obeys
Hebrews 11: 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Romans 1: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[jcrichton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrichton
Though some believe such things… NOT!

None of us merits Salvation!

I’m surprised that you are Catholic and would give that answer. Let me ask you, who is the Judge? You or God?

I understood the term “merit” to imply that we deserve Salvation (or that is owed to us); there are people who believe that… all someone needs to do is recite some formula and claim Jesus as Savior… others that you be born in the Church (do nothing else till you die)… others that you be a “good” person… I may be wrong but I’ve never learned that my Catholicity was a seal that secured my Salvation–and I’ve yet to find the “keys” that guarantee Salvation.

…as for the Judge… I played one in hs–it’s better than being the king!

There’s but One Judge… and He has determined that we must “…come to Me…” and “…without Me, you can do nothing…”

Quote:
Salvation is a free Gift (St. John 1:1-14; 3:16-21 and 15:1-10) which comes with but one condition (“If you love Me, keep my Commandments.”)

If it comes with a condition, then in what way is it free?

…ah but there’s the twist… it is free because there’s nothing we can do to Obtain Salvation; it has been granted, as St. Paul said, in Christ Jesus, even before Creation.

Yet, that does not mean that anyone can get it, whenever and however we wish… do you recall Jesus’ parable of the wedding feast, the one where the king/wealthy man invited his best budds over? …when the festivities were about to begin all of his special guests (the people of Israel) shunned him by refusing to attend and by abusing his servants (prophets); he sent his armies to exterminate the ungreatful bunch and ordered his servants to *fill the house *with everyone they found on the roads; it became a huge gathering… but there was one joker in the midst who set his own terms and got kicked out–you see, he did not bother to dress for the occasion (Apocalypse 7:9-17); then there are the ones of whom Jesus foretold “…not all who call me Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven…”

Quote:
…the best that we can do is contribute,

What can we contribute, if according to you, we have nothing of merit?

Correct!, we have nothing of merit… for there’s none righteous, not even one!

56 Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable: always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:56-58–DRV)

It is not that we merit anything at all (if I preach the Gospel, I’ve done nothing but what was expected/demanded of me, useless servant!–paraphrasing St. Paul)… what matters is that we do it in Christ for it is Christ Jesus Who exalts us!

Let me ask you, what does this mean?
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It sounds to me as though God is saying that those who keep the commandments receive the right to eternal life. Putting in a negative fashion, those who do not do the commandments do not receive the right to eternal life. If you read verse 15, you’ll see that is precisely the meaning of this verse.

…which brings us to St. John 15:1-10; since we are completely dependent upon Christ, there’s nothing that we can do to merit Salvation–should I have said: ‘outside of Christ, there’s nothing we can do to merit Salvation?’

Quote:
in Christ, by building on the Rock!

And you as well,

…I don’t follow… did you mean that I too should build on Christ or were you intimating that I am equating myself to the Rock? …if the first, did not know I hadn’t been… sorry!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I am not looking to argue, but I am here to learn.

Where in the Holy Bible does it teach: “Once saved always saved”?

Where does the Holy Bible teach: “Saved by faith alone”?

Also, again I am not here to argue. And, are we allowed to discuss these topics?

Thanks!

I do not think I will be answering, but would like to read the answers of others.

Again, thanks and God Bless

…search everything… keep what is good–paraphrasing St. Paul… we are allowed to search; even to disagree with one another and the Church (granted once we push that envelope we are, alone, heading against the tide and we all remember what happened to St. Peter when he tried going it alone!); what should concern us is the reason/s why we seek answers…

I love searching the Scriptures… so I welcome almost any exchange that would cause me to press on…

…the “once saved” theory? I’ve never found it in Scriptures; in order for that belief to be sound we must reject every passage that demonstrates that we must be perfected and that we must be careful not to lose Salvation… some would argue that Scriptures speak only against those who did not know Jesus (non-Believers), but it is Jesus Himself that warns that not all who call Him Lord will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; He even goes as far as presenting an end of times scenario where some appropriate Him and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to perform wonderous signs… but at the end He tells them to depart from Him for *He *does not know them!

…faith alone? …the closest is “not by faith alone!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

I understood the term “merit” to imply that we deserve Salvation (or that is owed to us);

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

there are people who believe that… all someone needs to do is recite some formula and claim Jesus as Savior… others that you be born in the Church (do nothing else till you die)…

They would be wrong.

others that you be a “good” person…

If that means, “keep the Commandments”, they would be right.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I may be wrong but I’ve never learned that my Catholicity was a seal that secured my Salvation–and I’ve yet to find the “keys” that guarantee Salvation.

I don’t know why you are even bringing that up. Did I say that you were once saved always saved?

…as for the Judge… I played one in hs–it’s better than being the king!

There’s but One Judge… and He has determined that we must “…come to Me…” and “…without Me, you can do nothing…”

Thank you. There is one Judge. And you ain’t Him. But you offered more information. It would seem that He considers “coming to Him” to be a meritorious action. Otherwise, He would not reward that action with eternal life. Am I right?

…ah but there’s the twist… it is free because there’s nothing we can do to Obtain Salvation; it has been granted, as St. Paul said, in Christ Jesus, even before Creation.

On the contrary, doing the Father’s will, obeying the Son, is how we obtain salvation:
Deuteronomy 30:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Obedience is what God demands:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yet, that does not mean that anyone can get it, whenever and however we wish… do you recall Jesus’ parable of the wedding feast, the one where the king/wealthy man invited his best budds over?

Again, I never said such a thing, so why are you introducing it? The comment you made with which I differ is this:
You said:
None of us merits Salvation!

The Church teaches that God is Judge. He decides who merits and who does not.

…when the festivities were about to begin all of his special guests (the people of Israel) shunned him by refusing to attend and by abusing his servants (prophets); he sent his armies to exterminate the ungreatful bunch and ordered his servants to *fill the house *with everyone they found on the roads; it became a huge gathering… but there was one joker in the midst who set his own terms and got kicked out–you see, he did not bother to dress for the occasion (Apocalypse 7:9-17); then there are the ones of whom Jesus foretold “…not all who call me Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven…”

The ones who remained, the ones who dressed up, obviously behaved meritoriously.
The one who didn’t, was expelled.

Have you not read the rest of Matt 7:
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Obviously, those who have done the Will of the Father are judged meritorious.

Correct!, we have nothing of merit… for there’s none righteous, not even one!

56 Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable: always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:56-58–DRV)

It is not that we merit anything at all (if I preach the Gospel, I’ve done nothing but what was expected/demanded of me, useless servant!–paraphrasing St. Paul)… what matters is that we do it in Christ for it is Christ Jesus Who exalts us!

Not in your eyes. But God’s eyes are the one’s that count. And He says that obeying His Son, obeying His Commandments, merits eternal life.

…which brings us to St. John 15:1-10; since we are completely dependent upon Christ, there’s nothing that we can do to merit Salvation–should I have said: ‘outside of Christ, there’s nothing we can do to merit Salvation?’

Yes. Because with Christ, we merit according to His works. His merits are applied to us.

…I don’t follow… did you mean that I too should build on Christ or were you intimating that I am equating myself to the Rock? …if the first, did not know I hadn’t been… sorry!

Huh? Its your saying. I merely said, “back at ya.”

Maran atha!

Angel

Amen! Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[TimothyH]

…faith alone? …the closest is “not by faith alone!”

Gotta love James…

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? (James 2:20)

Again, I think faith has great merit, but only when it is linked with a williness to prove that faith by actually doing what one professess to believe. Faith without works is dead just as works without faith is dead.

Even the term “Love” when used to describe works can be as vague as the word “Faith.” If faith is a belief in your heart, then so is love - nothing more than a feeling, a longing, or a desire in your heart. But Catholics know that Love is more than a feeling (remember the old song by Boston?) All through the Bible, over and over and over, love is described as a certain type of behavior. Paul describes love…

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthains 13:4-7)

Patience. Trust. Humility. Politeness. Forbearance. Forgiveness. Honesty. Enduring suffering. These are love. John describes love as well…

The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him?Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. (1 John 3:16-18)

Generosity. Willingness to lay down your life for a fellow member of Christ’s body - not symbolically or in your heart or by saying “Well, I’ll pray for you” but taking a bullet for each other, just as Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. This is love.

Love is conceived in the heart but love is born - becomes incarate in the world - when it touches another human being through our actions. “Let it be done to me according to your will, even if I die.” That’s love.

May God grant that we can be that strong.

-Tim-

 

[De_Maria]

Of course, if I have this wrong then I’d like to be corrected. But I’ve been saying this for a long time and so far no one’s spoken up.

Nor do I disagree with anything you’ve said. In fact, I’m quite impressed with the explanation coming from someone who styles himself, neophyte.

However, if I might comment on the following. Not to disagree, but merely to give a separate explanation, which may be right or wrong. I believe it is right however. You said:

James says that we are not saved by faith alone, but it’s important to remember that he was writing that letter to the Jews of the diaspora. It seems to me likely that they were being influenced by the surrounding Greek culture, which is why he had to so painfully explain that faith is not separate from works. That’s something which would be obvious to a native speaker of Hebrew, but perhaps not so much to one who grew up speaking Greek as his primary language. And since the letter was originally written in Greek, then the Hebraic connotation would have to be explained because it would not be obvious.

I believe St. James actually thought that he was contradicting St. Paul. I think the epistle of St. James came about as a result of this episode:
Acts 21:18-22
King James Version (KJV)
** 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.**

19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

** 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.**

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

I believe, St. James thought that he was contradicting St. Paul.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

My point was that, regardless of our salvation theology, what we do counts, despite what some of the Reformed persuasion maintain. Even faith is a response-the grace given us to believe in God and His promises can be rejected-which is why salvation is not universal.

Agreed.

 

[De_Maria]

It is catechetical. But the Bible also bends our ears to this.

Agreed.

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus was asked: How does one inherit eternal life?

His answer: Love! Luke 10: 25 and following.

These are additional passages that I use:

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I Timothy 1: 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Faith Does Works
Galatians 5: 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
James 2: 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Faith Obeys
Hebrews 11: 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Romans 1: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Good verses.

 

[jcrichton]

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

They would be wrong.

If that means, “keep the Commandments”, they would be right.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I don’t know why you are even bringing that up. Did I say that you were once saved always saved?

Thank you. There is one Judge. And you ain’t Him. But you offered more information. It would seem that He considers “coming to Him” to be a meritorious action. Otherwise, He would not reward that action with eternal life. Am I right?

On the contrary, doing the Father’s will, obeying the Son, is how we obtain salvation:
Deuteronomy 30:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Obedience is what God demands:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Again, I never said such a thing, so why are you introducing it? The comment you made with which I differ is this:
You said:
None of us merits Salvation!

The Church teaches that God is Judge. He decides who merits and who does not.

The ones who remained, the ones who dressed up, obviously behaved meritoriously.
The one who didn’t, was expelled.

Have you not read the rest of Matt 7:
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Obviously, those who have done the Will of the Father are judged meritorious.

Not in your eyes. But God’s eyes are the one’s that count. And He says that obeying His Son, obeying His Commandments, merits eternal life.

Yes. Because with Christ, we merit according to His works. His merits are applied to us.

Huh? Its your saying. I merely said, “back at ya.”

Amen! Sincerely,

De Maria

…I think that we are standing in front of that great abstract painting and we are discribing it from similar perspectives but using different languages (not a fan of museums); my perspective is that the Father calls us to Jesus (Faith) and Jesus is Salvation Revealed (“abide in Me” for I am the Resurrection and Life) and when we surrender our will to God’s Will the Holy Spirit’s Gifts and Guidance provides us with the means to Live that Faith as a responseto Christ’s Call to Salvation–every step has been generated by God, for God and through God, for our Salvation… it is not that we love God but that He Loved us first… appart from Jesus we do not merit Salvation because we all fall short of the Glory of God… yeah, even those who are “good” people since pride and vanity gets in the way of a truly selfless act as giving themselves or of themselves for others (and those others cannot be relatives or friends)…

…the misunderstanding at the end was due to your manner of closing (I picked it up only after I read through a latter reply where you used the same phrase/sentence).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Gotta love James…

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? (James 2:20)

Again, I think faith has great merit, but only when it is linked with a williness to prove that faith by actually doing what one professess to believe. Faith without works is dead just as works without faith is dead.

Even the term “Love” when used to describe works can be as vague as the word “Faith.” If faith is a belief in your heart, then so is love - nothing more than a feeling, a longing, or a desire in your heart. But Catholics know that Love is more than a feeling (remember the old song by Boston?) All through the Bible, over and over and over, love is described as a certain type of behavior. Paul describes love…

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthains 13:4-7)

Patience. Trust. Humility. Politeness. Forbearance. Forgiveness. Honesty. Enduring suffering. These are love. John describes love as well…

The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him?Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. (1 John 3:16-18)

Generosity. Willingness to lay down your life for a fellow member of Christ’s body - not symbolically or in your heart or by saying “Well, I’ll pray for you” but taking a bullet for each other, just as Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. This is love.

Love is conceived in the heart but love is born - becomes incarate in the world - when it touches another human being through our actions. “Let it be done to me according to your will, even if I die.” That’s love.

May God grant that we can be that strong.

-Tim-

It is interesting that Christ offered a parable where at the end of times Faith would be proven by the verb: Love (yeah a little poetic license)–it is not surprising that the Apostles were so invested in Teaching that we cannot claim to love God if we hate/have no love for those around us… I often quote St. Paul’s definition of Love because it both centers us in Christ and denies any objection that may surface in the back of our mind/heart as we may be tempted to believe hollowood’s version of “love” (egotistic, self-gratifying, occupation with having more or better).

…no wonder Jesus exclaimed that if we do not hate ourselves (submit our wills to God’s) we cannot become His disciples!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

… appart from Jesus we do not merit Salvation because we all fall short of the Glory of God…

Absolutely!

I think that we are standing in front of that great abstract painting and we are discribing it from similar perspectives but using different languages (not a fan of museums); my perspective is that the Father calls us to Jesus (Faith) and Jesus is Salvation Revealed (“abide in Me” for I am the Resurrection and Life) and when we surrender our will to God’s Will the Holy Spirit’s Gifts and Guidance provides us with the means to Live that Faith as a responseto Christ’s Call to Salvation–every step has been generated by God, for God and through God, for our Salvation… it is not that we love God but that He Loved us first… appart from Jesus we do not merit Salvation because we all fall short of the Glory of God… yeah, even those who are “good” people since pride and vanity gets in the way of a truly selfless act as giving themselves or of themselves for others (and those others cannot be relatives or friends)…

…the misunderstanding at the end was due to your manner of closing (I picked it up only after I read through a latter reply where you used the same phrase/sentence).

Agree one hundred percent!

Maran atha!

Angel

Amen!

Sincerely,

De Maria