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Ben_Masada
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You see? Jews can be stupid sometimes. Now, it’s my turn because I didn’t understand this post of yours. I wouldn’t have in their places what? I didn’t get it.
Ben:
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Ben:
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Ben_Masada
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You remind me of someone who had fallen into the bottom of a well, spent a hard time climbing up, when he was close to reach the edge with his hands, fell all the way back to the bottom again.
I was following what I thought it was a nice progress out of the Platonic cave, but you have decided that what Plato saw outside the cave is not worthy the effort of a change. But I am sure you are still alive. And as long as there is life, there is a chance to live.
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Ben_Masada
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No Lapell, I told you already, and I tell you again: I am NOT a Rabbi. Married to a Rabbi’s daughter for 14 years, but I am not a Rabbi. I am just a student of the Scriptures. A regular member of the Jewish People. An adept of the Faith of Jesus, which
was Judaism. A Jew with the mission to serve as light unto the Gentiles, according to Isaiah 42:6. That’s all. If you want to continue studying with me, we might have something
to learn from each other. If you don’t, you might as well continue eating flat without salt. Because, as Jesus himself said to the Jews, we are the salt of the earth. (Mat. 5:13)
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jlhargus
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JL: Can a redeemer be unclean? Could Judah not have avoided being chastised? Would Judah not have survived by turning from their sins and offering a clean sacrifice in the Temple? Did Israel have any way to return to God without unity with Judah? Could Israel offer an acceptable sacrifice for their sins separated from Judah and the Temple? What are the sins that caused the need for a redeemer?Judah was judged and sentenced to 70 years of exile in Babylon for his own sins. But the chastisement upon Judah for these sins could be expiated through temporary exile. Then, God would take him back, as He did, according to Daniel 9:24 when the transgression stopped, the guilt had been expiated and Everlasting justice returned to the People. These were different sins from the one that caused the need for a redeemer, which Israel had to become and pay with his death so that Judah survived.
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jlhargus
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JL: Did Jesus not also say? … But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. Mt5:13No Lapell, I told you already, and I tell you again: I am NOT a Rabbi. Married to a Rabbi’s daughter for 14 years, but I am not a Rabbi. I am just a student of the Scriptures. A regular member of the Jewish People. An adept of the Faith of Jesus, which
was Judaism. A Jew with the mission to serve as light unto the Gentiles, according to Isaiah 42:6. That’s all. If you want to continue studying with me, we might have something
to learn from each other. If you don’t, you might as well continue eating flat without salt. Because, as Jesus himself said to the Jews, we are the salt of the earth. (Mat. 5:13)
Ben:
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jlhargus
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Did Malachi 1:1-14 not tell us what is or is not acceptable? Did Malachi not tell us of a pure offering the Gentiles will offer? Is Christ not the only pure Eucharist=Todah Thank offering (sacrifice of the mass)? Do not the Rabbis say the Todah, thank offering, will never end?
Ex 25:30 …you shall set the bread of the presence on the table before me always [In the earthly Temple Holy of Holies the bread of the presence was placed on a table before the presence of God, so God could see it always. The Temple bread of the presence is an example and shadow of Christ and his real presence in the bread of life, who will stand in the midst of the throne of God our Father as a Lamb slain, showing forth the propitiatory sacrifice of the cross, before the Father always, our pure, eucharist=todah thank offering.] Rv 5:6 And I beheld… lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb as it had been slain … [Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb with his propitiatory, atoning, blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating for us as our High Priest in the order of Melchisedec, ever showing forth and making present his once for all sacrifice through our pure Eucharist=Todah offering.] Malachi 1:11 For from the rising to going down of the sun my name shall be great among the Gentiles, in everyplace incense shall be offered…and a pure offering will be made, Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne …stood a Lamb as it had been slain…Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. … Hb 7:24 … this man… continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. …Hb 8:1…We have such an high priest…set on the right hand of Majesty… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 …serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things … … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… mediator of a better covenant.
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Ben_Masada
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Yes, he did. Have I lost my ability to salt? I don’t think so. Before I arrived in this Forum you guys were tit-chatting on common beliefs unable to learn a thing from each other. Since I have been here there is new life. The food has acquired the flavor it was missing. If you stop letting pride speak louder than commonsense, you will agree with me that’s true.
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Ben_Masada
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We are not talking about animals but humans. The cleanness or uncleanness of humans is spiritual. And the sins Israel died for, he was clean of. Judah had rejected God’s Covenant and had to go. But because of God’s promise to David in I Kings 11:36, Israel had to redeem Judah.
Judah’s sins could not be mended by a temporary chastisement. The sins that could, Judah did make ammendments during 70 years of exile in Babylon. The purpose of animal sacrifices in the Temple was not for forgiveness of sins but to serve as a prototype for the supreme sacrifice of Israel.
Animal sacrifices without repentance served no purpose. To set things right with God, one must repent and obey. (Isa.1:18,19) Rejection of God’s Covenant is what caused the need for a redeemer.
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Lapell
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Well, been upset, witnessing what they were witnessing in their times? I’m quite sure you would have… And I should not be upset by what you seem to have been doing with the thread of the Wedding at Cana if I do believe Jesus to be the real Messiah and God the Son? Would it really be a mistake on God’s part to come to this world as a man? How can you tell? Can you tell God how He should act as God?You see? Jews can be stupid sometimes. Now, it’s my turn because I didn’t understand this post of yours. I wouldn’t have in their places what? I didn’t get it.
Ben:
Whatever plan God has, if it involves us and we refuse to take part in its achievement, wouldn’t you say we are becoming His adversaries, and if the plan involves operations from God into us but we say no, then God won’t do anything in us because He wouldn’t do His things in us without our consent. And so it would not be God’s fault, really…
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Lapell
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I don’t think your analogy is adequate or proper here. And you know, you may also fall under the very category you are putting me into. Maybe then my telling would not quite be proper or adequate either…You remind me of someone who had fallen into the bottom of a well, spent a hard time climbing up, when he was close to reach the edge with his hands, fell all the way back to the bottom again.
I was following what I thought it was a nice progress out of the Platonic cave, but you have decided that what Plato saw outside the cave is not worthy the effort of a change. But I am sure you are still alive. And as long as there is life, there is a chance to live.
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Lapell
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O.K. then, but be careful not to put too much salt in the food you prepare, for then it would taste really awful. Just a pinch would do…No Lapell, I told you already, and I tell you again: I am NOT a Rabbi. Married to a Rabbi’s daughter for 14 years, but I am not a Rabbi. I am just a student of the Scriptures. A regular member of the Jewish People. An adept of the Faith of Jesus, which
was Judaism. A Jew with the mission to serve as light unto the Gentiles, according to Isaiah 42:6. That’s all. If you want to continue studying with me, we might have something
to learn from each other. If you don’t, you might as well continue eating flat without salt. Because, as Jesus himself said to the Jews, we are the salt of the earth. (Mat. 5:13)
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Lapell
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Also, we also have our salt in Christianity. Jesus was born a Jew, and the Apostles were all Jews.
And though a number of you may deny any continuity between Christianity and Judaism, the Church has always claimed the chain of continuity between what the Church teach and what Judaism teach, at least until the Jewish authorities decided to expell from the synagogues all those who claimed to be disciples of that Jesus of Nazareth…(Although a good number of her members, including members of the clergy, did think that Jews should be done away with, out of disordered pride. But they were not following the Magisterium of the Church in doing so, they yielded to their own opinions based on looks and appearances)
And though a number of you may deny any continuity between Christianity and Judaism, the Church has always claimed the chain of continuity between what the Church teach and what Judaism teach, at least until the Jewish authorities decided to expell from the synagogues all those who claimed to be disciples of that Jesus of Nazareth…(Although a good number of her members, including members of the clergy, did think that Jews should be done away with, out of disordered pride. But they were not following the Magisterium of the Church in doing so, they yielded to their own opinions based on looks and appearances)
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Lapell
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Oh, then excuse me! I must have passed over that post without seeing it, forgive me!!No Lapell, I told you already, and I tell you again: I am NOT a Rabbi. Married to a Rabbi’s daughter for 14 years, but I am not a Rabbi. I am just a student of the Scriptures. A regular member of the Jewish People. An adept of the Faith of Jesus, which
was Judaism. A Jew with the mission to serve as light unto the Gentiles, according to Isaiah 42:6. That’s all. If you want to continue studying with me, we might have something
to learn from each other. If you don’t, you might as well continue eating flat without salt. Because, as Jesus himself said to the Jews, we are the salt of the earth. (Mat. 5:13)
Ben:
And which branch of Judaism are you from? Orthodox? Chabad? Conservative? Reform? Chassidic?
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Lapell
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Well, in acting that way we are not unique. Anyone passionate about what he or she has to present and defend would not easily yield to opinions outside of his/hers unless he would clearly see that his/her views, or some of them, are mistaken…Yes, he did. Have I lost my ability to salt? I don’t think so. Before I arrived in this Forum you guys were tit-chatting on common beliefs unable to learn a thing from each other.
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Lapell
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I realize you must have spoken out of sincere trust into things that you were taught or told about Jesus and the Church and the Christians. From my point of view, it sounded like you could have been the one who made up a false teaching on the Wedding at Cana. I really had no way to know.
One way or another, however, my warning about false witnessing, I think, was (and still is) quite in order…
One way or another, however, my warning about false witnessing, I think, was (and still is) quite in order…
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Ben_Masada
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Non-denominational. I usually congregate with Orthodox because that’s the closest to my place here. But I have been to all of the above and have no problem with any. In fact, I have even attended Chabad Yeshiva for some time.Oh, then excuse me! I must have passed over that post without seeing it, forgive me!!
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Ben_Masada
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I am aware of what you say about those of the Clergy who think that Jews should be done away with. Guess what? That time when the Catholic Church had that power is long gone. The strike at the head has been mortal. The Church can no longer raise its head.
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Ben_Masada
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Do you understand what you are trying to do? If I don’t believe that God came to this world as a man, you say I am trying to tell God how He should act as God. But when you teach that He did come to this world as a man, you don’t see yourself telling God how He should act. How convenient! Isn’t it? God to act as God He has to do the way you want not me. You guys can be funny sometimes!
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Lapell
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Ben, you are falling in the same mistake as most people, including Catholics, often fall into, and it’s that they don’t differentiate what comes from the Church and what comes from individuals or groups among her following their own opinions at the expense of the teachings of the Church. Even when we say this, even though it’s true, many people still don’t believe us and think that the Church-- as all of her members (which is really only one dimension of who the Church really is) – all made up her teachings as we go along… Wrong!I am aware of what you say about those of the Clergy who think that Jews should be done away with. Guess what? That time when the Catholic Church had that power is long gone. The strike at the head has been mortal. The Church can no longer raise its head.
Ben:
It’s like saying that all that a Jew can say and do, even the wrongs, necessarily is accepted as part of the traditional teachings of Judaism…
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Lapell
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Are you joking, Ben? Is it really your understanding of what I am trying to say?Do you understand what you are trying to do? If I don’t believe that God came to this world as a man, you say I am trying to tell God how He should act as God. But when you teach that He did come to this world as a man, you don’t see yourself telling God how He should act. How convenient! Isn’t it? God to act as God He has to do the way you want not me. You guys can be funny sometimes!
Ben:
As for saying He did come to this world as a man, I only say what the Church since the time of the first Apostles (not just saint Paul, but all of them) has constantly taught because I do believe it’s the truth. They taught it even under the threat of being expelled from the synagogues, persecuted, stoned or given up to the authorities to be put to death. They were very sure of what they were preaching.
What I said asking you if meant to tell God how to be God may have been put awkwardly. What I meant was: don’t you believe that God cando everything? For if he can create the whole universe out of nothing, how should it be impossible for Him to take the form of a man? You might say: “But why should he do that?” This is another matter.
Can He or can He not? If He happens to decide to come among His creatures as one of them, whatever the reason, isn’t He able to do so?
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