Methodists

[guanophore]

No problem Bro. One of my mottos is sometimes as in other aspects of life, in faith we simply have to agree to disagree. And leave it and as far as that goes, any differences in the pews, up to God. Peace.

You are right, it is up to God. However, God has made it clear that there should be no “differences in the pews”.

1 Cor 1:10

Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.

You seem to think that these differences in doctrine are permissible, and that God does not really want us to be united in “one mind”.

The Church founded by Christ has unity, and those who depart from that unity are in a state of separation.

Eph 4:3-6
making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Notice the Apostle instructs us to “maintain”’ the unity. Encouraging “differences in the pews” is NOT “making every effort” to maintain unity.

 

[CMatt25]

You are right, it is up to God. However, God has made it clear that there should be no “differences in the pews”.

1 Cor 1:10

Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose.

You seem to think that these differences in doctrine are permissible, and that God does not really want us to be united in “one mind”.

The Church founded by Christ has unity, and those who depart from that unity are in a state of separation.

Eph 4:3-6
making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Notice the Apostle instructs us to “maintain”’ the unity. Encouraging “differences in the pews” is NOT “making every effort” to maintain unity.

Hi Guan, not surprised to see you. I’ll just say the minds of Christians, the Body of Christ, including the Methodists this thread is about, are united in HIm. And shall leave it at that. Peace.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hi Guan, not surprised to see you. I’ll just say the minds of Christians, the Body of Christ, including the Methodists this thread is about, are united in HIm. And shall leave it at that. Peace.

If there are differences then how can on be “united in Him” if you can not agree about Him at all.

This is just the sort of wishy washy mind games that chased me away from the protestants.

 

[achmafooma]

If there are differences then how can on be “united in Him” if you can not agree about Him at all.

This is just the sort of wishy washy mind games that chased me away from the protestants.

While I still have much affinity for the UMC – it being the denomination where I became a Christian and that shepherded my faith journey for many years – I feel much the same way.

What drew me into the Catholic Church, among other things, was that it clearly defines what all of this means and says, unequivocally, ‘this is the moral belief revealed to us by God’…and it clearly describes how and why it has the God-given authority to make such proclamations. Yes, many individuals who call themselves Catholic reject particular teachings of the Church. But we as Catholics know (or, at least, should know) what the truth is and why we should subscribe to it. We know we have no right to assume God smiles on us when we reject the unchanging teachings of the Holy Church that He established on Earth.

The appeal of the UMC ‘big tent’ is that we can all have our beliefs, even those outside of what’s defined by the UMC General Conferences, and the expectation is that we’re still on God’s good side. This never rang true to me, even when I was a dedicated Methodist voting on matters at the Annual Conferences as a lay delegate. I kept thinking, ‘What does God think of all the people voting wrong on these important issues of faith? …and what if I’m one of the ones voting wrong on this issue? What if my vote leads the Virginia Conference to support sin and error, and then lobby the General Conference to do the same?’

With immense respect and love for my Methodist brethren, the whole system really does lend itself to spiritual and moral wishy-washiness. That’s just the reality of democratic systems, which I think work great (generally) for civil government but are badly suited for religion. Having read the Scripture in-depth, God never seemed to be wishy-washy, or to enjoy wishy-washiness among His peoples, or believe in the merits of majority rule when it came to defining what was sinful and what was virtuous. After all, Adam and Eve decreed by majority rule that Humans should be permitted to eat the forbidden fruit!

God made decrees, and expected us to follow them. Oh yes, He forgave us when we [constantly] broke those rules…and sent Jesus to forgive all sins and lead us all to salvation…but even then, kept telling us to ‘go and sin no more.’ He didn’t give us the authority to live by our own rules as individuals.

Once again, I do not mean to be overly critical…There are many wonderful things about the UMC, and I am still very close friends with many people I met along my faith journey in the UMC…but in my many years as a Methodist, I never had a clear, trustworthy guide as to how to live my life to please God. We would have great, in-depth discussions on difficult issues, and reach no conclusions at the end. From there, I had to find my own path and hope and pray that it was right (knowing always that others around me had chosen a different path, and were also hoping and praying it was right).

One of the greatest blessings of my still-relatively-new Catholic faith is, when I have a question about faith and morals, I know there is a clear, trustworthy answer that I can follow without constant second-guessing.

God bless you!

 

[Roy5]

Just to reiterate

** 1. Obviously, many people prefer a religion that is emphatic about what to believe.** This is true of numerous Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and others. Therefore they embrace authoritarian-style religion. However, some of us have difficulty with that as we feel it limits our exciting exploration of different theologies, faiths, etc. I was raised in a mixed Catholic-Protestant tradition (French Canadian Catholic heritage on one side, New England Congregationalist on the other). I’ve arrived at the conclusion, over the years, that for me the UCC, the UMC, Presbyterian USA, and Disciples of Christ permit considerable freedom. So do Episcopalians and many Lutherans (ELCA) - though I’m more into ‘low church’ worship than heavy, prayerbook ritual myself. But different strokes for different folks.

** 2. The other day I was discussing matters of faith with a woman I met**. When we realized that we had major differences, her comment was simply: “Same God!” I like that. We have the same God. My emphasis is on God as beyond human understanding. As I recall, Psalm 119 has a beautiful verse or two pointing that out. Frankly, many people need to know more about God than I believe humankind can know. Most of our spiritual ancestors had no idea of the huge dimensions of this universe, so they actually believed that God was up in the sky somewhere, that hell was in the bowels of the earth, etc. Today we know better. Too many good people have not altered their theology to fit the new knowledge. They depend upon Church Fathers and others, brilliant for their era, who built their theologies on very skimpy knowledge. I have read many of them - from St. Clement and Origen to Tertullian and Augustine - and wrote my undergraduate thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas, Sorry, but I believe they are given too much weight in our modern world. I recall the shock I felt when I found that Aquinas favored the execution of heretics. How does that fit into Christian thinking today? I read regularly how the Pope is pushing for religious freedom

** 3. When I attend mass, as I frequently do, I find that Catholic priests and laity differ considerably among themselves.** One priest (recently retired) was firm in his defense of gay rights, for example. He also was outspoken in opposing US involvement in war. In this area I believe that Catholics may be more ‘liberal’ on many issues - social as well as economic - than many Protestants. They certainly vote more Democratic than Protestants do, although some mainline Protestants have abandoned their GOP heritage - most come from Republican backgrounds, often going back to the Civil War - and voted for Obama. Interesting and complex situation both religiously and politically. It will be interesting to watch how it play out in years to come.

** 4. My commitment is to interreligious understanding and mutual respect.** While I may disagree with some Catholic teachings, I respect the wonderful work the RCC had done and continues to do here and around the world. I certainly don’t go along with Protestant fundamentalism, but they give generously to mission work, including hospitals, schools and other good work in Africa and elsewhere. I am not Jewish, of course, but respect Judaism. I strongly detest Muslim terrorism, but there is much about moderate Islam that I can respect. I have been in India and stayed with a ‘Christian’ Hindu family in that they seemed to live by the Golden Rule and had deep spiritual roots. I was in Korea where Christianity has flourished, especially Protestantism, but I also felt warm toward the deep spirituality I saw within Buddhism. We have a Sikh temple near here, and no group does more for an area soup kitchen than these Sikhs do. And I could go on and on. We’re all part of God’s diverse family and need to view ourselves in that way.

** May God bless Christians of all varieties, Jews, Muslims, and decent. loving people of every creed, color, culture and country.** Let’s work to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. I feel that Christ would want that. Too often Christians (and others) have preached love, humility and peace while actually promoting bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

 

[CMatt25]

If there are differences then how can on be “united in Him” if you can not agree about Him at all.

This is just the sort of wishy washy mind games that chased me away from the protestants.

Can’t agree about Him at all?

But the how united for me is easy. The Apostle Paul says in 1Cor 12:3 “And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord”, except by the Holy Spirit”.

1Cor 12: 4-6 “There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.”

1Cor 12:12 “As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ”

And in Ephesians 2:14 the Apostle tells us it is Christ who is our peace and it is He Whom breaks down the walls of hostility.

Brother, we walk by faith. Not by sight.

It is interesting to me how you describe this as the “wishy washy mind games that chased me away from the protestants”. When it is the “I’m right, Your wrong” game that chased me away from the faithful practice of your faith. Yet as Roy has explained we each have different needs in faith. Some perhaps need things spelled out. And that’s fine. Others in faith look towards the vastness of God in comparison to our humanly finite minds.

But again let all Christians walk together united in the faith that Christ is Lord and Savior. And may all of God’s people who grace the His green earth on life’s journey, grow to love and treat each other as we ourselves would like to be treated.

God bless you Brother David and all of us. And peace.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do not know if this is an attempt to answer my question but if it is it has failed. It is a total side stepping of what I actually asked.

Just to reiterate

1. Obviously, many people prefer a religion that is emphatic about what to believe. This is true of numerous Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and others. Therefore they embrace authoritarian-style religion. However, some of us have difficulty with that as we feel it limits our exciting exploration of different theologies, faiths, etc. I was raised in a mixed Catholic-Protestant tradition (French Canadian Catholic heritage on one side, New England Congregationalist on the other). I’ve arrived at the conclusion, over the years, that for me the UCC, the UMC, Presbyterian USA, and Disciples of Christ permit considerable freedom. So do Episcopalians and many Lutherans (ELCA) - though I’m more into ‘low church’ worship than heavy, prayerbook ritual myself. But different strokes for different folks.

2. The other day I was discussing matters of faith with a woman I met. When we realized that we had major differences, her comment was simply: “Same God!” I like that. We have the same God. My emphasis is on God as beyond human understanding. As I recall, Psalm 119 has a beautiful verse or two pointing that out. Frankly, many people need to know more about God than I believe humankind can know. Most of our spiritual ancestors had no idea of the huge dimensions of this universe, so they actually believed that God was up in the sky somewhere, that hell was in the bowels of the earth, etc. Today we know better. Too many good people have not altered their theology to fit the new knowledge. They depend upon Church Fathers and others, brilliant for their era, who built their theologies on very skimpy knowledge. I have read many of them - from St. Clement and Origen to Tertullian and Augustine - and wrote my undergraduate thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas, Sorry, but I believe they are given too much weight in our modern world. I recall the shock I felt when I found that Aquinas favored the execution of heretics. How does that fit into Christian thinking today? I read regularly how the Pope is pushing for religious freedom

3. When I attend mass, as I frequently do, I find that Catholic priests and laity differ considerably among themselves. One priest (recently retired) was firm in his defense of gay rights, for example. He also was outspoken in opposing US involvement in war. In this area I believe that Catholics may be more ‘liberal’ on many issues - social as well as economic - than many Protestants. They certainly vote more Democratic than Protestants do, although some mainline Protestants have abandoned their GOP heritage - most come from Republican backgrounds, often going back to the Civil War - and voted for Obama. Interesting and complex situation both religiously and politically. It will be interesting to watch how it play out in years to come.

4. My commitment is to interreligious understanding and mutual respect. While I may disagree with some Catholic teachings, I respect the wonderful work the RCC had done and continues to do here and around the world. I certainly don’t go along with Protestant fundamentalism, but they give generously to mission work, including hospitals, schools and other good work in Africa and elsewhere. I am not Jewish, of course, but respect Judaism. I strongly detest Muslim terrorism, but there is much about moderate Islam that I can respect. I have been in India and stayed with a ‘Christian’ Hindu family in that they seemed to live by the Golden Rule and had deep spiritual roots. I was in Korea where Christianity has flourished, especially Protestantism, but I also felt warm toward the deep spirituality I saw within Buddhism. We have a Sikh temple near here, and no group does more for an area soup kitchen than these Sikhs do. And I could go on and on. We’re all part of God’s diverse family and need to view ourselves in that way.

May God bless Christians of all varieties, Jews, Muslims, and decent. loving people of every creed, color, culture and country. Let’s work to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. I feel that Christ would want that. Too often Christians (and others) have preached love, humility and peace while actually promoting bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

Here is my question once again.

Let me ask you this Roy. What do you do when the Methodist sitting next to you has views that are dismetrically opposed to your views. Where both can not be right. What happens then?

When one says that Gay Marriages are ok and Gay cleric is acceptable and another stands against those, how do you treat this?

It can not be the “Same God” as these two areas I have put forward for consideration are diametrically opposed, one can not hold both of these views in their mind at the same time. God can not either as he would be opposed to Himself which is impossible.

So how do you “big tent” protestants deal with this?

I understand if you do not wish to entertain this line of dicussion and if so just say so and I will leave it be.

 

[Harpazo]

I do not know if this is an attempt to answer my question but if it is it has failed. It is a total side stepping of what I actually asked.

Here is my question once again.

When one says that Gay Marriages are ok and Gay cleric is acceptable and another stands against those, how do you treat this?

It can not be the “Same God” as these two areas I have put forward for consideration are diametrically opposed, one can not hold both of these views in their mind at the same time. God can not either as he would be opposed to Himself which is impossible.

So how do you “big tent” protestants deal with this?

I understand if you do not wish to entertain this line of dicussion and if so just say so and I will leave it be.

You can ask this on just about every issue (abortion, marriage, any theological dispute) and you’ll get the same relativistic and spineless spirit that is eating away at western civilization: “Who am I to say what’s right? Why can’t we just believe in Christ and agree to disagree?” It’s basically tantamount to plugging your ears with your fingers saying “LALALA! I’m not listening. LALALA!”

May God open their eyes and ears to the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Roy5]

ByzCath

 1. I find it interesting when I find someone who disagrees with me re religion. This is one reason I post here on CAF.  I find it stimulates my brain - and I hope yours, too.

  2. You're assuming that I attend a Methodist church. This openness to different ways of interpreting faith matters exists in a variety of mainline denominations. I actually attend a UCC church and a Catholic church more often than a UMC church. But this thread is on Methodism, so that's my focus here, too. I do admire much about Methodism, though it has its problems/challenges like all the other churches.  

 3. What makes you think that God isn't tolerant when it comes to theological differences? I firmly believe that the Lord accepts people of all faiths who are 'Good Samaritans'. After all, the Samaritans were 'evil heretics' in the eyes of the Jews of that time, but Christ chose a Samaritan as a prime example of one who inherits eternal life. Reread the last verses of Matthew 25 to get another expression of Christ's view.

  God bless everybody. I have to run.

 

[CMatt25]

I recall the shock I felt when I found that Aquinas favored the execution of heretics.

Wow am I glad that is no longer the case. As I’ve been considered heretical and maybe my faith steps even worse! :bigyikes:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7582147&postcount=6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7624228&postcount=95

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

ByzCath

1. I find it interesting when I find someone who disagrees with me re religion. This is one reason I post here on CAF. I find it stimulates my brain - and I hope yours, too.

It also stimulates my mind but not as much as for others as I see the “mental gymnastics” they must go through to believe as they do.

1. You’re assuming that I attend a Methodist church. This openness to different ways of interpreting faith matters exists in a variety of mainline denominations. I actually attend a UCC church and a Catholic church more often than a UMC church. But this thread is on Methodism, so that’s my focus here, too. I do admire much about Methodism, though it has its problems/challenges like all the other churches.

I did not assume anything. All I assumed is that you are a member of “big tent” protestantism. You used Methodist in your post so I responded in kind. As you have pointed out that is what this thread is about.

1. What makes you think that God isn’t tolerant when it comes to theological differences? I firmly believe that the Lord accepts people of all faiths who are ‘Good Samaritans’. After all, the Samaritans were ‘evil heretics’ in the eyes of the Jews of that time, but Christ chose a Samaritan as a prime example of one who inherits eternal life. Reread the last verses of Matthew 25 to get another expression of Christ’s view.

And here goes those “mental gymnastics”. God can not be opposed to Himself. He can not tolerate non-Truth. I believe that when you use the word tolerate you are using the political correct form rather than what it actually means.

So by this answer I take it to believe that God can be opposed to Himself, so I would put forward that we do not worship the “Same God”. Christ spoke the Truth and let us know that there is one Truth out there. Opposing views can not stand together, it is inconsistent with true Christanity to believe that they cant.

One last way for me to express this. God is Truth. Falsehood can not reside within Truth. Therefore God can not allow nor tolerate falsehood to reside next to Truth.

The only way to argue against this is to somehow prove that God is not Truth, but then you would not have God afterwards, you would have some man made construct.

Thanks for the stimulating talk but I fear if I try to discuss this with you any more I will pull the mental equivlant of a hamstring.

 

[Roy5]

I believe I’ve said several times that my honest view is that probably all of us are limited by our finite natures to any understanding of ultimate truth. Maybe we have some of it. Remember the parable of the three men (as I recall) and the elephant?

Anyway, no, of course God would not contradict himself. But he probably looks down at us poor mortals and may even laugh a bit - maybe cry - when he sees how we can become so dogmatic and defensively tribal when none of us knows all that much.

One Bible verse always did confuse me, though, not directly related to this thread. Why did God repent that he made man (Gen. 6:6)? Gen. 1 suggests that he checked out his creation and everything was good. Had he really made a mistake? Then, too, why would a loving, forgiving compassionate God drown everybody but Noah and his family? Hm! I had a problem with that even as a young child, when I wondered why we sang about the love of God while I had become aware that this same God murdered a lot of innocent children (yes, even children still in the womb) - and animals, too!

 This Noah story and other parts of the Bible have made me a bit of a skeptic, as you can see. But I do my best to follow Jesus when he said we should love God and one another, even those who think I stubbornly and arrogantly refuse to assent to the one true faith!
 
  God bless everybody!

 

[ThatKrazyPagan]

The Methodist church I was raised in (but left in college - that’s another topic entirely) was very Catholic-like. Service was much like mass, with weekly communion, passing of the Peace, and just about as many songs as a mass. We had a few Catholic members, including a nun. One of the Catholic members acted as my sponsor through confirmation.

There were a few key differences.
First, we had pastors rather than priests, and, as such, they could marry, be women, and even be in open gay relationships.
Second, communion was not the same as the Eucharist, as “Everyone is welcome at the table of the Lord in this place,” (words spoken to bring everyone to communion every week), the bread was blessed bread but only symbolic of the body of Christ, and there was a wine side and a grape juice side (again only symbolic of the blood of Christ).
Third, church teachings were not as strict as in Catholicism, allowing an individual to come to his own conclusions.
Honestly, I can’t think of any more big differences between Methodism and Catholicism. My mom and sister are practically Catholic now and attend mass about as frequently as they attend the church I grew up a part of.

 

[Roy5]

ThatKrazyPagan

Methinks you must have been in a very unusual Methodist church - or you now attend an unusual Catholic Church - to find them that much alike.

You do point out what probably is the greatest difference. Methodists permit a wide divergence of views on matters of doctrines. Methodists can be (and are) 'strict-believing' Christians, or they may be very liberal in their theological views. (Well, actually I have found the same differences among Catholics, though the CC insists upon conformity in matters of basic doctrine.)

Few Methodists have communion at their principal worship service every Sunday, though some have - say - an early service with communion, usually poorly attended. I don't know of any Methodist church that offers a choice of wine or grapejuice, but that may be true in some instances - but rare. They do not view the communion elements as Christ himself (transubstantiation), but the communion service does remind them, of course, that Christ is present always, as he promised. Yes, Methodist pastors extend the invitation to the Lord's Table to all present, leaving it up to God whether or not the communion if 'valid'. This decision is not made by the church or the minister. 

There is a small 'high church' faction among Methodists, most typically the St. Luke Order. Maybe the pastor of your college church was affiliated with it??? It would resemble the Episcopalians and Lutherans in many ways. Most Methodist churches I know are more like those of the Presbyterians or the United Church of Christ (a merger including Congregationalists). This closeness is very evident in places like Canada and Australia where most Methodists, Congregationalists and Presbyterians have merged.  

The fact that ministers in Methodism may marry and that women are ordained are not to be seen as minor differences. I believe there are roughly 10,000 women clergy in the United Methodist Church. As for gay clergy, the Methodists do not permit the ordination of practicing gays/lesbians. 

 I am surprised that anyone would suggest that the beliefs and practices of the Methodists are like those of the Catholics. They are distinctly Protestant, the second largest Protestant group (after Baptists) in the USA. Generally speaking, they are more liberal than Baptists, especially the Southern Baptists.

 

[achmafooma]

ThatKrazyPagan

Methinks you must have been in a very unusual Methodist church - or you now attend an unusual Catholic Church - to find them that much alike.

I would agree that this probably isn’t a good example of a typical Methodist church. I don’t doubt your experience, ThatKrazyPagan, but most Methodist churches aren’t very much like what you described.

Having said that, the ‘formal’ Methodist service is very much like a Catholic Mass, at least on paper (there are examples in beginning of the UMC Hymnal)…so in a strongly liturgical Methodist church, there would be many surface similarities with the Episcopal/Anglican service or Catholic Mass. Having said that, in my many years as a Methodist, attending or visiting probably fifty different UMC churches, I only saw the traditional, liturgical service out of the hymnal used a small handful of times. Often parts of it were used, but with many of the prayers, readings, and/or hymns removed. Often nothing more than the basic overall structure remained.

I’m not addressing the theology of the service, or the theology of the communion, or the structural organization of the denomination…all of which differ *immensely *from that of the Catholic Church. But on the surface, a high liturgical Methodist service would look very much like a Catholic Mass…if you can find a Methodist church that still follows the liturgy.

God bless you!

 

[Roy5]

Still follows the liturgy? My own impression is that American Methodists were even less liturgical years ago. They were more ‘pentecostal’ in flavor when Methodism was sweeping across the nation in the 19th century. They used to call them ‘shouting Methodists’ - looked down upon by the more established Protestant denominations at the time.

The latest Methodist hymnal is somewhat more liturgical, certainly in its service of communion - and baptism, too. Those most interested in liturgy are inclined to gravitate to committees that work on revising hymnals and such. But the differences between Methodism and Catholicism are so many and so great that to regard it as somehow close to Catholicism is highly questionable, at best. The typical Methodist church includes a few standard liturgical elements but has enormous latitude for spontaneity and/or prayers written by individual pastors or worship leaders, etc.

They used to joke that if you take an Episcopalian and a Baptist and get them into a burlap bag, shake the bag well, you come out with two Methodists! Strong hints of liturgy along with strong hints of frontier evangelism that still persist. Wesley was more liturgical, but the Circuit Riders didn't carry vestments, etc., as they crisscrossed America on horseback. I heard one lifelong employee of Cokebury, the Methodist supply house, comment that the greatest change she witnessed over many years was the increase use of vestments among Methodist clergy. This meant primarily that they went from unrobed to robed, a robe and a stole perhaps, but certainly not nearly all the vestments priests wear.

 It puzzles me when some Catholics seem to regard Methodism as quite similar to Catholicism. It just ain't so. Methodism permits a wide variety of worship formats, including 'home grown' liturgies, and they range from fundamentalists to those with a very liberal theology. John Wesley said 'think and let think' and "if your heart is right, if you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together' (approximate quote). The level of tolerance within Methodism is very high. That will trouble those who prefer a church which claims to teach the 'full truth' and delight those who treasure individual and independent thinking in the religious arena.

 

[ThatKrazyPagan]

Well, they’re a hell of a lot more similar than Mormon services are to either, or Muslim prayers, or pagan rituals (the full extent of religious gatherings I’ve attended as an adult). Sorry, I guess I’m a “lumper” raised in a very Catholic-like Methodist church, and my (name removed by moderator)ut was not welcome.

 

[achmafooma]

Still follows the liturgy? My own impression is that American Methodists were even less liturgical years ago. They were more ‘pentecostal’ in flavor when Methodism was sweeping across the nation in the 19th century. They used to call them ‘shouting Methodists’ - looked down upon by the more established Protestant denominations at the time.

Roy - mea culpa ;-). I was Methodist from my Baptism in 1993 (when I was in 5th Grade) until my conversion to Catholicism in 2009. The Pastor who Baptized me was an older gentleman who cared very much about keeping a more formal, liturgical style. I, perhaps wrongly, assumed that Methodism was more liturgical in-nature in the past based on what I picked up from him. Thinking about it now, I realize that one pastor does not make a pattern!

As I said though, the more liturgical style churches were a very small minority of my UMC experiences…basically that first church (before the pastor was reassigned) and one other. As you say, the vast majority had wide latitude at the discretion of the pastor, and picked up a more ‘mixed’ liturgical/pentecostal feel that really defies categorization. For what it’s worth, my experiences were mostly in churches of the Virginia Conference. In the years before my conversion to the Catholic Church I served as a lay delegate to the Virginia Conference, and I ‘got around’ quite a bit and visited many churches in the Conference.

Let me take this opportunity to reiterate one thing I said much earlier in the thread: I have much love and respect for our Methodist brethren. I have my criticisms, and I moved-on after much prayer and study to Catholicism (which I feel is a fuller, truer expression of the faith), but Methodism will always be the place that I entered into a relationship with Christ. I was Baptized and Married in the UMC, and the various UMC pastors and laity I have encountered all helped lead me where God wanted me to be. I have many more positive than negative things to say about the UMC.

God bless you!

 

[Roy5]

As someone with a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage, I have been interested the differences between the two for decades. There is much about Catholicism that is appealing, such as its unity under the papal office. What appeals to me about mainline Protestantism is the freedom to think individually. I could never be a fundamentalist and have trouble both with styles of Catholicism and Protestantism that insist upon conformity. Speaking only for myself, I treasure the right to come to my own conclusions, though, in all honesty, my wonder at this mammoth, majestic, miraculous and mysterious universe leaves me both with awe for our creator God but also a deep skepticism about any theological system which claims to understand it all.

 What troubles me most about traditional Catholicism is that it puts such an emphasis upon tradition. I've read the Church Fathers, so often cited, and while they were brilliant for their era their lack of powerful telescopes or any microscopes led them to false premises in many areas. Now and then they show flashes of insight, but more often they are loaded down by the three-tier view of the world - heaven up there, hell down there, etc. I am not ready to be boxed in by such primitive theology based on sincere but naive and mistaken premises. 

 My trouble with sola scriptura Protestantism is that it takes the Bible too literally. Did my loving, forgiving God really command Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of cities like Jericho and Ai? Did the Lord actually tell King Saul to murder every living Amalekite? In the New Testament, what about Paul's admonition that women should be silent in the church - or the NT advice that slaves should obey their masters?

 Methodism, Presbyterianism, the UCC, the Episcopalians and others seem so reasonable in that they generally provide parishioners lots of room for freedom of thought. Attend one of their Bible studies and there is rarely the idea that you have to believe this or that. In contrast Protestant fundamentalists and Catholic traditionalists insist that there is only one way, and it is their way. All other expressions of Christianity are wrong. I have trouble with that mindset. I am content to live with the faith that God is our strength and our redeemer, but suggest that it may be arrogant to think that any of us have a real and/or full understanding of God. Yes, I even respect the efforts of non-Christian faiths to explain the mysteries that we're faced with. 

Too often religion preaches love, humility and peace while it promotes bigotry, arrogance and hostility. This is true of fundamentalism, whether in its Protestant or Catholic forms. Actually, in my personal relationships I find most mainline Protestants and most Catholics diversified in their religious thinking, people who question any claims of infallibility, people who (like me) profess both wonder and ignorance when it comes to real understanding of this marvelous creation. But a deep faith is sufficient without having all questions answered.   

 God bless people of every faith who seek to live kind, compassionate, and faithful lives. I spent awhile with a Hindu family in India, and of they don't get to heaven I should worry. I'm sure that God looks at our hearts at not at our doctrines or church connections.