Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter Steven_John
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I wouldn’t call it an obsession. This thread just happens on the topic, what else do you expect we would talk about here when discussing Messianic Jews?
I wasn’t expecting you to talk about anything else, I was merely making an observation, in context. An observation from the perspective of a European - it’s one that could be made, not just by a Jew but by any Western European of any religion or none.
Plus being interested in the Jewish attitude to Jesus does not mean that one is obsessed in “converting” them.
Well, I suppose there are exceptions, few though they may be.
 
Hi, Ariel,

There is obviously a lot to consider here.
Tom,

What you are saying is one of the main reasons why Jews have been rejecting the Messiah for 2,000 years. There are several problems with your argument:

Not true. Jesus never expanded his mission to Gentiles but was sent only to the “lost sheep of Israel.” The early Church was entirely Jewish. The mission to the Gentiles began later, with the Peter/Cornelius event in Acts 10. Even then the mission to the Gentiles was an expansion of the Jewish mission, not a replacement of it. Paul still always went to the synagogues FIRST when entering a new city.

Well, not quite… in Luke 7 we have the UN-Resurrected Christ curing the Centurian’s servant and then in Matthew 28 we have the Resurrected Christ telling His Jewish Apostles to go to all nations and baptize them. As I appreciate it, Christ was sent to the “…lost sheep of Israel…” (Matt 10:6, Matt 15:24) and this is what the Old Testatment had as its main - but, not only - prophecy (Isaiah 42:5-9, Jeremiah 16:19-21). Christ, a Jew, picked 12 Jews to be His Apostles while on earth - and then picked Saul, another Jew, after the Resurrection. There is no doubt as the important role of the Jewish faith in the formation of Christianity. But - and this is probably where we will diagree - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we have moved on.

I think you are confusing the meaning of the term “Judaizer” and understanding it to mean something that it doesn’t. Just look at Rom 3:1-2. I was not clear in what I said. You are correct in your definition on the Judiazers trying to force Gentiles to become Jews first.

I do not know if there is an appropriate analogy for this, but, let me try and if it communicates anything, then it will be a limited success…🙂 My father’s parent’s were from Ireland and immigrated to the US. Their parents and their parent’s parents were from Ireland. But, as I understand it, a long time ago, it looks like people from northern Europe came and setteled in the area. Naturally, this group would have had their own unique customs - and some of these were brought directly over into the Irish culture…and were modified and redefined and simply evolved into what we have today. Now, for me to go back and celebrate northern European cultural practices because they are the basis for Irish culture isn’t going to happen. We have a historic link, but, this is of only academic interest.

In other words, to “Judaize” is to try to force Gentiles to become Jews. Jewish-Christians who wish to retain their Jewish identity are not “Judaizing” anyone. To try to “de-judaize” Jews is just as bad (if not worse) than to try to “judaize” gentiles.

It may be that we just have a modification (evloution?) of the term Judiazer - here there seems to be a group that wants to claim Jewish roots while maintaining (?) Christ’s teaching that He has fulfilled the Law and Prophets and it is time to move on in the direction He is pointing.

Maintaining Jewish customs is not “going back.” After all, God gave the Torah to Israel. Celebrating Passover or the Jewish feasts is not just a pointer to Christ, it is also a celebration of very real events that God has accomplished through salvation history.

Insisting on denying and abrogating the validity (and necessity!) of the restoration of a Jewish Church is a sure way to keep the Jews out of it for another few centuries. Hopefully we can come to a deeper and more humble appreciate of their heritage which is also our own.

Serioulsy, how can there be a “Jewish Church” if Christ formed His Church, the Catholic Church, on Peter? Christ gave to Peter the Keys and the authority to make whateve changes he chose. Looking at the history of the Catholic Church, Peter, and his successors, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did not develop a “Jewish Chruch” that is Catholic At least, that is the way I see it.

Ariel
God bless
 
Tom,

I find your position incredibly insensitive. I would take too long to explain what I mean in detail here, so just to illustrate:

Imagine some Italian Catholic would come to you and start insisting that because you are Catholic you have to completely cease being American. Stop eating American food, stop speaking English, stop enjoying American culture, stop celebrating American holidays, stop watching American sports, stop doing everything that is American, because after all, you are Catholic now. Or, to use your own example, what if Americans would greet Irish immigrants with a contempt for all Irish culture and an exhortation to abandon it all as soon as possible?

You would rightly think that such a demand is ludicrous and arrogant, to say the least.

Well this is exactly what you are doing with your position regarding Jews. You may choose yourself to forsake your own cultural heritage, but who are you to impose this on others?

Judaism is not just a “religion of the past” that only prepared the way to Christ. Israel is God’s chosen people, set apart for to be God’s witness until the end of history (cf. Jer. 33:25-26, Rom 11), with a very rich and beautiful culture and heritage - much of it that was directly given to them by God.

It is well known that the fact that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit refers to matters of faith and doctrine, not to the way people (including popes and bishops) have always behaved. Anyone who looks at Church history can see that something went seriously wrong in how the Church related to the Jewish people. I would suggest you read some of the latest magisterial documents on this topic. You espouse a kind of supersessionism (replacement theology) that is totally disrespectful to Catholics who come from a Jewish background.

The fact that the New Covenant has brought unity between Jews and Gentiles does not mean that this has abolished all distinction and particular callings between them. If this were true then the New Covenant has also obliterated all distinction between male and female (cf. Gal 3:28). This is obviously nonsense. Christ has come to restore unity in charity between Jews and Gentiles (and equality regarding salvation), but just as there remains specific and diverse callings between men and women, so there can very well remain distinct callings between Jews and Gentiles.

I highly recommend that you read more from the websites:
www.hebrewcatholic.org
www.israelcatholic.com
www.salvationisfromthejews.com

Ariel
 
A Jew is somebody who is ‘Halachically’ Jewish.
When were this specific Halacha formulated? Years before the Pentecost of 30 AD (or CE), the same year, or some time after?
Weren’t the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth considered as Jews in his days? When did the Jewish authorities stop considering them as Jews?
 
When were this specific Halacha formulated? Years before the Pentecost of 30 AD (or CE), the same year, or some time after?
Weren’t the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth considered as Jews in his days? When did the Jewish authorities stop considering them as Jews?
You’re going to miss Ben, aren’t you?
 
I can’t say I enjoyed everything he said, you must have seen it, obviously. But even in the heat I think I respected him as an individual should be. Maybe you’re right. I probably WILL miss HIM. (Not necessarily his tone and arguments, though!)
 
When was this specific Halacha formulated? Years before the Pentecost of 30 AD (or CE), the same year, or some time after?
Weren’t the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth considered as Jews in his days? When did the Jewish authorities stop considering them as Jews?
Now, revenons a nos moutons… can you answer this? Or can someone else?
 
I wish him well, madame, not bad things. You followed our exchange of posts, then?
No, I didn’t follow them - sometimes I’d ‘tune in’ but all that ‘lit crit’ he liked sounded far too much like English Literature class for me.

What I meant was that the only Jews you’re left with are ones who are not terribly interested in arguing about these sorts of subjects.
 
Hi, Ariel,

Well, if you can overlook my incredible insensitivity… shall we continue?

I gues I am getting lost in the theory of what it is that you are really doing. Are we talking about people who see the Pope as the head of the Church founded by Christ, believe in the seven sacraments and go to Mass? Or, are we talking about some other arrangement?

Thanks for the links.

God bless

Tom
Tom,

I find your position incredibly insensitive. I would take too long to explain what I mean in detail here, so just to illustrate:

Imagine some Italian Catholic would come to you and start insisting that because you are Catholic you have to completely cease being American. Stop eating American food, stop speaking English, stop enjoying American culture, stop celebrating American holidays, stop watching American sports, stop doing everything that is American, because after all, you are Catholic now. Or, to use your own example, what if Americans would greet Irish immigrants with a contempt for all Irish culture and an exhortation to abandon it all as soon as possible?

You would rightly think that such a demand is ludicrous and arrogant, to say the least.

Well this is exactly what you are doing with your position regarding Jews. You may choose yourself to forsake your own cultural heritage, but who are you to impose this on others?

Judaism is not just a “religion of the past” that only prepared the way to Christ. Israel is God’s chosen people, set apart for to be God’s witness until the end of history (cf. Jer. 33:25-26, Rom 11), with a very rich and beautiful culture and heritage - much of it that was directly given to them by God.

It is well known that the fact that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit refers to matters of faith and doctrine, not to the way people (including popes and bishops) have always behaved. Anyone who looks at Church history can see that something went seriously wrong in how the Church related to the Jewish people. I would suggest you read some of the latest magisterial documents on this topic. You espouse a kind of supersessionism (replacement theology) that is totally disrespectful to Catholics who come from a Jewish background.

The fact that the New Covenant has brought unity between Jews and Gentiles does not mean that this has abolished all distinction and particular callings between them. If this were true then the New Covenant has also obliterated all distinction between male and female (cf. Gal 3:28). This is obviously nonsense. Christ has come to restore unity in charity between Jews and Gentiles (and equality regarding salvation), but just as there remains specific and diverse callings between men and women, so there can very well remain distinct callings between Jews and Gentiles.

I highly recommend that you read more from the websites:
www.hebrewcatholic.org
www.israelcatholic.com
www.salvationisfromthejews.com

Ariel
 
No, I didn’t follow them - sometimes I’d ‘tune in’ but all that ‘lit crit’ he liked sounded far too much like English Literature class for me.

What I meant was that the only Jews you’re left with are ones who are not terribly interested in arguing about these sorts of subjects.
Don’t you worry, I suppose I would have stayed away from it myself under normal circumstances.
 
Tqualey,

I have been trying to reserve a Sunday to listen to the audio tapes with HebrewCatholic. They are using their old calendar, share alot of customs, also get into some hermeneutics in now identifying passages from OT to now being fulfilled in the Catholic Church.

They also admit they laugh at us at Mass with the Jewish nuances that come through the Gospels…Jewish culture and attitude that go over our head. We are not Jewish. They are, and so their insight into the Bible and how they are drawing on OT to see its fulfillment in the Church is very educational and rich. They are giving me new life to my Gentile perspective, especially after the hell we have gone through being American Catholics.

Women are making prayer shawls…there could come a day when Gentile women want to attend Mass with shawls…I have a shawl mantilla I would like to wear to Mass but we are not there as a culture. I was wanting to start a Havurot in my diocese, but nobody is interested and priests say it is not the right time.
 
Tqualey,

I have been trying to reserve a Sunday to listen to the audio tapes with HebrewCatholic. They are using their old calendar, share alot of customs, also get into some hermeneutics in now identifying passages from OT to now being fulfilled in the Catholic Church.

They also admit they laugh at us at Mass with the Jewish nuances that come through the Gospels…Jewish culture and attitude that go over our head. We are not Jewish. They are, and so their insight into the Bible and how they are drawing on OT to see its fulfillment in the Church is very educational and rich. They are giving me new life to my Gentile perspective, especially after the hell we have gone through being American Catholics.

Women are making prayer shawls…there could come a day when Gentile women want to attend Mass with shawls…I have a shawl mantilla I would like to wear to Mass but we are not there as a culture. I was wanting to start a Havurot in my diocese, but nobody is interested and priests say it is not the right time.
“Havurot” is plural. The singular word for it is “havurah”.
You still can have people pray, there might also be misunderstandings about the “Hebrew Catholics”. They certainly can help us realize where many things in our Catholic Church come from in Judaism. For instance, the priest’s vestments that we used to see them wear before the days of the Vatican Council… I love the connection people like Martin Barrack and Bob Fishman make in these respects.
 
It doesn’t mean that we have to accept just EVERYTHING one can say if it seems quite far-fetched… but as to the continuity between the Jewish faith and our Catholic faith, this certainly is one thing we Catholics should be made more aware of, for the continuity IS there…
 
Thanks for showing me plural from singular. I composed a format with someone from Hebrew Catholic to make sure it would not cause the wrong reaction, but in this diocese, such relations are reserved for those people direct from administration.

But I have my own communication about religion with my Jewish brethren and we have no problems sharing. Actually, we share with much affection and grace.

Yes, I would love to have a prayer fellowship. It must first be directed to the Gentiles and let word get out. It is hoped in time that Hebrew Catholics would finally be able to join. Some are afraid. I also came into contact with the Murranos…Spanish Jews who hid their identity while outwardly being Catholic. The contact panicked and then I lost track of them.
 
Hi, Kathleen,

Forgive my lack of sophistication in this area, but would you kindly reduce to a few simple sentences under what conditions or from what view are Hebrew Cathoics different from Cathoics of the Roman Rite?

For example: Do Hebrew Catholics

1.) Accept Pope Benedict XVI as the Vicar of Christ and leader of the True Church?

2.) Use a rabbi for any religious service or activity>

Thanks.

God bless
Thanks for showing me plural from singular. I composed a format with someone from Hebrew Catholic to make sure it would not cause the wrong reaction, but in this diocese, such relations are reserved for those people direct from administration.

But I have my own communication about religion with my Jewish brethren and we have no problems sharing. Actually, we share with much affection and grace.

Yes, I would love to have a prayer fellowship. It must first be directed to the Gentiles and let word get out. It is hoped in time that Hebrew Catholics would finally be able to join. Some are afraid. I also came into contact with the Murranos…Spanish Jews who hid their identity while outwardly being Catholic. The contact panicked and then I lost track of them.
 
Hi, Kathleen,

Forgive my lack of sophistication in this area, but would you kindly reduce to a few simple sentences under what conditions or from what view are Hebrew Cathoics different from Catholics of the Roman Rite?

For example: Do Hebrew Catholics

1.) Accept Pope Benedict XVI as the Vicar of Christ and leader of the True Church?

2.) Use a rabbi for any religious service or activity>

Thanks.

God bless
Though I am not a Hebrew Catholic myself, I remember David Moss saying that the Hebrew Catholics DO accept the pope as the Vicar of Christ and leader of the True Church.
Since being a Hebrew Catholic creates a big separation from Judaism in the eyes of the Jews, I would doubt very much that a rabbi would accept to guide them when they want to live as Catholics!! (Unless the rabbi would have become a Catholic himself, but then he can’t stay a Jewish rabbi serving the Jews as such! It would be outrageous in the eyes of the Jews, from what I understand.)
 
Hi, Lapell,

I don’t want to sound silly, but, the entire concept seems outrageous to me. My reference is the Council of Jerusalem where the Judiazers were corrected. This is not to say that Christianity did not have its origin in the Jewish Faith - only that Christ has fulfilled the Law and has placed us in a new relationship with the Father.

Yearning for our Hebrew origins sounds like a previous yearing - and - this was for the ‘…onions of Egypt…’ (Numbers 11:5)
Though I am not a Hebrew Catholic myself, I remember David Moss saying that the Hebrew Catholics DO accept the pope as the Vicar of Christ and leader of the True Church.
Since being a Hebrew Catholic creates a big separation from Judaism in the eyes of the Jews, I would doubt very much that a rabbi would accept to guide them when they want to live as Catholics!! (Unless the rabbi would have become a Catholic himself, but then he can’t stay a Jewish rabbi serving the Jews as such! It would be outrageous in the eyes of the Jews, from what I understand.)
God bless
 
does any one know if messianics have a take on end times? and if so what it is?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top