Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

[wisdomseeker]

No, but were comparing a bathtub full of blood to a teaspoon. Worse yet it was done based on our ethnicity, not just our religion for 500 years. Give us at least a century after 1/3rd our population was murdered (in one of the most brutal fashions imaginable) before you ask us to stop playing victim. Many Catholics admit that the Holocaust couldn’t have happend without a long series events going back centuries that were partly inspired by the church, or at least its followers. What Jews did to Christians is ancient history. It’s like holding a grudge against Mongols.

we hold no grudges against no one. but when someone comes here and accused the Church of being a persecuter, i must remind you of the past.

the CC had nothing to do with the holocaust, i hope you know this by now.

do you even bother to find out how many Catholics died at the holocaust?

the CC has suffered throughout the centuries and still does it because of the Faith. how many Catholics died a bloody death just because they believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ? until this day, this still happens. it has not ended. how many Jews are dying because of their faith or their ethniticity now and days? we are still being persecuted. and will continue to be so because the Faith and proclamation of Christ will continue to the end. still you dont see Catholics crying about it. we dont even talk about it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

No, but were comparing a bathtub full of blood to a teaspoon. Worse yet it was done based on our ethnicity, not just our religion for 500 years. Give us at least a century after 1/3rd our population was murdered (in one of the most brutal fashions imaginable) before you ask us to stop playing victim. Many Catholics admit that the Holocaust couldn’t have happend without a long series events going back centuries that were partly inspired by the church, or at least its followers. What Jews did to Christians is ancient history. It’s like holding a grudge against Mongols.

here is good reading for you about the holocaust and Catholics. if you care to read it.

 

[Hosh]

Yes I know that more Gentiles died in the Holocaust then Jews. When were talking about Christian responsibility for this tragedy think of it analogous to how there will still be more white racism in the south two, maybe even 300 years after the civil war. Since your Catholic, I tell you, a lot of the blames on Luther and a lot of Catholics helped hide us during the war. Also many Popes have put an end to the violence throughout history, often Tentativley as the serfs were misinformed about the bible because they were often illiterate…ex: blood libel.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes I know that more Gentiles died in the Holocaust then Jews. When were talking about Christian responsibility for this tragedy think of it analogous to how there will still be more white racism in the south two, maybe even 300 years after the civil war. Since your Catholic, I tell you, a lot of the blames on Luther and a lot of Catholics helped hide us during the war. Also many Popes have put an end to the violence throughout history, often Tentativley as the serfs were misinformed about the bible because they were often illiterate…ex: blood libel.

the Church should not be held responsible for the violence against peoples since herself is one to be persecuted at all times. it will never end. she will continue to proclaim our Lord to the end of time. therefore expect to see her sufferings throughout the times.

Catholics gave their lives trying to protect the holy land from the muslims. if jews were killed at the time, it was not the intention of the Catholics. something had to be done to save the holy land and the Catholics were the only ones who had the courage to do it.

 

[Hosh]

If your talking about the capture of Jerusalem you are quite simply Misinformed. The crusaders killed everyone down to the last Muslim and Jew. When Saladin recaptured it, he spared Christians and Imported Jews to live there. He had a great Jewish Physician, Richard the Lionheart wanted him as his own

 

[KathleenGee]

In early Christianity, it was the Jews who understandably had the greatest antipathy towards Christian Jews.

Also, you need to know there are different takes on the Jewish people from Catholic sources vs. Orthodox. There is a poll going on right now on this forum. There are comments from past posts that reflect the stand of the Orthodox vs the Catholic.

I myself tend to see Orthodox Christians defined by their ethnic association and this personified in its schism from the Latin Rite, Rome.

I read the early history of Spain. It is a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist without faith. There are a number of passages in the Talmud whose perspectives balance out the perspective held by Jews towards Catholics in those days.

I have not read the actual documents of the Inquisition. But the number of deaths were done by laymen, about 6,000. Look at the American Church today, our Catholic political leaders and note how much they really follow our teachings…many of them the greatest protectors of infanticide through abortion.

The Spanish priests actually cleared many Jews and others from any penalties. That is the truth I learned recently regarding the documents. You must understand as well that Spain was overrun and plundered for 700 years by the Moors and had its period of time that they were made dhimmis with the full treatment in their native land…

As it has been said, the victims take on the behavior of the perpetrators…look at the history of Serbia…note their brutality in the Balkan War of the early 1990’s
I also read, and am open to correction, that the Jews were allowed to practice their faith – but not receive the Eucharist.

I listen to talk radio. There is this Jewish organization, non Christian, that is coming out on the truth of Pope Pius XII. My father was in the seminary and there were reports coming out about Nazi atrocities to the Jews in Poland. He got this book, ‘The Black Book of Poland’…it was printed in 1941. It showed atrocities committed against the Jews and Poles, it showed pictures of thousands of German Catholic priests being shot for opposing Naziism. My father left the seminary, but the sentiment from him in our family was that Pope Eugenio did heroic work in protecting the lives of the Jewish people.

The talk radio interviewed the Jewish man who said it was the KGB who got one of their own playwrights to author ‘The Deputy’. It was this play that began the spin that Pius did nothing.

There were a number of recognitions by the Jewish people as to what Pius did for them. This is a good one to search for. Christ said that there would always be chaff among the wheat…and there were bishops in Germany who collaborated with the Nazis just as we have bishops here who have collaborated with wealth and power or with the Death Culture.

Some day, may be in heaven, we will see that all the spins around us were our temptations to get us to lead us to hate and kill…

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes I know that more Gentiles died in the Holocaust then Jews.

Really?

A huge number of Christians died in the War itself but in the Shoah?

By the way, the vast majority of Catholics who died did so because of German eliminationist action, certainly, but did so because they were Polish ‘subhumans’ who were ‘incidentally’ Catholics.

 

[Anna_Scott]

First, these Fathers were not misguided, they were probably upset because of the the persecution of the Church by the Jews. Jesus Himself called them bunch of vipers, venon of the Pharisees, and so forth. it is time for the Jews to end their sensitivity and be more symphatetic to the CC. the Church has been persecuted for many centuries and still is in all parts of the World, yet, you dont see Catholics going around crying about it.

with all due respect to the Jews and God knows i love them but i think it is time to stop the victim attitude and assume some responsability here.

we hold no grudges against no one. but when someone comes here and accused the Church of being a persecuter, i must remind you of the past.

the CC had nothing to do with the holocaust, i hope you know this by now.

do you even bother to find out how many Catholics died at the holocaust?

the CC has suffered throughout the centuries and still does it because of the Faith. how many Catholics died a bloody death just because they believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ? until this day, this still happens. it has not ended. how many Jews are dying because of their faith or their ethniticity now and days? we are still being persecuted. and will continue to be so because the Faith and proclamation of Christ will continue to the end. still you dont see Catholics crying about it. we dont even talk about it.

the Church should not be held responsible for the violence against peoples since herself is one to be persecuted at all times. it will never end. she will continue to proclaim our Lord to the end of time. therefore expect to see her sufferings throughout the times.

Catholics gave their lives trying to protect the holy land from the muslims. if jews were killed at the time, it was not the intention of the Catholics. something had to be done to save the holy land and the Catholics were the only ones who had the courage to do it.

wisdomseeker,

Do you believe Pope John Paul II made a mistake when he asked the Jewish people for forgiveness?

Pope John Paul II: “We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

POPE JOHN PAUL II: “We humbly ask for forgiveness for the part that each of us with his or her behaviors has played in such evils thus contributing to disrupting the face of the church. At the same time, as we confess our sins let us forgive the faults committed by others towards us.”

Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

I see it addressed to Wisdomseeker…but yes, the Pope had to speak on behalf of atrocities committed by its members who caused great damage.

I cared for a Jewish woman who survived Dachau…She was sentenced to die that day, but the Americans came in and liberated them. I used to take her to the Jewish center for lunch. People thought I was her daughter. One day the table conversation was on Spain and how Spain was really getting it for what it had done to them…hundreds of years ago. My client looked at them and told them to knock it off.

One day I was allowed to pick up my son who went to a Catholic school. He came in to eat wearing a school sweatshirt with its name, and he was a cute little guy as well. The people there were very kind to him.

But my pastor thought it extreme as well to carry such injury for so long.

 

[Hosh]

Really?

A huge number of Christians died in the War itself but in the Shoah?

By the way, the vast majority of Catholics who died did so because of German eliminationist action, certainly, but did so because they were Polish ‘subhumans’ who were ‘incidentally’ Catholics.

Specifically they were only imprisoned if they spoke out against the Nazi’s, which they often did. They had the chance of remediation though. The point was to bring awareness of things like Ellie Wiesel protesting having a note in the national Holocaust museum that others were killed based on there ethnicity . Slav’s, Poles, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the Mentally ill, and (I guess cause there a minority) Jehova’s witnesses were singled out as well.

But they didn’t get the special treatment of impeding the war effort for the simple sake of killing more Jews. There was something very pathological going on.

 

[Kaninchen]

Specifically they were only imprisoned if they spoke out against the Nazi’s, which they often did. They had the chance of remediation though. The point was to bring awareness of things like Ellie Wiesel protesting having a note in the national Holocaust museum that others were killed based on there ethnicity . Slav’s, Poles, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the Mentally ill, and (I guess cause there a minority) Jehova’s witnesses were singled out as well.

The Poles are Slavs!

Indeed, the Slavs were to be eliminated (after us and the gypsies, when the war was won) - apart for a few who were to provide slave labour on the farms of the Greater Reich (which would include much of Western Russia).

 

[KathleenGee]

Hosh is correct about the Crusaders killing the Jews – who helped them as well.

Actually, Palestine, Egypt and Syria were the most heavily populated Christian populations before Islam. The plagues greatly weakened the people, and there was a moral laxity as well.

People think the Pope and Crusades were trigger happy and reactionary. Actually, the Muslims were attacking pilgrims on the way to the Holy Land and persecuting believers, asking for help for over 400 years.

Four hundred years, crying out for help to your Christian brothers and being ignored to be left to your own is a long time. Europe was enduring constant battles with barbarians and other conflicts of its own, even clergy taken to warfare.

 

[Hosh]

Sometimes I think my bible is “The Denial of Death”.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes I know that more Gentiles died in the Holocaust then Jews. When were talking about Christian responsibility for this tragedy think of it analogous to how there will still be more white racism in the south two, maybe even 300 years after the civil war. Since your Catholic, I tell you, a lot of the blames on Luther and a lot of Catholics helped hide us during the war. Also many Popes have put an end to the violence throughout history, often Tentativley as the serfs were misinformed about the bible because they were often illiterate…ex: blood libel.

Yes I know that more Gentiles died in the Holocaust then Jews. When were talking about Christian responsibility for this tragedy think of it analogous to how there will still be more white racism in the south two, maybe even 300 years after the civil war. Since your Catholic, I tell you, a lot of the blames on Luther and a lot of Catholics helped hide us during the war. Also many Popes have put an end to the violence throughout history, often Tentativley as the serfs were misinformed about the bible because they were often illiterate…ex: blood libel.

Indeed, Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and Their Lies” (1543) was, IMO, an offensive rant of anti-Judaism. Hitler latched on to this document of hatred and used it to justify his atrocities against the Jewish people. No doubt, Hitler would have done the same things, without Luther’s writing. Yet, Luther’s anti-Jewish writings were available to Hitler and suitable for Hitler’s cause.

Though Luther is known for his contributions to the Protestant Reformation; he began as a Catholic Priest and Theology Professor. He made accusations against the Catholic Church, yet wrote such evil regarding the Jews. IMO, Luther injured both Catholicism and Protestantism, with his anti-Jewish writings.

Anna

 

[Hosh]

At first Luther thought he could do what the CC couldn’t and convert us. The fact that it would put Jesus’s messiahship into question if his own people didn’t accept him as such protected us for along time. Back in those days, and even today, everyone loved a Jewish covert. Of course he couldn’t and he got frustrated to say the least. Many scholars pin the beginnings of racial-antisemitism to him.

 

[Anna_Scott]

At first Luther thought he could do what the CC couldn’t and convert us. The fact that it would put Jesus’s messiahship into question if his own people didn’t accept him as such protected us for along time. Back in those days, and even today, everyone loved a Jewish covert. Of course he couldn’t and he got frustrated to say the least. Many scholars pin the beginnings of racial-antisemitism to him.

Interesting perspective. I appreciate your comments.

Anna

 

[wisdomseeker]

wisdomseeker,

Do you believe Pope John Paul II made a mistake when he asked the Jewish people for forgiveness?

Pope John Paul II: “We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

POPE JOHN PAUL II: “We humbly ask for forgiveness for the part that each of us with his or her behaviors has played in such evils thus contributing to disrupting the face of the church. At the same time, as we confess our sins let us forgive the faults committed by others towards us.”

Anna

I am sorry Anna but i cannot discuss with you the reasons why the holy father did what he did. that is an understanding that you will have to find out for yourself.

:byzsoc:

 

[Hosh]

I am sorry Anna but i discuss with you the reasons why the holy father did what he did. that is an understanding that you will have to find out for yourself. :

Because he was a really cool dude. Not only did he hang out with Jews, save a Jew, but he actually used the Hebrew word for repentance and placed a letter in the wailing wall too. He got the priestly blessing in return.

Live long and prosper (its a summarized version)

 

[Anna_Scott]

First, these Fathers were not misguided, they were probably upset because of the the persecution of the Church by the Jews. **Jesus Himself called them bunch of vipers, venon of the Pharisees, and so forth. ** it is time for the Jews to end their sensitivity and be more symphatetic to the CC. the Church has been persecuted for many centuries and still is in all parts of the World, yet, you dont see Catholics going around crying about it.

with all due respect to the Jews and God knows i love them but i think it is time to stop the victim attitude and assume some responsability here.

we hold no grudges against no one. but when someone comes here and accused the Church of being a persecuter, i must remind you of the past.

the CC had nothing to do with the holocaust, i hope you know this by now.

do you even bother to find out how many Catholics died at the holocaust?

the CC has suffered throughout the centuries and still does it because of the Faith. how many Catholics died a bloody death just because they believe in the Lord Jesus the Christ? until this day, this still happens. it has not ended. how many Jews are dying because of their faith or their ethniticity now and days? we are still being persecuted. and will continue to be so because the Faith and proclamation of Christ will continue to the end. still you dont see Catholics crying about it. we dont even talk about it.

the Church should not be held responsible for the violence against peoples since herself is one to be persecuted at all times. it will never end. she will continue to proclaim our Lord to the end of time. therefore expect to see her sufferings throughout the times.

Catholics gave their lives trying to protect the holy land from the muslims. if jews were killed at the time, it was not the intention of the Catholics. something had to be done to save the holy land and the Catholics were the only ones who had the courage to do it.

wisdomseeker,

**Do you believe Pope John Paul II made a mistake when he asked the Jewish people for forgiveness?
**
Pope John Paul II: “We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

POPE JOHN PAUL II: “We humbly ask for forgiveness for the part that each of us with his or her behaviors has played in such evils thus contributing to disrupting the face of the church. At the same time, as we confess our sins let us forgive the faults committed by others towards us.”

Anna

I am sorry Anna but i cannot discuss with you the reasons why the holy father did what he did. that is an understanding that you will have to find out for yourself.

:byzsoc:

When you make comments about the Jews like, " Jesus Himself called them bunch of vipers, venon of the Pharisees," you are offending the Jews collectively as a people, which is offense.

You said, “the Church should not be held responsible for the violence against peoples.”

After reading your posts; I asked, “Do you believe Pope John Paul II made a mistake, when he asked the Jewish people for forgiveness?”

I didn’t ask why Pope John Paul II said these things, when he spoke to the Jewish people.

I asked, if you believe Pope John Paul II made a mistake, when he asked the Jewish people for forgiveness?

I think that is a fair question.

Anna

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

One, big key difference that no one has mentioned is that Messianic Jews believe in the literal fulfilling of the prophecies concerning Jesus’ second coming to save and restore the land and people of Israel, and then literally rule from Israel for a 1000 years before he turns the Kingdom over to the Father, then the New Jerusalem, etc. …Messianics usually prefer to stay within their own Jewish communities to make Jesus Christ an unavoidable issue to their brethern, the broken branches that can be grafted back in.

Yes, from what I’ve read, I would agree. To be more precise, Messianic Jews reject Replacement Theology and believe that Jews, even those who accept Jesus as Messiah, must still keep the Torah Law. That is why they stay within their own Jewish communities.