Methodists and the Real Presence

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Indeed. And this is because both Lutherans and Catholics correctly profess the doctrine of the Real Presence. One of us simply doesn’t try to explain how a miracle happens. 😛 😃
Leaving it undefined and therefore resulting in errors such as “Receptionism”. 🙂
 
I also came from the Methodist church. The answer to your question is - no they do not believe in the real presence. My understanding and experience is the Methodist belief is that Jesus is spiritually present and essentially it is symbolic since it is not real to them.

But like many protestant denominations, I’m sure you could get a difference of opinions if you went from say United Methodist to Methodist or to a Southern Methodist church! 🙂
It is so funny this came up. Just 2 weeks ago a Methodist customer of mine was of course dogging the RCC. I think he comes to my shop once every 3 weeks just to mess with me.

But anyway I said do you want to know what keeps me RC? He said yes, I said the Eucharist the actual bread and blood of Christ.

He said we Methodist have communion. I said yes but you call it a symbol of Christ not his actual body.

He said to me. Guess what he said to me? Okay I will tell!!

He said your CRAZY!:eek::rotfl:

That is not what they teach:shrug:
 
This seems like a non sequitur to me, so please explain how one is related to the other. While Lutherans generally do not practice Eucharistic adoration outside the sacramental act, we do not believe that His presence is dependent on the faith of either the celebrant or the communicant. If it were, then Paul’s admonition in Corinthians would be hollow.

I give thanks that the Spirit moved you in this way.

Jon
Poor Jon no matter where you go you end up trying to defend Luther.
I am in the same boat but mine is the Pope.

Maybe someday we will find rest!😃
 
No, it is completely different. Grape juice is produced when the must is artificialy prevented from fermenting.

“non alcoholic wine” is normal wine that has most but not all of the alchohol removed, again by artificial means.

In nature all grape juice ferments unless it is stopped by freezing or pasteurisation.

The reason I brought this up is that the rubrics of the United Methodist Church states that pure juice of the grape is to be used.
Thanks Andrew & Steve,

You know the ‘temperance movement’ during the 1900’s may have had a hand in requiring grape juice for Methodist Eucharist. I wonder if John Wesley allowed wine for holy Communion?

I could be wrong, but I think even Lutheran churches allow grape juice for alcoholics. It would seem that the alcohol levels should be intentionally low for communion wine since clergy must consume so much wine/ ablutions if there are multiple Masses.
 
Thanks Andrew & Steve,

You know the ‘temperance movement’ during the 1900’s may have had a hand in requiring grape juice for Methodist Eucharist. I wonder if John Wesley allowed wine for holy Communion?

I could be wrong, but I think even Lutheran churches allow grape juice for alcoholics. It would seem that the alcohol levels should be intentionally low for communion wine since clergy must consume so much wine/ ablutions if there are multiple Masses.
Well, I don’t know about Methodist liturgical practices, but in the Catholic Church the priest might consume 1/4 of a glass of wine at most. There would be at least an hour before consuming again, so this is not an issue. For alcoholics, they are advised to receive only the host.
 
Well, I don’t know about Methodist liturgical practices, but in the Catholic Church the priest might consume 1/4 of a glass of wine at most. There would be at least an hour before consuming again, so this is not an issue. For alcoholics, they are advised to receive only the host.
I was also wondering if it was difficult for Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican churches to even purchase communion wine during the Prohibition years?

The statement about “1/4 cup” seems a little low, in my opinion especially if the celebrant blessed much more wine than necessary. I’ve seen this happen in Lutheran churches. If the pastor attempts to cleanse the chalice, he would need to consume much more than 1/4 cup.
 
I was also wondering if it was difficult for Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican churches to even purchase communion wine during the Prohibition years?

The statement about “1/4 cup” seems a little low, in my opinion especially if the celebrant blessed much more wine than necessary. I’ve seen this happen in Lutheran churches. If the pastor attempts to cleanse the chalice, he would need to consume much more than 1/4 cup.
We would have the extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist help consume the precious blood if it ever came to that, and it does. I have helped consume the left over precious blood more than a few times, along with the priest and deacon and others who were present. I don’t recall ever witnessing someone walking away with a buzz.
 
Oh, heavens. That’s a terrible typo. I’m embarrassed. Mod help?
:rotfl: I have seen this same typo more than once so I wouldn’t worry about it. I think everyone is adult enough to understand what you meant. 🙂
 
And it’s for reasons like these that we catechize.
Judging from the number of Lutherans who embrace “receptionism” I would say that you are on a par with the Catholic Church’s success in catechizing in the past. 😃
 
Oh, heavens. That’s a terrible typo. I’m embarrassed. Mod help?
:rotfl::rotfl: If you want to notify the mods…click on the triangle thing at the top right…same as when you report a spam…and notify the mods of the correction needed.
 
As a confessional Lutheran, I am so embarrassed. :o
:rotfl:
Just read it with a scottish accent and seems much better 🙂



And I’d like to take the time to welcome steido02 as CAF’s newest member!
 
So if a Roman Catholic takes holy Communion in a Lutheran church, they are only receiving a “spiritual” Christ?
Do Christians belonging to the Lutheran church claim to possess a validly ordained priesthood? My niece (Christian belonging to the Lutheran church) says no. Of course there are different Lutheran churches and different beliefs, which is why I am asking.
 
More detail from the Book of Discipline:

Article XVIII, The Articles of Religion, The Book of Discipline: "The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather is a sacrament of our redemption by Christ’s death; insomuch that, to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ; and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ. **"Transubstantiation, or the change of the substance of bread and wine in the Supper of our Lord, cannot be proved by Scripture, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthrows the nature of a sacrament, and has given occasion to many superstitions. **"The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after a heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith. “The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was not by Christ’s ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshiped.”

If I understand some of you correctly, the Methodist church does not state that a Methodist must believe one way or the other. However, after reading this, it seems to me to be saying that you dont have to believe one way or the other necessarily, but that it is dangerous to believe in transubstantiation. Am I completely misinterpreting this?
Why the need for the Book of Discipline when a practising Methodist has the plain words of Scripture?
 
Do Christians belonging to the Lutheran church claim to possess a validly ordained priesthood? My niece (Christian belonging to the Lutheran church) says no. Of course there are different Lutheran churches and different beliefs, which is why I am asking.
Hi Joe,
The confessions claim that our priesthood is valid, so what individual Lutherans might think is irrelevant.

From the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
Jerome, therefore, teaches that it is by human authority that the grades of bishop and elder or pastor are distinct. And the subject itself declares this, because the power [the office and command] is the same, as he has said above. 64] But one matter afterwards made a distinction between bishops and pastors namely, ordination, because it was [so] arranged that one bishop should ordain ministers in a number of churches.
65] But since by divine authority the grades of bishop and pastor are not diverse, it is manifest that ordination administered by a pastor in his own church is **valid by divine law **[if a pastor in his own church ordains certain suitable persons to the ministry, such ordination is, according to divine law, undoubtedly effective and right].
Jon
 
Thanks Andrew & Steve,

You know the ‘temperance movement’ during the 1900’s may have had a hand in requiring grape juice for Methodist Eucharist. I wonder if John Wesley allowed wine for holy Communion?

I could be wrong, but I think even Lutheran churches allow grape juice for alcoholics. It would seem that the alcohol levels should be intentionally low for communion wine since clergy must consume so much wine/ ablutions if there are multiple Masses.
Wesley allowed wine because that’s all there was at the time. He was before the ‘temperance movement’ but he objected strongly to the abuse of gin in the UK.
 
More detail from the Book of Discipline:

Article XVIII, The Articles of Religion, The Book of Discipline: "The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather is a sacrament of our redemption by Christ’s death; insomuch that, to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ; and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ. **"Transubstantiation, or the change of the substance of bread and wine in the Supper of our Lord, cannot be proved by Scripture, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthrows the nature of a sacrament, and has given occasion to many superstitions. **"The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after a heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith. “The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was not by Christ’s ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshiped.”

If I understand some of you correctly, the Methodist church does not state that a Methodist must believe one way or the other. However, after reading this, it seems to me to be saying that you dont have to believe one way or the other necessarily, but that it is dangerous to believe in transubstantiation. Am I completely misinterpreting this?
Lifted from the CofE Book of Common Prayer, verbatim. I used to be Episcopalian and occasionally visiting in a place that had no Episcopal church I would visit a United Methodist church. Often the ministers would tell me “we are just like Episcopalians”, but I never saw it.

One of those ministers was wearing a purple necktie during Advent I guess that was Episcopal to him! :rolleyes:
 
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