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benidict
Guest
hi answerplease. my apologies. i did not realize up to this time, that you were a former Mormon. now i get it.
i do understand where you are coming from now. Peace to you and yours. and i do find your threads intrigueing. you have an insight, that many of us lack reguarding this group. Peace to you and yours.
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Answersplease
Guest
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benidict
Guest
ah
my mistake. peace
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Answersplease
Guest
Peace to you and yours. and i do find your threads intrigueing. you have an insight, that many of us lack reguarding this group. Peace to you and yours.
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SirThomasMore
Guest
Intersting points…
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lax16
Guest
This is why I asked on another thread if there was any record of the BoM people trading with any other groups to obtain items such as these.
If they couldn’t/didn’t make these items, then they would have obtained them through trade, right?
If so, who did they trade with?
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Kdesiel
Guest
I think the easy answer is J.Smith didn’t fully understand all that goes into Meallurgy, he didn’t have a clear understanding of the Science behind it.
If they did have such technology how come none of it or evidence of it has been found? In the BoM it Describes Huge battle with “Numberless” casualties. Surely with weapons, and armor made of Iron or Steel there would be some sort of evidence, right?
Lets not forget the tools. The BoM describes huge cities. The construction of these cities would require tools. If the technology were available where is the evidence of the tools needed to construct such cities?
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lax16
Guest
Also, it would require mining.
Book of Mormon
**Ether 15:2 ** He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly **two millions **of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.
How many **men **would it take to kill two million men plus their wives and children?
How many swords would it take to kill two million men plus their wives and children?
How long would it take to make swords for that many men in combat?
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Kdesiel
Guest
I’ll have to go back and read that part of Ether I didn’t know it gave such a specific number.
I didn’t even think of mining…Good Point!
Exactly, How many Men would you have to have to 1. Kill Two Million Other Men. @. Destroy an entire Civilization as it describes at the end of the BoM.
The final battle at the Hill Cumorah where the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites…
I don’t think it is too much to ask for some physical evidence to support certain claims.
Millions of Solders being killed is a big deal and would leave a big historical footprint.
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lax16
Guest
interesting info from pbs Guns, Germs, and Steel (edited for length)
The Story Of… Steel
Humans’ ability to transform mineral ores into useful materials has shaped the course of human history. Those civilizations that have been armed with a greater range of metal technologies have always defeated their rivals.
Early metal work fuels the development of steel
Steel is an almost uniquely European technology. It would not have been possible without the earliest experiments with fire and minerals, conducted by Neolithic hunters and farmers over ten thousand years ago. Thanks to the dry environment of the Fertile Crescent, fire pits could be kept ablaze for several days, raising a temperature sufficient to transform limestone into plaster. Before long, this technology was applied to other mineral ores — copper technology brought forth the Bronze Age and iron technology the Iron Age. Once iron ore had been smelted, steel was only a matter of time.
The** right conditions **alone were not enough — budding ironmongers and steel-smiths also needed the right raw materials. Europe struck lucky. **Steel’s complex manufacture requires large quantities of iron ore and plentiful, carbon-rich forests, plus **access to fast-flowing water for power and transport. All of which were readily available in Europe.
The Conquistadors won an easy Victory against **inferior Inca **weapons technology
**Civilizations in the Americas lacked equivalent iron resources **— but were rich beyond imagination in copper, tin, and precious metals like silver and gold. This, after all, had been the incentive for European exploration — the search for Eldorado, the quest to seize a paradise made of gold. The invaders were not disappointed. Gold was so common in the land of the Incas, it was used purely for decoration and bore no inherent monetary value. Protected solely by bronze weapons and knives carved from stone, the Inca Empire fell easily to deadly Spanish steel.
The Story Of… Steel
Humans’ ability to transform mineral ores into useful materials has shaped the course of human history. Those civilizations that have been armed with a greater range of metal technologies have always defeated their rivals.
Early metal work fuels the development of steel
Steel is an almost uniquely European technology. It would not have been possible without the earliest experiments with fire and minerals, conducted by Neolithic hunters and farmers over ten thousand years ago. Thanks to the dry environment of the Fertile Crescent, fire pits could be kept ablaze for several days, raising a temperature sufficient to transform limestone into plaster. Before long, this technology was applied to other mineral ores — copper technology brought forth the Bronze Age and iron technology the Iron Age. Once iron ore had been smelted, steel was only a matter of time.
The** right conditions **alone were not enough — budding ironmongers and steel-smiths also needed the right raw materials. Europe struck lucky. **Steel’s complex manufacture requires large quantities of iron ore and plentiful, carbon-rich forests, plus **access to fast-flowing water for power and transport. All of which were readily available in Europe.
The Conquistadors won an easy Victory against **inferior Inca **weapons technology
**Civilizations in the Americas lacked equivalent iron resources **— but were rich beyond imagination in copper, tin, and precious metals like silver and gold. This, after all, had been the incentive for European exploration — the search for Eldorado, the quest to seize a paradise made of gold. The invaders were not disappointed. Gold was so common in the land of the Incas, it was used purely for decoration and bore no inherent monetary value. Protected solely by bronze weapons and knives carved from stone, the Inca Empire fell easily to deadly Spanish steel.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Just as a side note, killing millions of people would result in millions of dead bodies. Whether or not they were buried, these dead bodies would eventually leave traces in the form of bones, which far outlast soft tissue. If there was a battle where millions were killed, there should be a battlefield where those bodies/bones are. But there isn’t any evidence of that. (Perhaps someone might want to add “so far” to that sentence
)In addition, if history is any guide, for the victors of the battle that killed millions, there would no doubt be a legacy of stories attesting to the bravery of their soldiers who defeated such a massive enemy and totally wiped them out. But no such stories exist.
Just as an analogy, a lot of sci-fi stuff doesn’t make a whole lot of sense on a scientific basis, so you have to suspend that part of your brain that understands how things really work to accept many sci-fi stories. Similarly, Book of Mormon stories require a similar suspension of understanding on a number of levels. The Book of Mormon stories have been proven false, not shown to be questionable, but instead shown to be demonstrably false, in a variety of areas. You can still choose to believe that the Book of Mormon is “true” but to do so you have to set aside many rational and factual things.
Here’s the thing. In order to believe a whole lot of Mormonism, you have to accept that many things were “destroyed” and whole peoples were “wiped out”. When asking for proof of the so-called “apostasy” I’ve had Mormons tell me that the reason that there is no evidence is because the Roman Empire and/or the Catholic Church (or perhaps some combo of the 2? I seldom get much in the way of anything definitive) destroyed all the evidence. Similarly, when we question the veracity of the Book of Mormon stories, we’re told that everyone was “wiped out” at the end, which is why they left no descendants.
Total and utter destruction, to the point of wiping out all evidence on the face of the earth of ANYTHING requires a lot of time and effort. Think “house to house search”. People that believe their treasures (whatever they may designate as a treasure) may be under attack take the protective step to hide them. As word gets out that someone is searching for them, evidence that they even exist dries up, but the secreted treasure remains, hidden somewhere deemed to be “safe”.
Yet today, there is no evidence of such things to support the idea that Early Christianity was identical to present-day Mormonism, which is what the Mormon idea of “Restoration” would require. It is preposterous to suggest, as some have, that Early Christianity existed in the form presently known as Mormonism, but, due to apostasy, it was replaced by other practices, and there is no evidence whatsoever to support this theory, while there is ample evidence to support another view.
Similarly, if ALL the Book of Mormon people were wiped out, as many have alleged, then where is the evidence? Where are the victory stories of their neighbors that wiped them out? Where are the bones? The bones of millions of people are not exactly easy to hide, so where are they?
Unless of course, the whole thing is a fabrication of one or more rather imaginative 19th Century individuals.
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lax16
Guest
MelanieAnne - I was told by a missionary when I asked where the all the proof was, that God is testing us. I asked him if God would actually “trick” us and he smiled and said very enthusiastically, Yes!"Just as a side note, killing millions of people would result in millions of dead bodies. Whether or not they were buried, these dead bodies would eventually leave traces in the form of bones, which far outlast soft tissue. If there was a battle where millions were killed, there should be a battlefield where those bodies/bones are. But there isn’t any evidence of that. (Perhaps someone might want to add “so far” to that sentence
In addition, if history is any guide, for the victors of the battle that killed millions, there would no doubt be a legacy of stories attesting to the bravery of their soldiers who defeated such a massive enemy and totally wiped them out. But no such stories exist.
Just as an analogy, a lot of sci-fi stuff doesn’t make a whole lot of sense on a scientific basis, so you have to suspend that part of your brain that understands how things really work to accept many sci-fi stories. Similarly, Book of Mormon stories require a similar suspension of understanding on a number of levels. The Book of Mormon stories have been proven false, not shown to be questionable, but instead shown to be demonstrably false, in a variety of areas. You can still choose to believe that the Book of Mormon is “true” but to do so you have to set aside many rational and factual things.
Here’s the thing. In order to believe a whole lot of Mormonism, you have to accept that many things were “destroyed” and whole peoples were “wiped out”. When asking for proof of the so-called “apostasy” I’ve had Mormons tell me that the reason that there is no evidence is because the Roman Empire and/or the Catholic Church (or perhaps some combo of the 2? I seldom get much in the way of anything definitive) destroyed all the evidence. Similarly, when we question the veracity of the Book of Mormon stories, we’re told that everyone was “wiped out” at the end, which is why they left no descendants.
Total and utter destruction, to the point of wiping out all evidence on the face of the earth of ANYTHING requires a lot of time and effort. Think “house to house search”. People that believe their treasures (whatever they may designate as a treasure) may be under attack take the protective step to hide them. As word gets out that someone is searching for them, evidence that they even exist dries up, but the secreted treasure remains, hidden somewhere deemed to be “safe”.
Yet today, there is no evidence of such things to support the idea that Early Christianity was identical to present-day Mormonism, which is what the Mormon idea of “Restoration” would require. It is preposterous to suggest, as some have, that Early Christianity existed in the form presently known as Mormonism, but, due to apostasy, it was replaced by other practices, and there is no evidence whatsoever to support this theory, while there is ample evidence to support another view.
Similarly, if ALL the Book of Mormon people were wiped out, as many have alleged, then where is the evidence? Where are the victory stories of their neighbors that wiped them out? Where are the bones? The bones of millions of people are not exactly easy to hide, so where are they?
Unless of course, the whole thing is a fabrication of one or more rather imaginative 19th Century individuals.
Didn’t the Muslims destroy many artifacts etc of Christianity? However, can anyone really destroy all remaining proof of a people that numbered in the millions?
Why? What would be their motivating force? How could they have the time and energy to do that when many people were just struggling to survive?
What tools/equipment did people have back then that would allow them to carry out such a huge excavating project? Then they had to carry out (using what method) the remains of people, buildings etc then put them where? How did they dispose of them?
Even if they used fire there would be evidence of fire.
It appears from the OP that the quote of the former mormon who is a metallurgist, that he had no reason to doubt the BoM because he had never heard/read anything to the contrary.
I like to read outside sources from credible researchers when discussing history, archaeology etc because it is important to cross-reference everything! No people in the history of the world ever lived in a vacuum.
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Kdesiel
Guest
If your Society or “Tribe” waged war against another “Tribe” and as a result wiped the other “Tribe” completely out, wouldn’t you keep a record of the victory…Yes! With the BoM you only have one point of view, only one side kept any record and it was the “Tribe” that lost.Just as a side note, killing millions of people would result in millions of dead bodies. Whether or not they were buried, these dead bodies would eventually leave traces in the form of bones, which far outlast soft tissue. If there was a battle where millions were killed, there should be a battlefield where those bodies/bones are. But there isn’t any evidence of that. (Perhaps someone might want to add “so far” to that sentence
In addition, if history is any guide, for the victors of the battle that killed millions, there would no doubt be a legacy of stories attesting to the bravery of their soldiers who defeated such a massive enemy and totally wiped them out. But no such stories exist.
Just as an analogy, a lot of sci-fi stuff doesn’t make a whole lot of sense on a scientific basis, so you have to suspend that part of your brain that understands how things really work to accept many sci-fi stories. Similarly, Book of Mormon stories require a similar suspension of understanding on a number of levels. The Book of Mormon stories have been proven false, not shown to be questionable, but instead shown to be demonstrably false, in a variety of areas. You can still choose to believe that the Book of Mormon is “true” but to do so you have to set aside many rational and factual things.
Here’s the thing. In order to believe a whole lot of Mormonism, you have to accept that many things were “destroyed” and whole peoples were “wiped out”. When asking for proof of the so-called “apostasy” I’ve had Mormons tell me that the reason that there is no evidence is because the Roman Empire and/or the Catholic Church (or perhaps some combo of the 2? I seldom get much in the way of anything definitive) destroyed all the evidence. Similarly, when we question the veracity of the Book of Mormon stories, we’re told that everyone was “wiped out” at the end, which is why they left no descendants.
Total and utter destruction, to the point of wiping out all evidence on the face of the earth of ANYTHING requires a lot of time and effort. Think “house to house search”. People that believe their treasures (whatever they may designate as a treasure) may be under attack take the protective step to hide them. As word gets out that someone is searching for them, evidence that they even exist dries up, but the secreted treasure remains, hidden somewhere deemed to be “safe”.
Yet today, there is no evidence of such things to support the idea that Early Christianity was identical to present-day Mormonism, which is what the Mormon idea of “Restoration” would require. It is preposterous to suggest, as some have, that Early Christianity existed in the form presently known as Mormonism, but, due to apostasy, it was replaced by other practices, and there is no evidence whatsoever to support this theory, while there is ample evidence to support another view.
Similarly, if ALL the Book of Mormon people were wiped out, as many have alleged, then where is the evidence? Where are the victory stories of their neighbors that wiped them out? Where are the bones? The bones of millions of people are not exactly easy to hide, so where are they?
Unless of course, the whole thing is a fabrication of one or more rather imaginative 19th Century individuals.
Now in order to Send Millions into Battle how many people must reside in your society? How many people did the Roman Empire subjugate at its peak? Now in that Peak how many of them served in the Military? How many members of the Military were actively serving in WWII as compared to the total populace?
I guess my point is the logistics of a Million man army. The man power to supply, the food necessary to feed, the equipment and yes when its all said and done the bones?
If Millions were slaughtered on one field of battle I don’t think the opposition would take the time to give them a proper burial, especially when their whole supposed goal was to wipe them from the face of the Earth.
It just doesn’t add up.
I like you analogy comparing Science Fiction and the Book of Mormon. I will say one thing. The Book of Mormon is a good story. It is intriguing, it is entertaining and it allows your imagination to think “What if” but in the end it is just a story.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
Diamond’s “geographic determinism” verges on racism–espeuially when he claims ingineous Indonesians are “smarter” than europeans, europeans got “lucky” from their continent, etc…
There was iron ore in the Americas–some of the richest deposits in the world. Africa has rich iron ore and seems to have independently developed steel technology. The Indians ( “native americans”) didnt because of cultural factors.
See Victor Hansen’s Culture and Carnage as an antitode to Diamond’s fallacies
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Kdesiel
Guest
Thanks for the info. I’m going to check it out.
The Book of Mormon descries the Nephite and Lamanite armies being equipped with Swords, Helmuts, Breastplates, spears and cemiters. If the technology for making steel were present in these societies then wouldn’t the technology still be present when the explorations from the “Old World” took place?
The lamanites are purportedly the ancestors of the Native Americans why didn’t they have steel weapons/tools when the Americas were discovered?
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lax16
Guest
Thanks for the reference, I will read Culture and Carnage when I get a chance.
Did you realize my post was edited? I hope that you were able to read the entire article. I am having trouble with the link for some reason, but I accessed it at guns, germs & steel: variables. steel.
Where does Diamond claim that Indegenous Indonesians are smarter than Europeans?
I have the book in front of me - if you have a page number let me know. Or was it mentioned on the website?
I was quoting the pbs info to show that many factors must be present to be able to produce steel swords.
thanks!
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why_me
Guest
Answers loves to post from antimormon sites. This is just one example. However, the mormons have answered the metallurgy debate:
fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf
Among the critics’ list of supposed Book of Mormon anachronisms are various metals and metallurgy (the process of altering ores into useful metals). These metals include brass, iron, and steel. This paper also discusses writings on metal plates and the possible composition of the Book of Mormon plates.
Metallurgy
For years the best evidence suggested that metallurgy was unknown in the Americas until about 900 A.D. Recent studies have altered this view. “Current information,” writes one non-LDS scholar, “clearly indicates that by 1000 B.C. the most advanced metallurgy was being practiced in the Cauca Valley of Colombia.”1 Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C. and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples, especially since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD. 2
The problem with ancient metal artifacts is that metal (left untreated or exposed to the elements) corrodes and deteriorates—especially in the humid and wet jungles of Mesoamerica. Language studies, however, help confirm that metallurgy was known anciently in the Americas. Non-Mormon scholars who have reconstructed parts of several ancient Mesoamerican languages were puzzled to find a word for “metal” existed as early as 1000 B.C. while the early language of the Olmecs had a word for metal as early as 1500 B.C.3
This is just an except from the article I linked.
fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf
Among the critics’ list of supposed Book of Mormon anachronisms are various metals and metallurgy (the process of altering ores into useful metals). These metals include brass, iron, and steel. This paper also discusses writings on metal plates and the possible composition of the Book of Mormon plates.
Metallurgy
For years the best evidence suggested that metallurgy was unknown in the Americas until about 900 A.D. Recent studies have altered this view. “Current information,” writes one non-LDS scholar, “clearly indicates that by 1000 B.C. the most advanced metallurgy was being practiced in the Cauca Valley of Colombia.”1 Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C. and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples, especially since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD. 2
The problem with ancient metal artifacts is that metal (left untreated or exposed to the elements) corrodes and deteriorates—especially in the humid and wet jungles of Mesoamerica. Language studies, however, help confirm that metallurgy was known anciently in the Americas. Non-Mormon scholars who have reconstructed parts of several ancient Mesoamerican languages were puzzled to find a word for “metal” existed as early as 1000 B.C. while the early language of the Olmecs had a word for metal as early as 1500 B.C.3
This is just an except from the article I linked.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
I recall it being in one of the first chapters of Germs–Hansen’s rejoiner was in his first chapter, if not his inroduction.
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why_me
Guest
And as far as steel is concerned:
Steel
The King James Bible often uses the word “steel” to refer to what we know today as bronze. Even experts have acknowledged a problem in terminology when discussing “steel” in antiquity. One early native chronicler, for example, wrote that the Tarascans (Mesoamerica’s most noted metallurgists at the time of the Spanish conquest) wore “steel” helmets.10 A type of “steel”—meteoric nickel-iron alloy—was available in Mesoamerica
fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf
Steel
The King James Bible often uses the word “steel” to refer to what we know today as bronze. Even experts have acknowledged a problem in terminology when discussing “steel” in antiquity. One early native chronicler, for example, wrote that the Tarascans (Mesoamerica’s most noted metallurgists at the time of the Spanish conquest) wore “steel” helmets.10 A type of “steel”—meteoric nickel-iron alloy—was available in Mesoamerica
fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf
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