Mexican Catholicism... idolizes Our Lady of Guadalupe?

[LayingHands]

I can’t speak for the original poster who you are questioning, however from my vantagepoint, to use more current terms, I’d describe it as the Church being an early proponant of recycling.

Rather than discard the statues, they re-used them. They no longer were seen as images of former pagan gods and goddesses, but were re-dedicated to be examples of Christian Saints. So it was not a matter of converting the worship of Isis to the veneration of our Lady, but taking a piece of art that was originally a representation of Isis, and dropping the connotation or connection to Isis and repurposing it as a reminder of the Mother of God, Mary most holy.

Exactly…recycling, huh?

 

[LayingHands]

It’s always unhealthy–and, frankly, wrong–to venerate any saint to the point of overshadowing the worship of God, especially when mention is not made of the saint’s connection to Christ’s virtues or something like that.

Fortunately, for all the Latin Catholic nations of the world, we do know who she is and that she is the Mother, of Our Lord Jesus Christ…frankly, I don’t get it…we pray to other Saints, maybe the Archangels, any angels, to carry our prayers to GOD and present our petitions to Him, for His mercy and grace…why is Our Lady of Guadalupe as Mary, Mother of Jesus…any different? And whether you crawl on your knees (as penance and austerity) or prostrate yourself fully within a CC, everyone should be allowed to pray to GOD, as they want…

 

[LayingHands]

It’s always unhealthy–and, frankly, wrong–to venerate any saint to the point of overshadowing the worship of God, especially when mention is not made of the saint’s connection to Christ’s virtues or something like that.

I don’t understand this?..maybe you are unaware that she is Mary, Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ…I’m not sure, but, I thought all Latin Catholics knew this?..

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

One thing to remember is that for many Mexicans, Our Lady of Guadalupe is as much a national symbol as a religious one. The tilma was carried into many battles before finally being reposed inside a frame in the basilica. She is a symbol of Mexico, and most Mexicans love their country as we do ours. Many Mexicans who do not practice their faith, as well as many Protestants and Evangelicals, still treat the image with respect as we do with our flag. However, for most Mexicans, she represents a miraculous happening by which God, through Mary, sanctified the land and ended the evils of Aztec worship.

 

[OxygenMan]

Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying, futhermore, it is part of Greek’s written history…

They did not transfer worship of goddesses over to the Holy Mother. They converted to Christianity and rightly honored her as a saint.

 

[LayingHands]

They did not transfer worship of goddesses over to the Holy Mother. They converted to Christianity and rightly honored her as a saint.

They rightly fought for their lives because they did not want to be converted!

How innocent, you make this sound. Conversion for the Greeks from all their gods and godddesses was not a simple process and it certainly did not occur overnight and without substantial bloodshed…you make their conversion to christianity sound as simple as the Spanish Iquisition?! Early Christianity converted mostly through threat, torture and death!

Do not confuse people with this truth, please, we need to remember the truth…the greek temples were closed down by force and death…the majority of temples were converted along with the goddess statute to reflect Mary, Mother of Jesus Christ, to give the newly converted greeks, a woman to include within the prayers, of their forced conversion.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

They rightly fought for their lives because they did not want to be converted!

How innocent, you make this sound. Conversion for the Greeks from all their gods and godddesses was not a simple process and it certainly did not occur overnight and without substantial bloodshed…you make their conversion to christianity sound as simple as the Spanish Iquisition?! Early Christianity converted mostly through threat, torture and death!

Do not confuse people with this truth, please, we need to remember the truth…the greek temples were closed down by force and death…the majority of temples were converted along with the goddess statute to reflect Mary, Mother of Jesus Christ, to give the newly converted greeks, a woman to include within the prayers, of their forced conversion.

You DO have some authentic source documents to support your claim, right?

You can absolutely prove there was NO prayer to Mary or other female saints prior to the 4th century AD AND you can show us the Papal bulls and the directives that went out to the bishops and priests which required them to ‘give the pagans a woman to worship’.

I’ll wait.

 

[PacoG]

*Do you think Mexican Catholics idolize Our Lady of Guadalupe to the point of turning her into a goddess? *

In South Texas, we have a very popular Marian shrine–Our Lady of San Juan del Valle in San Juan, Texas. Arguably, the second or third most popular Hispanic Marian shrine in North America (after Guadalupe and probably tied with San Juan de los Lagos and Zapopan in Guadalajara). From what I have read, the number of visitors at the San Juan Basilica has significantly increased as travel in Mexico has become increasingly dangerous.

The interesting thing is that you do not see that level of fanaticism at San Juan. You see people coming from all over to ask the Virgin for her help and intercession. However, you don’t see people walking on their knees.

 

[Ubenedictus]

In South Texas, we have a very popular Marian shrine–Our Lady of San Juan del Valle in San Juan, Texas. Arguably, the second or third most popular Hispanic Marian shrine in North America (after Guadalupe and probably tied with San Juan de los Lagos and Zapopan in Guadalajara). From what I have read, the number of visitors at the San Juan Basilica has significantly increased as travel in Mexico has become increasingly dangerous.

The interesting thing is that you do not see that level of fanaticism at San Juan. You see people coming from all over to ask the Virgin for her help and intercession. However, you don’t see people walking on their knees.

pagcoG did i read ‘fanatism’ in your post?, did you read past posts? If you wish to talk about fanatism you should start from the desert fathers and look down history, check the saints. By the time u have called a good majority of the saints fanatics then you can call the mexicans fanatics.

Sorry i this post seem harsh, i really dont like the word ‘fanatism’ especially when it is wrongly used.
Ubenedictus

 

[PacoG]

pagcoG did i read ‘fanatism’ in your post?, did you read past posts? If you wish to talk about fanatism you should start from the desert fathers and look down history, check the saints. By the time u have called a good majority of the saints fanatics then you can call the mexicans fanatics.

Sorry i this post seem harsh, i really dont like the word ‘fanatism’ especially when it is wrongly used.
Ubenedictus

First, I’m reporting this.

Second, did you even read my post. Did you even get my point? My point was that you don’t see the same level of fervor from the Mexican-Americans at Our Lady of San Juan del Valle as you see at Our Lady of Guadalupe. You don’t see people walking on their knees there.

Finally, the name is PacoG not pagcoG. I don’t get the pun or the insult you are trying to make by misspelling my name.

I’m going to stop here before I get in trouble for making a really uncharitable comment.

 

[maplebug55]

I love Mary! SHe is so Awesome!

she has helped so many people! Her prayers are better than mine.
so that is why I PRAY TO HER for HELP with mine!

You can never love Jesus’s Mother too much because he loves her too!

 

[TimothyH]

First, I’m reporting this.

Second, did you even read my post. Did you even get my point? My point was that you don’t see the same level of fervor from the Mexican-Americans at Our Lady of San Juan del Valle as you see at Our Lady of Guadalupe. You don’t see people walking on their knees there.

Finally, the name is PacoG not pagcoG. I don’t get the pun or the insult you are trying to make by misspelling my name.

I’m going to stop here before I get in trouble for making a really uncharitable comment.

Paco, I have to agree with Ubenedictus.

People have given their lives just trying to recover a relic of some holy person. Many have chosen death rather than to curb their zeal. Saints have walked across entire continents until their feet were bloody. We have to be careful about using the word fanatic because that label could then rightly apply to many of the saints.

And I think Ubenedictus just had a typo on your name.

-Tim-

 

[LayingHands]

You DO have some authentic source documents to support your claim, right?

You can absolutely prove there was NO prayer to Mary or other female saints prior to the 4th century AD AND you can show us the Papal bulls and the directives that went out to the bishops and priests which required them to ‘give the pagans a woman to worship’.

I’ll wait.

Actually, during this early time, the late 1st, and early 2nd, centuries, the Mystery temples and statute converted were of Egyptian Isis with her son, Horus (this depicted Mother Mary and her son, Jesus) and Roman Goddess Demeter/Ceres, Mother of All)

These articles were archealogical histories and pictures of the converted Statues within the Mystery Temple. The changes were a full blue mantle and head veil.

I know too that Theodosius 1 closed them all by decree in 392 AD. The greek gods and goddesses were the Eleusinian Mysteries, and had been around since the Greek Dark Ages 650 BC.

The last Isis Temple was destroyed around the 6th century at the Island of Philae, whereby the had ceremonies taking a statute of Isis and her son, Horus all the way to Constaninople…everything was taken to Rome…even the priests and priestesses…gotta wonder what happened to them, huh?

 

[Havard]

Basing this off of what a close friend shared with me from his Catholic missionary work in Mexico…

The devotion is not a problem. It’s great! However, there are a number of Protestant missions in Mexico that have been preying on poorly catechized Mexicans, and they do use the “we don’t pray to Mary” card, and it IS working, at least some of the time. My friend’s missionary lead him to conversations with many of these former Catholics who regurgitated that “you pray to Mary line”, and many of them did not (at least initially) see the distinction between veneration and worship.

Sadly, apparently another very successful ploy used by some of the Protestant missionaries in Mexico in converting away poorly catechized Catholics is to say that the Church turns a blind eye to the ills of alcohol, or even that it encourages it. They do this in poor areas where alcoholism is a common problem, and the favored tactic is to single out single mothers and leverage upon the abandonment or abuse these women have suffered.

 

[Cristiano]

…How innocent, you make this sound. Conversion for the Greeks from all their gods and godddesses was not a simple process and it certainly did not occur overnight and without substantial bloodshed…

Can you please provide historical evidence of such conversion to Christianity by the sword?

Pagan religions were the most apt to conversion because they did not have any major issues in adopting an extra deity.

 

[Cristiano]

…The greek gods and goddesses were the Eleusinian Mysteries, and had been around since the Greek Dark Ages 650 BC…

Just as an FYI the Eleusinian Mysteries were not the Greek deities but it was simply a rite of initiation for a couple of agrarian deities.

 

[pnewton]

Sorry i this post seem harsh, i really dont like the word ‘fanatism’ especially when it is wrongly used.
Ubenedictus

Ibelieve he used it correctly. He did not intend to elevate anyone to sainthood by the use. It can be used for those other than saints, you know. And yes, you did come across harsh and unfair. The very idea of trying to measure the emotional devotion by comparison is shaky, though. We surely can not do this across centuries.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Actually, during this early time, the late 1st, and early 2nd, centuries, the Mystery temples and statute converted were of Egyptian Isis with her son, Horus (this depicted Mother Mary and her son, Jesus) and Roman Goddess Demeter/Ceres, Mother of All)

These articles were archealogical histories and pictures of the converted Statues within the Mystery Temple. The changes were a full blue mantle and head veil.

I know too that Theodosius 1 closed them all by decree in 392 AD. The greek gods and goddesses were the Eleusinian Mysteries, and had been around since the Greek Dark Ages 650 BC.

The last Isis Temple was destroyed around the 6th century at the Island of Philae, whereby the had ceremonies taking a statute of Isis and her son, Horus all the way to Constaninople…everything was taken to Rome…even the priests and priestesses…gotta wonder what happened to them, huh?

I believe I asked for sources. What source do you cite to support your claims?

 

[Ubenedictus]

First, I’m reporting this.

Second, did you even read my post. Did you even get my point? My point was that you don’t see the same level of fervor from the Mexican-Americans at Our Lady of San Juan del Valle as you see at Our Lady of Guadalupe. You don’t see people walking on their knees there.

Finally, the name is PacoG not pagcoG. I don’t get the pun or the insult you are trying to make by misspelling my name.

I’m going to stop here before I get in trouble for making a really uncharitable comment.

first i don’t think there was a point in reporting me, i may have over reacted but i did try to be charitable.
Second i read your post and i got your point, you didnt talk about ‘level of fervor’ you wrote ‘fanatism’ i was writting about you use of the word ‘fanatism’ which i still think is not right because you cant call them fanatic because they walked on their kneels which is just a small thing compared to the saints.

And lastly it meant no insult or pun it was an error and i’m sorry about that, next time i’ll be more careful when spelling your name (there is no guaranty that i would spell it well but i’ll try maybe i’ll not be reported next time). You may want to read your post again and check your use of the word fanatism. I’m sorry about over reacting and there may be errors in this post too so i’ll be happy to be corrected.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Ibelieve he used it correctly. He did not intend to elevate anyone to sainthood by the use. It can be used for those other than saints, you know. And yes, you did come across harsh and unfair. The very idea of trying to measure the emotional devotion by comparison is shaky, though. We surely can not do this across centuries.

I think a apologised about anything that seem harse or unfair in my post i didnt mean it that way.
You wrote we cant do it across the century but that what happened, after the desert fathers came other who follow their ways if i begin to name it wouldnt end even st jean maria had is own pactice ( it worse compared to walking on kneels) and many still practice it in this century
And i wasnt measuring anything i thought my point was clear you cant call anyone a fanatics for pacticing a type of devotion that is not new or condemed but was actually used by many saints. Before u use the word ‘fanatics’ on u should atleast know their intent. Tell me if u will call the mexican fanatic because they walked on their kneel (even without knowing their intent) why wont you call u call the saint fanatics. Besides calling people ‘fanatics’ (especially when u dont know their intent) sounds like judging them. Now what do u think?