Quote:
Originally Posted by ezeekl
Well that is a new one for me. Maybe you can enlighten us on exactly what the Lutheran concept of Apostolic Succession really is?
It has been discussed several times on CAF; I can’t point you to the exact most recent thread but the Church of Sweden/ Finland and other Baltic countries went from Catholic to Lutheran without a disruption of Apostolic Succession. The Roman Catholic Church has never challenged AS as invalid for Lutherans.
In an
overly-simplified nutshell; AS to Lutherans means maintaining the Apostolic
Teaching, not necessarily maintaining history’s longest game of tag.
You guys ought to get together and decide exactly what is Apostolic Succession. Your division on this only caused me to do my own research. Here is what I found.
Regarding the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Finland and the Church of Sweden, neither one of these churches have the Sacrament of Holy Orders, as Luther rejected it. But still they claim that bishops, priests and deacons are ordained and thus, according to them, have apostolic succession. Their claim rests on a chart of succession showing how Luther (an ordained Catholic priest) passed the succession to Mikael Agricola, the bishop of Turku, Finland.
However, as was pointed out here earlier. Priests like Luther are not empowered to consecrate bishops or to ordain other priests. Authority in the early church rested with the Apostles who were the first bishops. In Acts 1 Peter calls for a replacement to fill the “bishopric” vacated by Judas. Matthias becomes the first bishop who was not an Apostle. He was consecrated by the eleven Apostles and started the Apostolic Succession from the Apostles.
In the second century Irenaeus wrote the following:
“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:2).
He then added:
“The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere” (ibid., 4:33:8).
So the claim by some Lutherans to Apostolic Succession from the Swedish or Finnish Churches is totally without merit. All authority resides in the bishop. A bishop may delegate authority to a priest. The common delegation is one to administer the sacraments of Reconciliation, Eucharist, Last Rites and Matrimony. The bishop usually retains the administration of the scaraments of Confirmation and Holy Orders. But these can, due to circumstances and at the discretion of the Bishop also be delegated. Such delegation is temporary. The Sacrament of Baptism, because of its importance, can be administered by anyone as long as the proper form (Trinitarian) and matter (water) are employed.
Seems to me that “Apostolic Succession” is the latest protestant fad to come around. Sort of like the next I phone or the one “must have” toy for Christmas. But where did they get this idea of Apostolic Succession if not from Catholics? Listen, if you guys want to be ‘just like Catholics’ then I can make it real simple for you. Just convert and be done with all the false allegations. Time to come home folks, time to come home.
However, I thought Martin Luther rejected the catholic ministerial priesthood, claiming that all Christians, by virtue of their baptism, are priests, something the CC also believes i.e. both ministerial and royal priesthood. I thought he rejected the catholic sacrament of ordination (holy orders)?
We know our orders to be valid. Whether our pastors be ordained via the succession method currently used by Rome or via the ancient presbyter method, we know they are “rightly called” by the church, and therefore able to administer the Sacraments.
