Methodist pastor's sermon on Catholics

[anp1215]

This is a the pastor of a very large Methodist Church in my area…I really enjoyed this sermon and thought he had a refreshingly open-minded attitude about Catholics. Actually a lot of the things he touched on are things that drew me to the faith. I swear this guy wants to be Catholic and just doesn’t know it yet
He even ends with a charitable commentary about the sex abuse scandal.
thewoodlandsumc.org/message/traditional/20110130

 

[po18guy]

Methodists are some of our brothers and sisters who are best disposed toward the Church. I enjoy conversation with them. As to the Pastor, well, we will see. Have you heard of Catholic Deacon Alex Jones? He was pastor of his own non-denom community and, from scripture, realized that the true Church was Apostolic in nature. So, he began to become Apostolic in his services. The congregation began grilling him on whether or not he was becoming Catholic, and he responded “No, I’m just being Apostolic” Bottom line, he and 50+ of his congregation all converted. Praise God!

 

[joanofarc2008]

I don’t know - I think some of his objections were still pretty big and the Monseigner would have gotten him if it would have been possible but then again God knows his heart.

 

[po18guy]

But, conversion is not up to him, but rather to the Holy Spirit. He’s a truth seeker, or he would not be Christian, IMO.

 

[CalCatholic]

This is a the pastor of a very large Methodist Church in my area…I really enjoyed this sermon and thought he had a refreshingly open-minded attitude about Catholics. Actually a lot of the things he touched on are things that drew me to the faith. I swear this guy wants to be Catholic and just doesn’t know it yet
He even ends with a charitable commentary about the sex abuse scandal.
thewoodlandsumc.org/message/traditional/20110130

I agree , Dr Robb was very fair in showing the differences between the faiths, but I was impressed with the things that he appreciates about the Catholic Church, I wish there were more Catholics that felt that way about the Church!

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

It looks like he has several sermons on non-Methodist Christians. Has anyone listened to those? He might just have an ecumenical spirit.

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[Madaglan]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Did you write this up yourself?

 

[waxwing]

Think Methodist’s are ecumenical in general, but have heard they are one the friendliest in term of their relationship to Catholics. Wish more Protestants would follow their lead in acknowleding differences but emphaizing all that we have in common and leaving out the hyperbole and half truth’s from the conversation. On the flip side we could watch ourselves to make sure we don’t veer into triumphalism and patronization.

 

[Roy5]

Methodists are very ecumenical as a group. There is a small group of Methodists, especially a few pastors, who lay considerable emphasis on their Anglican roots and are what one might call ‘high church Methodist’. This is a small minority, however.

I find the main difference between Catholicism and Methodists is the freedom Methodists have (and treasure) to have various opinions on matters of doctrine, the Bible, and lifestyles. Some churches use the Apostles Creed. Some do not. Some are conservative when it comes to scripture and might, for example, believe the story of Noah and the Flood. Others would dismiss this as folklore, a legend that became overblown. Some refuse to drink alcohol at any occasion or shop on Sundays on religious grounds. Others have abandoned this Methodist stance of 75 years ago. 

 Generally, Methodists have the idea that the church should be big enough for Christians of many different perspectives. They are likely to be friendly to other Christians, but also to non-Christian faiths. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, made two statements that come to mind that foster ecumenism. "Think and let think" is often quoted. And, when he was urged to be critical of other groups, he said something like: "If your heart is right, if you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together."

 But don't think that any sort of signficant trend toward Catholicism exists within Methodism. Their friendliness toward other religions doesn't mean that they are drifting toward any of them. They are the largest group in the National Council of Churches, where many Protestants and Orthodox groups come together in mutual respect. Inm Canada and Australia they have combined with Congregationalists and Presbyterians - an interesting merger, in that Cs and Ps are Calvinists originally, Methodists definitely not.

 

[Incomplete]

Think Methodist’s are ecumenical in general, but have heard they are one the friendliest in term of their relationship to Catholics. Wish more Protestants would follow their lead in acknowleding differences but emphaizing all that we have in common and leaving out the hyperbole and half truth’s from the conversation. On the flip side we could watch ourselves to make sure we don’t veer into triumphalism and patronization.

It’s very easy for me to veer into triumphalism! Good reminder.

This thread reminds me of a sermon my friend told me about from her non-denominational pastor. He was talking about Mary, and said, “We don’t revere Mary like Catholics do. And we should!”

Made my day.

 

[cooterhein]

But, conversion is not up to him, but rather to the Holy Spirit. He’s a truth seeker, or he would not be Christian, IMO.

It’s very probable that God’s already converted the minister in the sense that God transformed him and caused him to become a child of God. It’s also very probable that Rome’s role in that was extremely tangential at best- and the degree to which Rome is involved does not matter. God still gets it done.

 

[anp1215]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. But to clarify, when I said that the pastor wants to be Catholic and doesn’t know it yet, I was half joking, evidenced by the “wink.” Yes, if he did decide to convert, that would be wonderful, and I’m not saying it will never happen, but at this point I think he is very happy being a Methodist, evidenced by another sermon he gave, “Why I am a Methodist” (I haven’t watched it).

The sermons about other Christian denominations weren’t all by him, only two (the non-denominationals and Baptists) were. And yes, I watched those as well. I liked the one on Baptists and the one on Lutherans (which was given by a Lutheran pastor) but didn’t think the non-denominational and charismatic sermons were that great.

 

[Juliebug108]

Think Methodist’s are ecumenical in general, but have heard they are one the friendliest in term of their relationship to Catholics. Wish more Protestants would follow their lead in acknowleding differences but emphaizing all that we have in common and leaving out the hyperbole and half truth’s from the conversation. On the flip side we could watch ourselves to make sure we don’t veer into triumphalism and patronization.

I think the Methodist church is just in general VERY accepting of everyone. They ordain openly gay ministers. Also, a Methodist church around the Chicago area is even taking it so far that they are hosting a Gay Cabaret…

chicagotribune.com/news/religion/ct-met-church-theater-20110402,0,5998325.story

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Roy5]

I believe that the Methodists do not ordain gays who are not celibate. This is still a hot issue among Methodists when they meet every four years to vote on such policies - General Conference, it is called. Each quadrennium the majority have voted against ordaining non-celibate gays, largely because of Methodism’s strong constituency in the south and midwest. Delegates from the northeast and the Pacific coast favor such ordination.

Methodism is very diverse and includes large numbers of strong conservatives and avid liberals who nattle it out. In 1845 it actually split between north and south over sectional issues, reuniting in 1939.

 

[po18guy]

It’s very probable that God’s already converted the minister in the sense that God transformed him and caused him to become a child of God. It’s also very probable that Rome’s role in that was extremely tangential at best- and the degree to which Rome is involved does not matter. God still gets it done.

It is not about winners and losers, but about an honest, heartfelt search for the fullness of truth - and Christian unity, as our Lord fervently prayed for to His Father. Either we search until the mission is complete, or we settle for less than God has revealed. Fair enough?

 

[cooterhein]

It is not about winners and losers, but about an honest, heartfelt search for the fullness of truth - and Christian unity, as our Lord fervently prayed for to His Father. Either we search until the mission is complete, or we settle for less than God has revealed. Fair enough?

The message I’m getting from you is that everything about your Christian tribe is worth looking into and everything about other Christian tribes is only worth searching after if it can also be found in your tribe, and if people don’t make it to your tribe, they settle for less.

If that is what you’re trying to get across, then no, I don’t think that’s either true or fair.

There are some things that make you a better Catholic and a better Christian. Others make you a worse Catholic and a worse Christian. This is one of the things that makes you a better Catholic and a worse Christian.

 

[gtrenewed]

Help me understand the ‘Spectre’ reference at the bottom of your post for I see nothing Catholic nor Christian about it!

Please excuse the offpost question.

 

[po18guy]

The message I’m getting from you is that everything about your Christian tribe is worth looking into and everything about other Christian tribes is only worth searching after if it can also be found in your tribe, and if people don’t make it to your tribe, they settle for less.

If that is what you’re trying to get across, then no, I don’t think that’s either true or fair.

There are some things that make you a better Catholic and a better Christian. Others make you a worse Catholic and a worse Christian. This is one of the things that makes you a better Catholic and a worse Christian.

It is not a tribe, it is the Body of Christ on earth - His Church. It is not mine, I simply belong to it. I am but a tiny, insignificant part of it. It is Christ’s Church and, per the Nicene Creed (AD 325), its four hallmarks are that it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. This is exactly as Christ founded it and exactly as Christ prayed it would remain.

The Church that Christ founded has the entire deposit of faith. It has all of the divinely revealed truth. You are absolutely correct that those who remain outside of her settle for less. This is not triumphalism - it is not arrogance. It is confidence. I was outside of her, as you are. I examined her, I questioned her. I studied her. And, I joined her.

I can only implore you to examine her, to study her and to question her.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

IN Canada and Australia they have combined with Congregationalists and Presbyterians - an interesting merger, in that Cs and Ps are Calvinists originally, Methodists definitely not.

i don’t know about Canada, but in Australia they formed the Uniting Church out of the merger. However at the time they merged, Methodists and Congregationalists went in completely - Presbyterians voted parish by parish. As a result there are still a considerable number of Presbyterian parishes.

I’ve often quoted “my old pastor” in my posts. I met him in the Presbyterian Church, but he was Methodist by training. When the Uniting Church merger took place, he had no choice at the time. When I asked him why he left the Uniting Church, he commented, “They seemed to play politics with their parishes. For example they’d put a right wing pastor and left wing pastor in the same parish”. I think there was more to it than that, but he left the Uniting Church for the Presbyterians. He lost a lot of superannuationin the process, so it cost him.

However I don’t think he found the Presbyterians much use in the end.

As someone else noted, Methodists seem to get on well with Catholics and he was no exception. He had disagreements with the Catholic Church, but he also told me that he “found he generally got on pretty well with Catholics”. I remember one humorous story he told me when he had a posting to a country parish somewhere. There was an old shack on the property he wanted to get of, and a local builder offered him ‘fifty quid’ for it. This must have been back in the 1960’s before we converted to decimal currency.

He was keen to take it, but then he realised the builder was Catholic. So he said, “Look, ah, I appreciate the offer, but, um, what might ‘Father’ say when he finds out that you’ve given fifty quid to a Protestant Church?” Back then of course the Protestant - Catholic divide was a lot stronger than it is now.

The builder thought for a moment, and then said, “Here, look, you take the fifty quid, and if ‘Father’ says anything, I’ll tell him I was helping to demolish Protestantism!”