Many Jews (jews who do not believe Jesus is the messiah) would suggest that any Jew who believes in Jesus as the Messiah is no longer a “Jew”.
I think this is a true and correct observation but I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why from anyone defending the Jewish view.
This is sad given that many Jews, over time, have believed in others as the messiah (including recently, many lubuvich jews who continue to believe that their deceased rebbe is the messiah and who now, ironically, point to Isaiah 53 as being messianic) without being “divorced” from jewish identity.
The original Messiah concept was, quite obviously, very Jewish. The most notorious example was Akiba who anointed Bar Khoba a messiah and he wasn’t kicked out of Judaism even though he got it dreadfully wrong.
And professing Jesus/Yeshua to be Messiah does not, alone, amount to a claim that Jesus was God (or part of the godhead or even the Son of God, whatever that Jewish term might mean). One could simply say that Jesus was a failed messiah like Bar Khoba. But I suspect even that would constitute a conversion as far as Rabbinical Judaism is concerned.
So what is it about professing that Jesus/Yeshua was the messiah that so irks religious Jews?
I submit that it is a fundamental and founding dogma of Rabbinical Judaism that Jesus was not the Messiah. No other explanation makes sense of the facts. I think most Jews would rather give up on the messiah concept altogether than entertain even a denuded belief in a messianic Jesus.
Other Jews might draw the line at baptism (as a sign of joining another religion).
But John the Baptist was Jewish and he baptised Jews. I’ve heard Jews in these forums argue that baptism is a Jewish ritual appropriated by Christians. Obviously being explicitly baptised into another religion would constitute conversion but that begs the question as to what constitutes another religion. The performance of baptism, itself, is not a logical indicator. Again, I think you are correct in your observation but there is no logic to it.
There is also the issue of self identity. Many/most messianic jews consider themselves “jews” who believe in Christ. Some “messianic jews” (evangelical/protestant denomination of jewish descent) maintain a cultural identity with Jews but would easily label themselves Christian (as an appropriate label applied to any one, Jew or Gentile, who is a follower of Jesus).
Unfortuntely, that doesn’t seem to count for much. And, to be fair, it’s not unreasonable to say that a group determines group membership, not individuals. Still, you would expect some logic to prevail in that determination. And it is a popular question among Jews: What is a Jew? Virtually anything is permitted and entertained (including atheism and pantheism) except Jesus as messiah.
Hebrew Catholics clearly and unambiguously identify with Catholicism (by definition, as they are confirmed members of the Church). I imagine there are varying views within the Hebrew Catholic community on the level of identification with Judaism, Jewish feasts and Jewish culture. I am a Jewish believer who joined the Catholic Church (thus, I suppose, in some sense, a Hebrew Catholic), but I imagine my beliefs on the role of the 613 commandments in the Torah may be different than other Hebrew Catholics who might follow these or some of these commandments as a matter of sanctification.
Here are some questions that I would ask of you (not so much of you personally but of your point of view):
Do you associate with Catholics or Jews? Did/would you be more inclined to marry a non-Catholic Jew or Jewish Catholic than a gentile Catholic?
Could you imagine an intergenerational Hebrew Catholicism where Hebrew Catholics consistently intermarried with other Hebrew Catholics (or married Rabbinical Jews who either converted or agreed to raise their children as Hewbrew Catholic)? You said you don’t but could you imagine keeping the Torah at least as the Sadducees might have, not necessarily the oral torah?
What are your thoughts and feelings about replacement theology? Is the Jewish contribution to revalation a matter of history only or is there some special role awating them in the future? If the former, then there is no point to Messianic Judaism (and Hebrew Catholicism is just another social group like Irish Catholicism).
Just to let you know where I stand, I am very skeptical about replacement theology but I can’t imagine Hebrew Catholicism as in intergenerational phenomenon because it would entail a racial awareness that Catholics generally shun.
I believe that a majority of Jews did, in fact, convert to Christianity in the first two centuries AD and that they did not, for a variety of reasons, maintain their Jewish identity but simply merged into gentile Christianity through intermarriage. That seems to be the natural course of things.
I think that the Jewish/Christian schism is a tragedy of history, a sign of a fallen world.
