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Lapell
Guest
Why, thank you!** Let God bless you with a special blessing from Yerushalaim.
Ben:**
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**Listen my friend, if you canât live with the feeling that you have uncovered a new contradiction in the NT, take from me: Peter never confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, son of the Living God. That was a 50+ years later interpolation inserted either by the guy who wrote that gospel, or much more probably by the Fathers of the Church in the year 327 CE when they selected which books to enter the Canon of the NT.
They needed to document the Church with apostolical credibility.
Now, why whouldnât Peter give off that confession? Because he was a member of the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose headquarters was in Jerusalem, and they were coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, until Paul showed up 30 years later preaching about
that alleged confession and nearly got killed by the local Jews for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. What does it mean? That the Apostles in Jerusalem were as surprised about the gospel of Paul as were the other Jews.
Ben:
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swariffin
Guest
And the argument is because Peter was a Jew, and a Jew could never ever said that. Come on Ben, Peter was indeed a Jew, but he was no longer in Judaism. At that time, Peter was the follower of Jesus.**Listen my friend, if you canât live with the feeling that you have uncovered a new contradiction in the NT, take from me: Peter never confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, son of the Living God. That was a 50+ years later interpolation inserted either by the guy who wrote that gospel, or much more probably by the Fathers of the Church in the year 327 CE when they selected which books to enter the Canon of the NT.
They needed to document the Church with apostolical credibility.
Now, why whouldnât Peter give off that confession? Because he was a member of the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose headquarters was in Jerusalem, and they were coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, until Paul showed up 30 years later preaching about
that alleged confession and nearly got killed by the local Jews for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. What does it mean? That the Apostles in Jerusalem were as surprised about the gospel of Paul as were the other Jews.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**And Jesus never left Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Then, tell me who of the three is lying.
Ben:
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MGLechner
Guest
Ben Masada,
You tried using this argument on the Messiah Truth forumâŠit didnât fly there, and it wonât fly here either! As a matter of fact, you were told that your interpretation of Isaiah 53 and the Messiah didnât even square with Orthodox Judaism. So why bring it here?
messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/2612/t/Messiah-Ben-Joseph-vs-Messiah-ben-David.html
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Lapell
Guest
This, my friend, I am afraid, is YOUR interpolation (you may have received it from other people, but I can assure you that this interpolation you want us to believe as being the truth is plainly unauthentic!) You donât know the first thing about Christianity, and you are just spreading false propaganda, knowingly or not!**Listen my friend, if you canât live with the feeling that you have uncovered a new contradiction in the NT, take from me: Peter never confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, son of the Living God. That was a 50+ years later interpolation inserted either by the guy who wrote that gospel, or much more probably by the Fathers of the Church in the year 327 CE when they selected which books to enter the Canon of the NT.
They needed to document the Church with apostolical credibility.
Now, why whouldnât Peter give off that confession? Because he was a member of the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose headquarters was in Jerusalem, and they were coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, until Paul showed up 30 years later preaching about
that alleged confession and nearly got killed by the local Jews for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. What does it mean? That the Apostles in Jerusalem were as surprised about the gospel of Paul as were the other Jews.
Ben:
Your maintaining it is not a proof in itself at all that you are right. Hitler fooled many people by just maintaining his lies no matter what the people would say. There are other people in this world who act like him.
You say that the Apostles in Jerusalem were surprised about the gospel as preached by Paul⊠Is it just from their having been quiet that you infer this, Ben? They were under persecution already. Stephen was stoned, and the Apostle James, Johnâs brother, was executed quite earlyâŠ
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Lapell
Guest
This is an interpolation, however clever it may seem, and nothing more. You are not a Christian, Ben, and man, it certainly is obvious here.**Listen my friend, if you canât live with the feeling that you have uncovered a new contradiction in the NT, take from me: Peter never confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, son of the Living God. That was a 50+ years later interpolation inserted either by the guy who wrote that gospel, or much more probably by the Fathers of the Church in the year 327 CE when they selected which books to enter the Canon of the NT.
They needed to document the Church with apostolical credibility.
Now, why whouldnât Peter give off that confession? Because he was a member of the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose headquarters was in Jerusalem, and they were coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism, until Paul showed up 30 years later preaching about
that alleged confession and nearly got killed by the local Jews for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. What does it mean? That the Apostles in Jerusalem were as surprised about the gospel of Paul as were the other Jews.
Ben:
Would you not be more quiet in a time of persecution, yourself, were it because of who you claim to follow?
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Lapell
Guest
Also, tell me, why was the Canon of the Hebrew Bible established way after the Septuagint Bible that was used by all the Jews inside and outside of Judea and Samaria? It was not even established in Jesusâ times!!
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Lapell
Guest
Werenât they considered Jews until they were expelled from all synagogues by the Jewish authorities, Ben?**And Jesus never left Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Then, tell me who of the three is lying.
Ben:
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Lapell
Guest
And in the Book to the Apocalypse, Jesus refers to âthose who claim to be Jews but are notâ, He was speaking to the Churches, and this was certainly not aimed at His faithful disciples. (See the Book of Apocalyse, or Revelation, chapters 2 and 3)⊠Is it not strange that He doesnât say: âthose who claim to be Christians but are notâ?
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Lapell
Guest
How would He âleaveâ the faith of Israel? Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to accomplish it. And itâs the Jews who say that Jews who become disciples of Jesus of Nazareth are not Jews any more⊠Go figure!**And Jesus never left Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Then, tell me who of the three is lying.
Ben:
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MGLechner
Guest
For a Jewish response to Ben Masadaâs 2 Messiah theory, refer to the following link.
messiahtruth.yuku.com/topic/2612/t/Messiah-Ben-Joseph-vs-Messiah-ben-David.html
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**Sorry Lapell, but you are mistaken. There were many Jews, even Pharisees among the Nazarenes, followers of the Jesus. You are confusing disciples of Jesus with being disciples of the Christ of Paul. Thatâs the mistaken.How would He âleaveâ the faith of Israel? Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to accomplish it. And itâs the Jews who say that Jews who become disciples of Jesus of Nazareth are not Jews any more⊠Go figure!
Now, regarding the fact that Jesus came to accomplish the Law, thatâs only verse 17 of Matthew 5. We have also verses 18 and 19, when Jesus left it very clear that to accomplish the Law was a task upon all Jews and not only upon himself.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**They must have decided to follow Paul and were creating troubles for the Jews in their synagogues.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**If Jesus had been indeed what Paul claimed him to be, and his Apostles, for fear of persecutions, spent 30 years silent in Jerusalem, that kind of faith would not be worthy building a Church upon. In that case I would say, viva Paul who didnât care for his life, to dare to preach about Jesus as such in Jerusalem of all places.
Ben:
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Lapell
Guest
You really seem to believe âthe Jesusâ and âthe Christ of Paulâ are not the same person! And when Paul, then Saul of Tarse, had that vision on his way to Damascus, the vision never refered to himself as âChristâ, but as âJesusâ. And the Christians WERE persecuted when Saul was not yet a Christian. How come the Jewish authorities gave him letters to arrest every Christian he would find if Saul was on his own in persecuting the disciples of this Jesus of Nazareth? And the vision told Saul: âSaul, Saul, why do you persecute me?â Then Saul asked the vision: âWho are you, âadonâ ?â**Sorry Lapell, but you are mistaken. There were many Jews, even Pharisees among the Nazarenes, followers of the Jesus. You are confusing disciples of Jesus with being disciples of the Christ of Paul. Thatâs the mistaken.
Now, regarding the fact that Jesus came to accomplish the Law, thatâs only verse 17 of Matthew 5. We have also verses 18 and 19, when Jesus left it very clear that to accomplish the Law was a task upon all Jews and not only upon himself.
Ben:
(according to AndrĂ© Chouraquiâs translation of the Bible `La Bibleâ (in a French meant to give the flavour of the hebraisms included in the text) ) And Jesus then said to Saul: " Ă am Jesus, whom you are persecuting." This is the vision that started Saul/Paul into a journey that led to his becoming a disciple of that Jesus and to to preach the Gospel everywhere he wentâŠ
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Lapell
Guest
Where did you see that the Apostles remained âsilentâ in Jerusalem for 30 years? Says who, please?**If Jesus had been indeed what Paul claimed him to be, and his Apostles, for fear of persecutions, spent 30 years silent in Jerusalem, that kind of faith would not be worthy building a Church upon. In that case I would say, viva Paul who didnât care for his life, to dare to preach about Jesus as such in Jerusalem of all places.
Ben:
And how was there a persecution of disciples of Jesus in which the same Paulâthen Saul-- participated himself? I hate revisionism about the Holocaust, and in this case I donât hate it less!
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Lapell
Guest
Hum⊠Deacon Stephen wasnât exactly following Paul! In fact, he rather preceeded him!!**They must have decided to follow Paul and were creating troubles for the Jews in their synagogues.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**Stephen did not preceed Paul. This was about 15 years old already when Stephen was executed. But the case of Stephen is so clouded with interpolations that even his execution is put in doubt that it ever happened. And the reason must have been from a variety of sources.Hum⊠Deacon Stephen wasnât exactly following Paul! In fact, he rather preceeded him!!
Stephen was a zealous who must have got carried away with the fevour of a neophyte that he was and probably committed a religious blunder. Then, we have reasons not to believe that his execution ever happened because the Romans were already in charge of death penalties in Israel.
Ben:
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Ben_Masada
Guest
**Lapell, we have been so long discussing with each other that I am sure I have explained this to you already. But Iâll try again.
The headquarters of the Nazarenes, followers of Jesus, was in Jerusalem, and they were coexisting peacefully with mainstream Judaism. About 30 years after Jesus had been gone, Paul showed up in Jerusalem trying to join the Sect, and was allowed to stay under the supervision of Barnabas, an old friend of his.
Insteady of watching tight, Barnabas let Paul go unleashed and the man caused a havoc in Jerusalem preaching around that Jesus was the Messiah, the son of God, and that he had resurrected. The local Jews got in such an uproar that they were after him to kill him for preaching apostasy in Israel. Paul was lucky to escape because the Nazarenes got him down to Ceasarea, and from there they shipped him back to Tarsus where he belonged. (Acts 9:29-31)
Now, ponder. If Paul was nearly killed for preaching those things above about Jesus, what were the Apostles and Nazarenes in general preaching about Jesus? I tell you that they were as surprised about Paulâs gospel as were the rest of the Jews. Otherwise, they kept silent for about 30 years in Jerusalem if they ever knew any of those things in the gospel of Paul. Sometimes itâs possible to apprehend the Truth from deduction.
Ben:
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