Met. Athanasios of Lemesou (Cyprus) Speaks Against Pope's Visit

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The following are excerpts from an interview with the (Orthodox) Bishop of Limassol, Cyprus.
“For us Orthodox, the Pope is a heretic, outside of the Church, and, hence, not even a bishop”.
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“Dialogue is not a bad thing when it is carried out based on correct presuppositions. However, it is wrong to say to these people that we recognize them as a Church, that we recognize the Pope as a Bishop, as our brother in Christ in the priesthood and in [the] faith. I cannot accept this, because we are lying [when we say this], since all of the Holy Fathers teach exactly the opposite. Papism is a heresy and the source of many other heresies which trouble the entire world today. A contemporary Saint of the Church, Saint Justin Popovich, said that in the history of the human race there have been three tragic falls: of the first-formed Adam, of the disciple of Christ, Judas, and of the Pope, who, when he was the first Bishop of the Church, fell from the apostolic faith, was cut off from the canonical Church and lured away a host of people with him until today.”
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I am more than disappointed that a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church of Cyprus would be so negative. He has said he will not attend the ecumenical gathering that his archbishop wants them all to attend. Comparing the Pope with Judas?! 😦 Bishop Athanasios seems to be trying to poison the atmosphere for the Pope’s visit.

Catholics recognize Orthodox as Christians, even letting them receive Holy Communion; Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens and the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have both visited Pope Benedict at the Vatican. I doubt that Catholic bishops spoke about their visits in such a hostile way (but I don’t really know).

I wish for all the Christians to be united, be the prospect seems far off.
 
You know what though? What he’s saying is quite simply the historic Orthodox position on Roman Catholicism. He’s just being more blunt than we’re used to in our ‘nicified’ western society.

I actually prefer it when people say what they mean instead of masking it behind diplomatic dishonesty. Because when you burrow through the civility, an awful lot of the Eastern Orthdox believe exactly the same thing.

At least with him, you know where you stand and know what must be prayed for.
 
GraceSofia said:
impantokratoros.gr/visit_pope-cyprus.en.aspx

The following are excerpts from an interview with the (Orthodox) Bishop of Limassol, Cyprus.

I am more than disappointed that a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church of Cyprus would be so negative. He has said he will not attend the ecumenical gathering that his archbishop wants them all to attend. Comparing the Pope with Judas?! 😦 Bishop Athanasios seems to be trying to poison the atmosphere for the Pope’s visit.

Catholics recognize Orthodox as Christians, even letting them receive Holy Communion; Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens and the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have both visited Pope Benedict at the Vatican. I doubt that Catholic bishops spoke about their visits in such a hostile way (but I don’t really know).

I wish for all the Christians to be united, be the prospect seems far off.
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the last popes have called everybody Christians and called them all brothers and sisters to the point of becoming just like them. the clergy dresses just like lutherans. it is hard to identify who are the Catholics and who are the lutherans clergy. the Mass has become more like the lutherans services. perhaps this Patriarch is afraid that his Faith would be contaminated by protestantism. lately, the word Catholic is barely used. the word used is Christians, as if Catholicism was a word of the past. i wouldnt doubt that this is the next thing in the Catholic Church to be out the window, just like so much of our Faith is gone.
 
wisdomseeker said:
the last popes have called everybody Christians and called them all brothers and sisters to the point of becoming just like them. the clergy dresses just like lutherans. it is hard to identify who are the Catholics and who are the lutherans clergy. the Mass has become more like the lutherans services. perhaps this Patriarch is afraid that his Faith would be contaminated by protestantism. lately, the word Catholic is barely used. the word used is Christians, as if Catholicism was a word of the past. i wouldnt doubt that this is the next thing in the Catholic Church to be out the window, just like so much of our Faith is gone.
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What relevance does your comparison with Lutherans have in the topic at hand?
 
wisdomseeker said:
the last popes have called everybody Christians and called them all brothers and sisters to the point of becoming just like them. the clergy dresses just like lutherans. it is hard to identify who are the Catholics and who are the lutherans clergy. the Mass has become more like the lutherans services. perhaps this Patriarch is afraid that his Faith would be contaminated by protestantism. lately, the word Catholic is barely used. the word used is Christians, as if Catholicism was a word of the past. i wouldnt doubt that this is the next thing in the Catholic Church to be out the window, just like so much of our Faith is gone.
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Wisdomseeker,
Do you mind telling what OHCAC stands for? I’m just wondering.

Well, MY priests are Franciscans with brown habits so they sure don’t look like Lutheran clergy. 🙂 But I’m not sure what you are saying-- other types of Catholic priests have changed the way they dress since… when?

This bishop in Cyprus (he isn’t the Patriarch) probably considers that what Catholics consider protestantism was an offshoot of Catholicism. Okay, that is his opinion.
But my opinion is that when the Pope comes to your country, you don’t get all hostile.
When Orthodox clergy visit Italy or the US or wherever, we don’t have Catholics in the newspapers spouting off divisive comments and calling everybody heretics. What is gained? You can be sure that this story will be reprinted across the Muslim world; they love having one Christian leader calling another one names. There is a proper place and time for discussing differences. There is also a need for Christian brotherly love.

What do you mean the word Catholic is barely used? If you mean by Orthodox, yes, they often refuse to call Catholics Catholics because even in modern Greek, Catholic means universal – and they think they are the universal church-- so they often prefer to use “papismos” which is also derogatory.

I see the word “Catholic” used plenty by Catholics. But Catholics are the original Christians, so I don’t have a problem with that.
 
I agree with manualman. Although I would love to see the Churches unite, I think what the bishop said is good in that it is the perspective of the Orthodox Church. You might not see someone like Patriarch Bartholomew say it, but it is the general view of the Orthodox. They have a Cyprianic view of the sacraments, which means that seperation from the Church is also seperation from the sacraments. The sacraments are acts of the Church, and those outside the Church do not have the sacraments. The most they will say is that ‘we know where Grace is but we don’t know where it isn’t’ meaning that the Church has the sacraments but whether non-Orthodox sacraments are valid is a mystery.

Whether Rome has allowed Orthodox to recieve communion is irrelevant. That is Romes choice, and it can’t be forced on the Orthodox Churches. You can’t expect them to give communion to those who they believe to be heretics.
 
GraceSofia said:
This bishop in Cyprus (he isn’t the Patriarch) probably considers that what Catholics consider protestantism was an offshoot of Catholicism. Okay, that is his opinion.
But my opinion is that when the Pope comes to your country, you don’t get all hostile.
When Orthodox clergy visit Italy or the US or wherever, we don’t have Catholics in the newspapers spouting off divisive comments and calling everybody heretics. What is gained? You can be sure that this story will be reprinted across the Muslim world; they love having one Christian leader calling another one names. There is a proper place and time for discussing differences. There is also a need for Christian brotherly love.
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The only difference is that the Roman Church uses official documents to point out that the Orthodox Church is insufficient. This situation offered a chance for the bishop to reiterate the Orthodox perspective on the Church of Rome.
 
jimmy said:
Whether Rome has allowed Orthodox to recieve communion is irrelevant. That is Romes choice, and it can’t be forced on the Orthodox Churches. You can’t expect them to give communion to those who they believe to be heretics.
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Shouldn’t it be reciprocal? Are Catholics being more charitable? It is sort of confusing.
 
jimmy said:
The only difference is that the Roman Church uses official documents to point out that the Orthodox Church is insufficient. This situation offered a chance for the bishop to reiterate the Orthodox perspective on the Church of Rome.
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I think this was the wrong time to do it. The Pope was already invited, etc. It just stirs people up and creates hostility between Christians. There are other times and places.

Today’s news is that up to 5 Orthodox bishops are saying they will not attend. You don’t invite someone to your country and then snub him publicly. It is also a snub to all the Latin and Maronite Catholics in the country. The Orthodox Archbishop has told them to keep quiet. I am not sure whether the Orthodox bishops are supposed to be obedient to their archbishop.

The leader of Cyprus’s ancient Orthodox Church lashed out on Tuesday at criticism of Pope Benedict’s upcoming visit to the island on June 4-6.
 
GraceSofia said:
Wisdomseeker,
Do you mind telling what OHCAC stands for? I’m just wondering.

Well, MY priests are Franciscans with brown habits so they sure don’t look like Lutheran clergy. 🙂 But I’m not sure what you are saying-- other types of Catholic priests have changed the way they dress since… when?

This bishop in Cyprus (he isn’t the Patriarch) probably considers that what Catholics consider protestantism was an offshoot of Catholicism. Okay, that is his opinion.
But my opinion is that when the Pope comes to your country, you don’t get all hostile.
When Orthodox clergy visit Italy or the US or wherever, we don’t have Catholics in the newspapers spouting off divisive comments and calling everybody heretics. What is gained? You can be sure that this story will be reprinted across the Muslim world; they love having one Christian leader calling another one names. There is a proper place and time for discussing differences. There is also a need for Christian brotherly love.

What do you mean the word Catholic is barely used? If you mean by Orthodox, yes, they often refuse to call Catholics Catholics because even in modern Greek, Catholic means universal – and they think they are the universal church-- so they often prefer to use “papismos” which is also derogatory.

I see the word “Catholic” used plenty by Catholics. But Catholics are the original Christians, so I don’t have a problem with that.
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One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
 
GraceSofia said:
impantokratoros.gr/visit_pope-cyprus.en.aspx

The following are excerpts from an interview with the (Orthodox) Bishop of Limassol, Cyprus.

I am more than disappointed that a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church of Cyprus would be so negative. He has said he will not attend the ecumenical gathering that his archbishop wants them all to attend. Comparing the Pope with Judas?! 😦 Bishop Athanasios seems to be trying to poison the atmosphere for the Pope’s visit.

Catholics recognize Orthodox as Christians, even letting them receive Holy Communion; Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens and the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have both visited Pope Benedict at the Vatican. I doubt that Catholic bishops spoke about their visits in such a hostile way (but I don’t really know).

I wish for all the Christians to be united, be the prospect seems far off.
Click to expand...
It’s quite a complicated subject with most Orthodox taking the position expressed by St Cyprian and reflected in the quotes you cite. Catholics tend to take the position posited by St Augustine. Into all of this the orthodox concept of economy intrudes. Not to mention historical problems, prejudices and ethnic hatreds - all rolled into a nice knotty bundle.

There is plenty of fodder in the various canons concerning prayer with non-Christians throughout time to support the Bishop. Likewise there is plenty of ambiguity.

Interestingly some time back a meeting of the Orthodox and Catholics broke up over the issue that, consistent with the Cyprian position, the Orthodox participants were not sure whether Catholic baptisms are valid.

Time and the Holy Spirit will have to work this one out. In any event, we are not as close to reunion as some seem to think.
 
GraceSofia said:
Shouldn’t it be reciprocal? Are Catholics being more charitable? It is sort of confusing.
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If the Anglican bishops said tomorrow, “All Catholics are permited to recieve the Eucharist in an Anglican Church, and we permit Anglicans to recieve in Catholic Churches.” Should Catholics automatically reciprocate? I would answer no. We believe that they are heretical in their teachings. Similarly the Orthodox view us as heretics.
 
johnnykins said:
It’s quite a complicated subject with most Orthodox taking the position expressed by St Cyprian and reflected in the quotes you cite. Catholics tend to take the position posited by St Augustine. Into all of this the orthodox concept of economy intrudes. Not to mention historical problems, prejudices and ethnic hatreds - all rolled into a nice knotty bundle.

There is plenty of fodder in the various canons concerning prayer with non-Christians throughout time to support the Bishop. Likewise there is plenty of ambiguity.

Interestingly some time back a meeting of the Orthodox and Catholics broke up over the issue that, consistent with the Cyprian position, the Orthodox participants were not sure whether Catholic baptisms are valid.

Time and the Holy Spirit will have to work this one out. In any event, we are not as close to reunion as some seem to think.
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What do you mean by the orthodox concept of economy? Just in general and briefly, if you don’t mind. Well, I live here and I can tell you the prejudice and hatred is alive and well, although I don’t know much about theology, and I don’t think unity is very close. Although the Archbishop Chrysostomos seems to be wanting to at least have a united front to face Islam and secularism. The thing with Bishop Athanasios might have to do with a power play amongst the Orthodox hierarchy. Might. Just sayin’.
 
Cyprus to welcome Pope? (my underlining)

‘The Holy Synod has decided and decisions by the Synod are obligatory. The Church is just but strict; whoever doesn’t like it can stay in their own home. That’s my opinion.’ Archbishop Chrysostomos II criticised one of his own, influential Limassol Bishop Athanasios, for publicly opposing the papal visit.

Members of two religious groups have already called on the attorney general to arrest the pope as soon as he sets foot in Cyprus for his alleged ‘cover-up’ of paedophile crime by Catholic priests. And there are unconfirmed reports that people incensed over the paedophilia scandal will demonstrate against the pontiff.

Last week the synod issued a circular that was read out in churches across the island assuring the faithful that the pope’s visit would not compromise Orthodoxy and calling for calm.
 
The Maronite Church in Cyprus seems to be welcome the pope.
For Cyprus’ Maronites, followers of one of the oldest Catholic faiths, the best news of late has been the announcement that Pope Benedict XVI is coming to Cyprus next week — the first pontiff to visit the island.
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Kormakitis is one of four northern villages that were once the center of Cyprus’ Maronite population. Then, in 1974, came a coup, a war and a fence that split the Mediterranean island into a Turkish Cypriot north and a Greek Cypriot south.
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google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5idBcNIxIn41fKzi_lHjzer6TUSuQD9FSGGV80
 
Yes, they are Catholic so they are very happy the Pope is coming. There are Maronite Catholics and Latin Catholics in Cyprus.
 
GraceSofia said:
What do you mean by the orthodox concept of economy? Just in general and briefly, if you don’t mind. Well, I live here and I can tell you the prejudice and hatred is alive and well, although I don’t know much about theology, and I don’t think unity is very close. Although the Archbishop Chrysostomos seems to be wanting to at least have a united front to face Islam and secularism. The thing with Bishop Athanasios might have to do with a power play amongst the Orthodox hierarchy. Might. Just sayin’.
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Wiki does a reasonable job explaining it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_%28Eastern_Christianity%29

And, yes, don’t want to forget politics an any such situation! 🙂
 
johnnykins said:
Wiki does a reasonable job explaining it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_%28Eastern_Christianity%29
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This is from that article. Do I understand that it says they accepted converts and did not baptize them? That can’t be right.

“In Orthodox Church history, examples and instances of economy abound. Since ancient times, converts to the Church who were coming from certain heretical groups were not required to be baptized, even though the normal path of entrance to the Church was through baptism. Thus the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, decided that under specific conditions, the application of economy (i.e. according to leniency) would be the norm in this matter. But since the usual rule is baptism, such leniency can easily be, and sometimes has been, suspended (usually in periods when the heretical groups in question were actively opposing the Church). In these cases, the Church returned to her customary usual rule of “exactness,” not applying economy (or not applying economy according to lenience). In calling for the reception of converts into Orthodoxy through means other than baptism in certain cases, the Ecumenical Councils made no determination regarding the existence of sacraments outside of Orthodoxy, but only addressed the situation of the convert to Orthodoxy.”
 
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