"...metallurgy in the Book of Mormon..."

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And the gold plates:

The “Golden” Plates
According to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon was engraved on a stack of plates six inches wide, six inches thick, and eight inches long that had the “appearance of gold.”12 Many critics claim that gold plates of that dimension would weigh about 200 pounds—too heavy for Joseph to carry while running from his enemies.13 Those who handled the Book of Mormon, however, claim that the plates only weighed around 50 to 60 pounds.14
While a solid block of gold might weigh 200 pounds, unevenly hammered sheets of gold within the volume described by Joseph might only weigh 100 pounds. This is still much heavier than several Book of Mormon witnesses claimed Turning to the New World we find that the ancient inhabitants did indeed make engravings upon a metal which was lighter than gold but had the “appearance of gold.”
A 1984 article in Scientific America addressed the recent discovery of several large metal objects in South America. Most of these objects were made out of hammered sheet copper. When these copper sheets were first unearthed they were covered with a green corrosion. Once the corrosion was removed, however, they discovered that the copper had originally been covered with a thin layer of silver or gold so that these sheets “appeared to be made entirely out of those precious metals.”

The most important alloy discovered at these sites was a mixture of copper and gold known as “tumbaga.” This alloy has been discovered in ancient Mesoamerican sites at well.16 When copper and gold (the only two colored metals known to man) are melted together they mix, and stay mixed after they cool and solidify. Tumbaga ranged from 97% gold to 97% copper with traces of up to 18% of other metals or impurities. Once the gold finish was applied it would appear that the tumbaga object was made of solid gold. While tumbaga “can be cast, drawn, hammered, gilded, soldered, welded, plated, hardened, annealed, polished, engraved, embossed, and inlaid” it would destroy itself if not stored properly.17 It is therefore interesting to note that the Book of Mormon plates were laid atop two stones that lay across the bottom of the stone box so that the plates would not be exposed to water or dirt.
Too little gold in the Book of Mormon plates would have made them brittle, and too much gold would have made them too heavy as well as increasing the danger of distortion during engraving. If the Book of Mormon plates were made of tumbaga, they were probably between 8 and 12 carat gold and thus would have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds.18 When tumbaga (which is red) is treated with any simple acid—such as citric acid—the copper in the alloy is removed from its surface leaving a brilliant .0006 inch twenty-three karat gilt coating which is easier to engrave (this process was used in ancient America). To the eye, the object would have the appearance of pure gold.19

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Anachronisms4.pdf

Interesting to read…I think.
 
Sheets of lead plated in highly burnished brass would also have weighed as much. That’s assuming the Eight Witnesses actually saw something with their “natural eyes”. The Three Witnesses were all “visionary” witnesses

Anyway, for the Hanson reference
amazon.com/Carnage-Culture-Landmark-Battles-Western/dp/0385720386/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274474841&sr=8-1

By the time of the supposed Nephite immigration, iron/steel working into weapons was common in the Middle East–witness the rise of Assyria, and later, Persia and Greece. And even if “iron” in the OT usually meant “bronze” then the Indians Pizzaro and Cortez faced would have had bronze spears and swords and armor. And most importantly, bronze does not corrode anywhere like iron and steel do. If there were “million man armies” on both sides armed and armored like the BoM says, you could’nt farm without dulling your plow blades on this war detritus!

If someone has steel (or bronze) technology, one dosnt “lose it”. Celts produced mail armor and laminated swords circa 300 BC. The Romans took that technology from these “barbarians” in the northern forests.
 
One tribe of Indians that uses meteoric iron is NOT a culture that understands iron smelting and working. That’s a fortuituos find, like the nearly pure copper deposits one can still find around the Great Lakes–but much much less common.

Rich-enough meteoric iron one can sort of bang out in a sheet. But you are NOT going to base a civilization on it. I bet those particular Indians only reserved those helmets for the chiefs/officers
 
How is the excavation of Zarahemla coming?

Personally, I think the LDS have some things going for them, but I am going to need more than just coincidental evidence if I were to attempt a serious study of the Mormon faith.

I would like to see an authentic 1500 to 2000 year old site with some of those symbols Jospeh Smith said was part of the “reformed egyptian.” Heck, for that matter, I would like to see an authentic anything

I’m willing to let a few things slide based upon “faith,” I already do that, but we’re talking about massive civiliazations here that supposedly occupied very large swaths of land and have very advanced civilizations that appear to have just dropped from the face of the earth. Still a little too fishy for me…
 
I would like to see an authentic 1500 to 2000 year old site with some of those symbols Jospeh Smith said was part of the “reformed egyptian.” Heck, for that matter, I would like to see an authentic anything

I’m willing to let a few things slide based upon “faith,” I already do that, but we’re talking about massive civiliazations here that supposedly occupied very large swaths of land and have very advanced civilizations that appear to have just dropped from the face of the earth. Still a little too fishy for me…
That would make life much easier for everyone concerned. First, we would know for a surety that god exists. Nothing wrong with that. I am sometimes tired basing everything on faith. But one thing I do know, Joseph did not have such detail as contained in the book of mormon near at hand. He was not seen in a library researching. And no manusript was ever found with rought drafts or for that matter any manucript at all.

That leaves a different author besides Smith. Sidney Rigdon was one such suspect as author. But he always denied it even after leaving the lds church and gave his testimony that he did not write the book of mormon to his son and his deathbed.

So, how that book came to be is not so easy to explain.
 
Thanks for the reference, I will read Culture and Carnage when I get a chance.

Did you realize my post was edited? I hope that you were able to read the entire article. I am having trouble with the link for some reason, but I accessed it at guns, germs & steel: variables. steel.

Where does Diamond claim that Indegenous Indonesians are smarter than Europeans?
I have the book in front of me - if you have a page number let me know. Or was it mentioned on the website?

I was quoting the pbs info to show that many factors must be present to be able to produce steel swords.

thanks!
I found this interesting site from the University of N. Carolina.

Look under the headings of Archeology, and Metallurgy.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
 
That would make life much easier for everyone concerned. First, we would know for a surety that god exists. Nothing wrong with that. I am sometimes tired basing everything on faith. But one thing I do know, Joseph did not have such detail as contained in the book of mormon near at hand. He was not seen in a library researching. And no manusript was ever found with rought drafts or for that matter any manucript at all.

That leaves a different author besides Smith. Sidney Rigdon was one such suspect as author. But he always denied it even after leaving theLDS church and gave his testimony that he did not write the book of Mormon to his son and his deathbed.

So, how that book came to be is not so easy to explain.
True the origins of the BoM aren’t easily explained. There are a lot of different theory’s and most of them don’t hold a lot of water.

What is also hard to explain is the lack of Physical Evidence these civilizations ever existed. With the numbers the BoM describes as being killed in battle it is hard to imagine the evidence of such battles has yet to be found.
Also the lack of evidence in regards to Oral Tradition, Myth, or Folklore. If your Tribe had gone to War with a long and deeply hated rival tribe and you extinguished your rival to utter destruction on the battle field wouldn’t a record be kept to mark the event? Wouldn’t there be many records kept?

How come there is no Hieroglyphs which resemble the Hieroglyphs found on the Gold Plates? If we’re talking about a massive civilization which evidently kept written records as well as had an oral tradition of History, where are these other records which match the Gold Plates J. Smith had? The written language on the records which have been found from the purported time frame in which the BoM took place have no resemblance of the written language found on the Gold Plates?

I don like your point about gold/copper alloy. I had forgotten about that. So even if this was the technology used by the Nephites/Lamanites it doesn’t settle the fact of No Physical evidence. Where is all the weaponry, tools, manufacture facilities, mining, where are the bodies?
The physical evidence doesn’t add up. How ever the BoM came to be who ever put it together didn’t think about the logistical implications the stories contained in the book would present. They or he/she didn’t know the cultural implications either.
These are concerns and questions which should be laid to rest and resolved giving our escalating ability to piece history together through Anthropological and Archaeological techniques, but alas as our techniques become more advanced, better able, instead of answering questions regarding these peoples mentioned in the BoM, it only raises more.
 
I don like your point about gold/copper alloy. I had forgotten about that. So even if this was the technology used by the Nephites/Lamanites it doesn’t settle the fact of No Physical evidence. Where is all the weaponry, tools, manufacture facilities, mining, where are the bodies?
The physical evidence doesn’t add up. How ever the BoM came to be who ever put it together didn’t think about the logistical implications the stories contained in the book would present. They or he/she didn’t know the cultural implications either.
These are concerns and questions which should be laid to rest and resolved giving our escalating ability to piece history together through Anthropological and Archaeological techniques, but alas as our techniques become more advanced, better able, instead of answering questions regarding these peoples mentioned in the BoM, it only raises more.
Here is what we know about these people: they were warlike. The people who existed at that time had wars. And these wars were bloody. Human sacrifices were also performed on prisoners. And yet, we have very little bodies to confirm this. In other words, bones are hard to come by due to the weather.

Have you ever seen the Mel Gibson movie, apocalypto?

video.movies.go.com/apocalypto/
 
I found this interesting site from the University of N. Carolina.

Look under the headings of Archeology, and Metallurgy.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
So the University of North Carolina has an antimormon website dedicated to those who are contemplating leaving the lds church? You gotta be kidding. 😃

I will bet a penny that there is an organization on campus that is probably born again christian that uses the beginning address of the university for its own purposes. Unfortunately there is no homepage for that organization on the North Carolina campus.

But one thing is certain: the university is not coming out against mormonism as a university. The protests would be huge since if this university is public or even private, it should have no business in having such a blatant antimormon stance.

And here is the department listed in the homepage without the antimormon address.

Mission
We are here to conduct inquiry devoted to information generation and use to prepare reflective, adaptive information professionals for action in the present and the future, and to transfer to them an uncompromising advocacy for knowledge. . .

The School of Information and Library Science seeks to advance the profession and practice of librarianship and information science; to prepare students for careers in the field of information and library science; and to make significant contributions to the study of information. Faculty members further these goals by teaching and advisory work; by research and scholarly publishing; and by service to the school, the university, the state, and the professional community.

So the School of Information and Library Science supports a website for those contemplating leaving the lds church? I doubt it. I doubt they even know of the link to their homepage. No department can officially do such a thing if this is a public or even non-religious university.

Talk about a deceptive site, pretending to be a university supported research address. :mad:
 
I found this interesting site from the University of N. Carolina.

Look under the headings of Archeology, and Metallurgy.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
I forgot to mention, the gentleman Thomas S. Ferguson that is quoted so much on that site, was instrumental in establishing the Dept. of Archeology at BYU.

He set out to prove the BoM as factual, and ended up proving himself right out of mormonism.
 
I forgot to mention, the gentleman Thomas S. Ferguson that is quoted so much on that site, was instrumental in establishing the Dept. of Archeology at BYU.

He set out to prove the BoM as factual, and ended up proving himself right out of mormonism.
Fascinating.

So I guess his testimony changed to “I know that the Book of Mormon is NOT true…”
 
So, how that book came to be is not so easy to explain.
Well, maybe if you’re not willing to look very hard…
*
BOOK OF MORMON AUTHORSHIP: A Closer Look* has this sub-title:
“A comprehensive study of the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the writings of Solomon Spaulding.”

About the Spalding manuscript (from wiki):
In 1832, Latter Day Saint missionaries Samuel H. Smith and Orson Hyde visited Conneaut, Ohio, and preached from the Book of Mormon. Nehemiah King, a resident of Conneaut who knew Spalding when he lived there, felt that the Mormon text resembled the story written by Spalding years before. In 1833, Spalding’s brother John and seven other residents of Conneaut signed affidavits stating that Spalding had written a manuscript, portions of which were identical to the Book of Mormon. These statements were published in E. D. Howe’s 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed, in which the theory was presented that the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from this manuscript.
Woodbridge Riley, in The founder of Mormonism: a psychological study of Joseph Smith, Jr, (pp 124-25) had this to say about the Hebraic origins of the American Indian:
Interest in these theories was wide; as was said by Ethan Smith in his ’ View of the Hebrews or the Tribes of Israel in America,’—the importance of the question ‘Where are the ten tribes of Israel?,’ brought about a speedy sale of the first edition. This work was published in Poultney, Vermont, next to Windsor County, where Joseph’s parents once lived, and by 1825 had circulated to westernmost New York.
Parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon (from wiki):
It has been argued that there are significant parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon. In 1922 B.H. Roberts (1857–1933), a prominent LDS apologist and historian, was asked to answer a non-believer’s five critical questions by LDS Apostle James E. Talmage. It is unclear when Roberts first learned of the View of the Hebrews or what motivated him to make the comparison, but he produced a confidential report that summarized eighteen points of similarity between the two works.
and
Fawn Brodie, the first important historian to write a non-hagiographic biography of Joseph Smith, believed that Joseph Smith’s theory of the Hebraic origin of the American Indians came “chiefly” from View of the Hebrews.
 
Well, maybe if you’re not willing to look very hard…
*
BOOK OF MORMON AUTHORSHIP: A Closer Look* has this sub-title:
“A comprehensive study of the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the writings of Solomon Spaulding.”

About the Spalding manuscript (from wiki):

Woodbridge Riley, in The founder of Mormonism: a psychological study of Joseph Smith, Jr, (pp 124-25) had this to say about the Hebraic origins of the American Indian:

Parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon (from wiki):

and
Did you know that the Title page of the 1830 version of the BoM, shows JS as the “Author”, not the “Translator”

inephi.com/1.htm

Considering this is a scanned image of that page, it is kind of hard to refute.
 
The only thing that I could even remotely give credit to Joseph Smith for would be a prodigious imagination. He rivals L. Ron Hubbard himself, who was also a science fiction writer and also manufactured his own religion. Suffice it to say, that even after all the time and treasure spent by the mormon “church” to prove the truth of the BOM, not a shred of evidence exists to verify all the yarns spun by Joseph in hopes of legitimizing his bogus “religion.” This thread merely points out just one of the falsities of the BOM. Prove the BOM? Good luck, mormons.
 
that says quite a lot
Not really. But let me put it this way: North Carolina is a public university. Do you really think that a public university would endorse the web page that seems to be leeching onto it? I don’t think so. Suppose a similiar webpage was started about the catholic faith. Do you think that a public university should be helping catholics leave their faith? Of course, in our biasness we fail to see the wrong. The las time I looked mormons pay state taxes in North Carolina. No public university should be engaged with such a site especially since the site is hooked up to a North Carolina University department’s webpage.

No public university would endorse this type of webpage and so, the site is already suspect. See my point?

And people are entitled to what they want to believe. Do you think that no catholic academic lost their faith and went to the other side? Are they any more reliable than someone else?
 
Well, maybe if you’re not willing to look very hard…
*
BOOK OF MORMON AUTHORSHIP: A Closer Look* has this sub-title:
“A comprehensive study of the similarities between the Book of Mormon and the writings of Solomon Spaulding.”

About the Spalding manuscript (from wiki):

Woodbridge Riley, in The founder of Mormonism: a psychological study of Joseph Smith, Jr, (pp 124-25) had this to say about the Hebraic origins of the American Indian:

Parallels between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon (from wiki):

and
And this proves what exactly? No serious critic of Mormonism believes that Joseph Smith borrowed from the View of the Hebrews. And of course, there have been studies about Joseph Smith and mormonism. But that proves nothing also.

But this is interesting:

View of the Hebrews during the lifetime of Joseph Smith
The theory the Joseph Smith plagiarized View of the Hebrews was never advanced during his lifetime. The prevailing theory of the day was the Spalding Theory, which quickly lost credibility upon the discovery of an actual Spalding manuscript in 1884 which bore no resemblance to the Book of Mormon. There are no records which indicate that Joseph Smith came into contact with the View of the Hebrews during the period of time that he was translating the Book of Mormon. The View of the Hebrews theory was in fact first proposed by I. Woodbridge Riley in 1902, 58 years after the death of the prophet.[1]

There was, however, a reference to View of the Hebrews within Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but it came from the prophet himself. In an article published in the Times and Seasons on June 1, 1842, Joseph quoted View of the Hebrews in support of the Book of Mormon:

If such may have been the fact, that a part of the Ten Tribes came over to America, in the way we have supposed, leaving the cold regions of Assareth behind them in quest of a milder climate, it would be natural to look for tokens of the presence of Jews of some sort, along countries adjacent to the Atlantic. In order to this, we shall here make an extract from an able work: written exclusively on the subject of the Ten Tribes having come from Asia by the way of Bherings Strait, by the Rev. Ethan Smith, Pultney, Vt., who relates as follows: "Joseph Merrick, Esq., a highly respectable character in the church at Pittsfield, gave the following account: That in 1815, he was leveling some ground under and near an old wood shed, standing on a place of his, situated on (Indian Hill)… [Joseph then discusses the supposed phylacteries found among Amerindians, citing View of the Hebrews p. 220, 223.][2]
It strains credulity to claim that Joseph drew attention to the work from which he derived most of his ideas. Why would he call attention to the source of his forgery?

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/View_of_the_Hebrews

You really should research the other side before you reach conclusions. There is more to the picture than the antisites claim.
 
This thread is not about the view of the hebrews. But about metallurgy. And I provided sources that demonstrated the use of metals during the time frame of the book of mormon.
 
so, how that book came to be is not so easy to explain.
My earlier post did not point to the most obvious answer to your query.

3 Nephi 10:3-6:
  1. And it came to pass that there came a voice again unto the people, and all the people did hear, and did witness of it, saying:
  1. O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have i gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.
  1. And again, how oft would i have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, o ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, o ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would i have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.
  1. O ye house of israel whom i have 'spared, how oft will i gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
Sound familiar? It should:
Matthew 23:37 (KJV):
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
You could fill many volumes with embellishments like that.
 
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